Saracens New Signings and Contract Extensions

First topic message reminder :

Just saw this annouced on Twitter and is also on the Saracens site below.

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=7345

Big signings for them with JJ and Billy Vunipola coming in

Well Smit is away, Nieto i believe retiring so thats a decent wage freed up. Hopefully they wont look to replace Smith and give Jaime George a real chance.

And who knows maybe Joubert is moving on...leaving Vunipola and Wray to compete for the 8 spot...

Whilst Sarries arent popular...there is a raft of English youngsters beginning to come through at all age grades from them....so lets see how they go.

How will Wasps replace Vunipola..do they have another young 8 coming through....will they bring in another 8...or will Haskell make that spot his own?

They help if you want to play a strong 15 all year around in multiple competitions. I'm still bitter and bitterly disappointed but I won't point fingers at the Clubs involved with the current lack of insight I have into what is happening. However there are several key questions:

How are Sarries affording this?
Can we copy them, physically and morally speaking?
Why did JJ think he'd gain from the move and how can we stop it happening next time?

Sadly CJ we've had to put up with this for years....

Yappysnap we can offer Johnston things that most other clubs can't afford because of our financial backers. Things like those away trips are big perks. Saracens are known as already mentioned as a club that takes very good care of their players.

I can understand you are upset you lost JJ but Saracens are a desirable club to go to these days and it's not just about money.


You asked why Saracens want to sign these two. Both are big, very big. It will add a bit more bulk into the Saracens pack.

There have been times when Saracens has been outbullied by bigger sides. E.g. Clermont and Racing Metro (1st half)

Chequeredjersey you can stop it happening next time by offering the player what he wants.

Do you want to copy us really? You have something good going on down at Quins.

Morally speaking what are Saracens really doing wrong?

Geordiefalcon you are indeed correct. Nieto is retiring. He can barely get in the Saracens 23 as it is anyway.


I expect Saracens to lose Smit,Nieto (retiring) probably one or two of Joubert and Saull.

Someone said Gill might go too?

Brian Moore has tweeted he finds it fishy re: the cap, but has been told by a reputable source (a rugby CEO) that they are within the cap and he trusts that source enough to believe them.

damage_13 wrote:Brian Moore has tweeted he finds it fishy re: the cap, but has been told by a reputable source (a rugby CEO) that they are within the cap and he trusts that source enough to believe them.

He actually said he finds it hard to believe. He's also said he felt it a poor show that Sarries didn't inform Quins or Wasps about the announcement.

Moore is of course a totally unbias commentator and only makes considered comments... so I'd definitely takes these comments with a unhealthy pinch of salt

Beshocked, I don't know what you are doing, so I dint know if you are doing anything wrong. I would like to see if we can copy it though as evidentally we are going to have to offer something else to keep hold of our players in the current Market. I'm sure Sarries are a very attractive club but JJ was first choice for the AP Champions who are currently leading the league again and look set to be first or second seeds in the QFs in Europe,also a club with city links and heritage just like Sarries. I can see easily why someone at a third party club might pick you but not why one of our number would want to leave

Chequeredjersey you are indeed correct but maybe James Johnston is sick of losing to Saracens. If I can't beat them, might as well join them. That's a joke but then again is it?

Yes you might well be 1st or 2nd seeds in the HC but look at your HC group. I acknowledge that you've done well but not better than Leicester and Sarries who have had tougher opposition in my opinion.

I respect Quins and what they've done but you guys do seem to like to blow your own trumpets a bit. To be honest I do too but with our record against sides in the AP why not?

To be honest I don't know the exact reasons why he left. Perhaps Saracens offered him a free Porsche or Ferrari and house in the middle of Chelsea?

Remember JJ's brother,Census played for Saracens. I believe JJ spent some time in our academy.

Given the somewhat belligerent nature of Mr. Wray and the recent court debacle over promotion/relegation, possibly he's gone "salary cap, schmalary cap" and is paying whatever he likes and playing a game of dare with the PRL/RFU on this.
Alternatively there are inducements beyond hard cash that can probably be added (sponsored cars, relocation packages, school fees for the kids, healthcare, post rugby career options etc.) that can be added whilst remaining inside the cap.
Or of course they could just be a cvery good club to play for....

Irish Londoner wrote:Given the somewhat belligerent nature of Mr. Wray and the recent court debacle over promotion/relegation, possibly he's gone "salary cap, schmalary cap" and is paying whatever he likes and playing a game of dare with the PRL/RFU on this.
Alternatively there are inducements beyond hard cash that can probably be added (sponsored cars, relocation packages, school fees for the kids, healthcare, post rugby career options etc.) that can be added whilst remaining inside the cap.
Or of course they could just be a cvery good club to play for....

belligerent nature of Mr.Wray? Please do expand on that.

Nigel Wray is a top bloke. Down to earth sports fan.

You can call me belligerent on occasion sure but N.Wray? Not in my opinion.

I agree with the rest of what you say though.

Its all irrelevant anyway guys cos its our title next year...when the wee club on the borders finally flexes its muscles

beshocked wrote:
I respect Quins and what they've done but you guys do seem to like to blow your own trumpets a bit.

Oh Hi Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot, how do you do?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its all irrelevant anyway guys cos its our title next year...when the wee club on the borders finally flexes its muscles

That would be good. You need to strike a blow for Northern clubs.

At the moment it seems like the "London" clubs and Leicester/Saints hold the power.

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey you are indeed correct but maybe James Johnston is sick of losing to Saracens. If I can't beat them, might as well join them. That's a joke but then again is it?

In the past 12 months it's one AP away win each. Had seats at both games. JJ was our TH prop at both. Agree with most of what you've said, but this is pish.

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:
I respect Quins and what they've done but you guys do seem to like to blow your own trumpets a bit.

Oh Hi Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot, how do you do?

You didn't read the sentence after did you?

AlastairW wrote:

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey you are indeed correct but maybe James Johnston is sick of losing to Saracens. If I can't beat them, might as well join them. That's a joke but then again is it?

In the past 12 months it's one AP away win each. Had seats at both games. JJ was our TH prop at both. Agree with most of what you've said, but this is pish.

I meant the last 4 seasons actually. Something like 7 in 8 won by Saracens. Each to their own. You don't want to look too far back. I can understand that.

We all normally look at the stats and arguments that favour us.

Bathite I acknowledged I blow my own trumpet.

beshocked wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey you are indeed correct but maybe James Johnston is sick of losing to Saracens. If I can't beat them, might as well join them. That's a joke but then again is it?

In the past 12 months it's one AP away win each. Had seats at both games. JJ was our TH prop at both. Agree with most of what you've said, but this is pish.

I meant the last 4 seasons actually. Something like 7 in 8 won by Saracens. Each to their own. You don't want to look too far back. I can understand that.

We all normally look at the stats and arguments that favour us.

Bathite I acknowledged I blow my own trumpet.

Fair do's. I don't tend to look back any further than 12 months (maybe a bit longer than that taking in the full last season if you will) in any games tbh as when you take development, new players, etc, etc into it can be a totally 'different' team if you get my drift.

.. Don't you worry! We'll return this seasons away win in March . Was looking at tickets today actually, the new stadium rather intrigues me.

As I say, I don't necessarily think we are a better club than Sarries, but I can't see us as anything other than equals and given the choice between 2 equal bus, both in similar places in the league and in Europe (admittedly we had an easier group but you beat the team put out in front of you) and in terms of long term prospects, it disappoints me that a player goes against club loyalty. Especially to rivals like Sarries and to a club in the same city. There's got to be a reason and we have to know what it is to better deal with it in future. Let's not make this about who beats whom in the league- it is clear that Saracens and Quins are very similar clubs in terms of quality and size and though your gamestyle see us struggle sometimes, don't forget Wembley last year

AlastairW I can understand that POV. With Quins glittering 12 months why look back further? I respect you guys -mainly because of your mental toughness and ability to win which we also have. Leicester have that too.

I thought your best performance this season was vs Leicester at WR.

True there are new players but the backbone of the side generally stays the same.

I do have some doubts about the new stadium but I hope these doubts are ironed out in the future.

Is Jackson Wray related to Nigel btw? And as Billy V goes to Sarries, might he be on the Market?

ChequeredJersey wrote:As I say, I don't necessarily think we are a better club than Sarries, but I can't see us as anything other than equals and given the choice between 2 equal bus, both in similar places in the league and in Europe (admittedly we had an easier group but you beat the team put out in front of you) and in terms of long term prospects, it disappoints me that a player goes against club loyalty. Especially to rivals like Sarries and to a club in the same city. There's got to be a reason and we have to know what it is to better deal with it in future. Let's not make this about who beats whom in the league- it is clear that Saracens and Quins are very similar clubs in terms of quality and size and though your gamestyle see us struggle sometimes, don't forget Wembley last year

True. To be honest I don't really know why JJ made the choice. Only he knows truly why.

I just don't want us going down the football rivalry route. I don't hate any club. I can understand you would be annoyed that a star player of yours went to a main rival but both Quins and Saracens are decent club sides that should be applauded.

I like the comradeship of rugby. I do wind up people on more than one occasion but I don't mean to truly offend. When I go to matches I like to chat to opposition fans and have a good day out.

Good luck to you for the rest of the AP and HC.

beshocked wrote:I do have some doubts about the new stadium

How so? Looks quite shiney by all accounts. Sports venue over-priced crap quailty grub delivered to your seat, what more does an arm-chair pundit need!?

Seats moved over the track closer to the field for Rugby games. Looks alright.

We have other reasons not to look back further- Bloodgate hardly helped the club to focus on playing rugby. But this season would imply that last season was not a blip and we are still there or there abouts, as long as we can deal with the next few busy months and a lot of games being played by key players. We all knew strength in depth could be an issue and JJ leaving really doesn't help that

ChequeredJersey wrote:Is Jackson Wray related to Nigel btw? And as Billy V goes to Sarries, might he be on the Market?

No he is not related. He might be on the market but of the backrowers most likely to leave it's Saull then possibly Joubert.

Rumour is Saull is going to Exeter.

beshocked wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:As I say, I don't necessarily think we are a better club than Sarries, but I can't see us as anything other than equals and given the choice between 2 equal bus, both in similar places in the league and in Europe (admittedly we had an easier group but you beat the team put out in front of you) and in terms of long term prospects, it disappoints me that a player goes against club loyalty. Especially to rivals like Sarries and to a club in the same city. There's got to be a reason and we have to know what it is to better deal with it in future. Let's not make this about who beats whom in the league- it is clear that Saracens and Quins are very similar clubs in terms of quality and size and though your gamestyle see us struggle sometimes, don't forget Wembley last year

True. To be honest I don't really know why JJ made the choice. Only he knows truly why.

I just don't want us going down the football rivalry route. I don't hate any club. I can understand you would be annoyed that a star player of yours went to a main rival but both Quins and Saracens are decent club sides that should be applauded.

I like the comradeship of rugby. I do wind up people on more than one occasion but I don't mean to truly offend. When I go to matches I like to chat to opposition fans and have a good day out.

Good luck to you for the rest of the AP and HC.

To you too, hope if we meet it'll be in the finals

Saull isnt near the class of Scaysbrook...but then how old is Scaysbrook now?

AlastairW wrote:

beshocked wrote:I do have some doubts about the new stadium

How so? Looks quite shiney by all accounts. Sports venue over-priced crap quailty grub delivered to your seat, what more does an arm-chair pundit need!?

Seats moved over the track closer to the field for Rugby games. Looks alright.

Traffic worries me. The road to the car park in Allianz Park is narrow. Parking and getting out could potentially be a nightmare. Not sure there is a train station near by. That's my main worry as well as the action being further away due to the track.

I have heard the pitch looks good though.

I've been impressed by Quins strength in depth.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:As I say, I don't necessarily think we are a better club than Sarries, but I can't see us as anything other than equals and given the choice between 2 equal bus, both in similar places in the league and in Europe (admittedly we had an easier group but you beat the team put out in front of you) and in terms of long term prospects, it disappoints me that a player goes against club loyalty. Especially to rivals like Sarries and to a club in the same city. There's got to be a reason and we have to know what it is to better deal with it in future. Let's not make this about who beats whom in the league- it is clear that Saracens and Quins are very similar clubs in terms of quality and size and though your gamestyle see us struggle sometimes, don't forget Wembley last year

True. To be honest I don't really know why JJ made the choice. Only he knows truly why.

I just don't want us going down the football rivalry route. I don't hate any club. I can understand you would be annoyed that a star player of yours went to a main rival but both Quins and Saracens are decent club sides that should be applauded.

I like the comradeship of rugby. I do wind up people on more than one occasion but I don't mean to truly offend. When I go to matches I like to chat to opposition fans and have a good day out.

Good luck to you for the rest of the AP and HC.

To you too, hope if we meet it'll be in the finals

I agree but Tigers especially might have something to say about that!

Scaysbrook is 31. If he is so good why has he not been considered by England?

Not as good as Ksevic or Fraser is he?

No maybe not...but i still think he's a cracking 7 and is better than Saull.

Im sure he was in the England squad for a wee while in his younger days just didnt quite make it.

Fraser looked very impressive v Metro...on Saturday.

Geordiefalcon Saull is being kept out by Fraser hence he's likely to leave.

Saull has got to go somewhere. He's still only 24. Plus his style doesn't suit Saracens as much as our other backrowers. With the right environment I think Saull could push on.

Haven't heard of him coming to Chiefs but then i don't have any contacts at SP. Would be more than welcome down here, good young player that's hit a bit of a roadblock in his career. Perfect Exeter material.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s548.htm?1098,13712090

Effervescing Elephant this is where I heard the rumour.

Scaysbrook was (from memory) player of the U20 WC when he played, he never quite kicked on though. He was behind Lipman at Bath for a while but never really did enough to oust him.

Great domestic level 7 though, ideal as he doesn't go missing with England and miss chunks of the season.

Saull needs to move to kick on a bit doesn't he, if he comes back into form him and Johnson at Exe would be a good flanker combo.

On the JJ thing, I would be really interested to know what Sarries could offer that Quins couldn't. We will probably never know but it does seem like a sidways step in many ways.

Actually, come to think of it, i believe Scays is yet to renew his contract at Chiefs...

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:
I respect Quins and what they've done but you guys do seem to like to blow your own trumpets a bit.

Oh Hi Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot, how do you do?

You didn't read the sentence after did you?

It appears I've done you a disservice squire!

Definatley more starting competition for johnson at sarries, the only thing i can think of is obviously they have offered him more wonga and his brother obviously bigged it up, both these moves are probably down to elder brother influences !

AlastairW wrote:

beshocked wrote:I do have some doubts about the new stadium

How so? Looks quite shiney by all accounts. Sports venue over-priced crap quailty grub delivered to your seat, what more does an arm-chair pundit need!?

Seats moved over the track closer to the field for Rugby games. Looks alright.

One of the most noteworthy things I heard about the new stadium on the ITV highlights show was that the bar is the length of the 100m track under the stand.

sirtidychris wrote:Definatley more starting competition for johnson at sarries, the only thing i can think of is obviously they have offered him more wonga and his brother obviously bigged it up, both these moves are probably down to elder brother influences !

Yes & in Billy's case his father too I guess.

Irish Londoner wrote:Given the somewhat belligerent nature of Mr. Wray and the recent court debacle over promotion/relegation, possibly he's gone "salary cap, schmalary cap" and is paying whatever he likes and playing a game of dare with the PRL/RFU on this.
Alternatively there are inducements beyond hard cash that can probably be added (sponsored cars, relocation packages, school fees for the kids, healthcare, post rugby career options etc.) that can be added whilst remaining inside the cap.
Or of course they could just be a cvery good club to play for....

All of those things which are financial incentives have to be declared and come in under the salary cap. Last season I went to a game with a fella who through his business has links with a number of Premiership clubs, including Worcester Warriors, Saracens and Leicester Tigers, as well as a number of Premiership and Championship football clubs. He has had financial involvement to varying levels, and we discussed the salary cap at length. There are ways around it, but it's not as simple as those things that you have listed.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Definatley more starting competition for johnson at sarries, the only thing i can think of is obviously they have offered him more wonga and his brother obviously bigged it up, both these moves are probably down to elder brother influences !

Yes & in Billy's case his father too I guess.

Billy and Mako's dad is their agent. There are some fairly uncomplimentary comments about him on the DW forum. Needless to say Wasps fans are very disappointed, and angry, with Billy V.

Dai Young's comments...

here

Quins website sees COS state it was because we couldn't pay him enough. I'm just surprised that Sarries can but obviously Nieto and Smit leaving left enough space. Best of luck to him at Saracens, let's see what we do with the cap room

With more and more talk about a congested season and player fatigue, I wonder how much of a draw Saracens' player rotation policy is to players thinking about being at their best for the duration of the season and the longevity of their career.

Hello all
This is modern rugby Im afraid. Loyalty to clubs is practically dead, and has been since the sport became a profession. If you consider it in this light, that this is just a job, how many of you wouldnt leave your present employer for a better deal?
Im not saying I like it by the way. Ive played at the same club for 20 years, but even at our level we have lads who have never known rugby without the wad of cash at the end of the game. Sad...

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:
I respect Quins and what they've done but you guys do seem to like to blow your own trumpets a bit.

Oh Hi Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot, how do you do?

Haha, quite. But there is 'something special' going on at Sarries

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Definatley more starting competition for johnson at sarries, the only thing i can think of is obviously they have offered him more wonga and his brother obviously bigged it up, both these moves are probably down to elder brother influences !

Yes & in Billy's case his father too I guess.

Billy and Mako's dad is their agent. There are some fairly uncomplimentary comments about him on the DW forum. Needless to say Wasps fans are very disappointed, and angry, with Billy V.

Dai Young's comments...

here

I thought Young's comments were fairly restrained, and pretty decent. Sarries are going to be a helluva team next year, but I still find them impossible to love. It worries when a player of Vunipola's ability, who is being developed so well, moves at an early stage in their career, think Alex Gray languishing on the Irish bench. I hope BV finds himself back at Wasps at some point, or even better, at a resurgent Falcons!

There were some interesting suggestions on the bbc have your say page about how sarries are paying. Not going to repeat them here..

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:There were some interesting suggestions on the bbc have your say page about how sarries are paying. Not going to repeat them here..

What everyone is forgetting is that a lot of the team have been with the club for a long time, academy of before we started winning and were a mid to bottom table side.

Also some of the new ones came on board with what they saw rather tan what they were getting payed, Ashton and smit being the only BIG name signings until yesterday.

And if we were guilty of everything suggested by some foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists don't you think the RFU and PRL would have investigated and found something?

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:There were some interesting suggestions on the bbc have your say page about how sarries are paying. Not going to repeat them here..

Avoid those pseudo-boards. They are the plague, full of WUM's and ignorance. Some of the comments on all there defy belief!

Irish Londoner wrote:Given the somewhat belligerent nature of Mr. Wray and the recent court debacle over promotion/relegation, possibly he's gone "salary cap, schmalary cap" and is paying whatever he likes and playing a game of dare with the PRL/RFU on this.
Alternatively there are inducements beyond hard cash that can probably be added (sponsored cars, relocation packages, school fees for the kids, healthcare, post rugby career options etc.) that can be added whilst remaining inside the cap.
Or of course they could just be a cvery good club to play for....

I'm fairly sure that all these "add-ons" must be included within the salary cap, also pensions, remuneration of spouse, etc

Knackeredknees wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:There were some interesting suggestions on the bbc have your say page about how sarries are paying. Not going to repeat them here..

What everyone is forgetting is that a lot of the team have been with the club for a long time, academy of before we started winning and were a mid to bottom table side.

Also some of the new ones came on board with what they saw rather tan what they were getting payed, Ashton and smit being the only BIG name signings until yesterday.

And if we were guilty of everything suggested by some foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists don't you think the RFU and PRL would have investigated and found something?

And Hodgson, Wigglesworth, Brown, Strettle (well he was a big signing at the time!)... Didn't they all join the season you won the Jeff?