Castres V Ulster match thread

[neilthom7]

First topic message reminder :

So we are into the final round of group matches and this Saturday 19th January at 1.35pm Castre will take to the field V Ulster. Now Ulster are already guaranteed to qualify from the group and Castre are out but there is plenty riding on this for Ulster namely a home QF. If Ulster were to win and get the try bonus point they would definitely get a home Quarter final anything else and then it is down to other teams results as well. The biggest thing for Ulster will be to avoid any QF trips to France. The biggest worry for Ulster going into the match is now a big injury list. It is possible Ulster if all of their doubtful players don't make it will not be able to field 3 backs on the bench. So what are your predictions guys?
The match will be on Sky Sports 3 and I will update this thread with teams as we know them.

Ulster
(15-9): Gilroy; Trimble, Cave, Wallace, Allen; Pienaar, Marshall;
(1-8): Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, McComb, Diack, Henry (capt), Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): Herring, Black, Fitzpatrick, Henderson, McComish, Heaney, Jackson, Cochrane.

Castres
P Bernard, M Evans, S Bai, R Lamerat, M Garvey, R Tales, R Kockott; Y Forestier, M-A Rallier, A Peikrishvili, M Rolland, C Samson, M Babillot, P Faasalele, P Wannenburg.

Replacements: B Mach, S Taumoepeau, M Lazar, I Tekori, T Lacrampe, J Bornman, P Bonnefond, M Andreu.

[neilthom7]

Well yes it would bother me if you have 4 NIQ is a row in the same position then that is not only worrying but unacceptable but we haven't had that. If leeway is given as Kingshu said then that might work out better but with no leeway I only see journey men we had a few of them we don't want anymore. As I said I am agreed with MrsP that it's all about that tipping point when a player goes from being a help to a hindrance and really we can only know as the time approaches so maybe next season would be a better time to talk about Pienaar when we know how Jackson etc are playing. I would like to see us develop a tighthead though as Declan Fitzpatrick has been relativey injury prone recently and I don't think Macklin is up to it. The Irish sides should probably have better co operation too for example if a side had 5 or 6 quality locks and another has 1 or 2 then send one of the locks to them that will help their development.

[red_stag]

The Irish sides should probably have better co operation too for example if a side had 5 or 6 quality locks and another has 1 or 2 then send one of the locks to them that will help their development.

+1

Ian Nagle should have joined Leinster two years ago. However he missed his chance and looks like Munster are releasing him now. I always liked the idea of Peter Stringer to Connacht too.

[neilthom7]

We are a small nation so we should be helping each other out when we can the problem is there is too much politics between the provinces at times, hopefully we will grow out of that. Nagle looked like one heck of a prospect I hope one of the teams picks him up and he gets a chance and takes it. He may find himself trying to make a name in England.

[red_stag]

Im a big fan of calculated sink or swim sitatuations. I feel they bring the cream to the top.

Look at Luke Fitzgerald. Did his Leaving Cert in June 2006. 5 months later he was making his senior Irish debut.

Look at how easily Jackson has settled into the team for Ulster. Look at Henderson.

Compare that with how JJ Hanrahan is "learning" from O'Gara (as you say similar to a NIQ). I really hopes we see him get a run out this weekend against Racing Metro.

[MrsP]

Stag,

Do you think ROG is a "happy to share his knowledge and experience with the up and coming talent" kind of a player?

[Don Alfonso]

Lot of concern about Pienaar staying too long.

Dougie Howlett has been at Munster since 2008. If (IF!) Pienaar signs a one year extension, he will be gone after the same amount of time at Ulster as Dougie will have had in Munster (assuming Dougie goes at the end of this season). Obviously I have taken all Stag's panicked posts about Dougie staying too long into account...

Did we not ascertain that Marshall had played more time for his province than any other IQ scrumhalf last season? Murray and Reddan away with Ireland, Boss alternating with Reddan?

I do not want to be too reilant on Pienaar. My ideal is 15 Ulstermen playing for Ulster. And they are the best players in the world and Ireland.

Shy of that, I'll compromise.

[red_stag]

MrsP - no I think ROG is a bit too Me Me Me for that. I dont like ROG.

Don - The fact I am from Munster is irrelevenat. Haven;t I just been giving out about Mafi's role in the team.

Munster has been especially guilty of patching over the gaps with a string of foreign players at centre (Jean de Villiers, Trevor Halstead, Rua Tipoki, Lifemi Mafi, Casey Laulala)

[Artful_Dodger]

Stag how do you see this Ulster Castres game panning out, do you think Ulster will win?

[red_stag]

I actually don't think Ulster will win unfortunately (good idea lets get this back on topic!)

Mainly based on the injuries, coupled with your poor run in France.

I think it would be a huge moment for Ulster if they went and got the win though.

[MrsP]

Still looking someone to tell me how strong that Castres team is?

[neilthom7]

I can tell you MrsP that their team when the faced Racing Metro and won late on in December at home was this
Forestry, Mach Wihongi, Samson, Tekori (cap), Bornman, Caballero, Claassen, Kockott, Tales Andreu, Bai, Kirkpatrick, and Martial Dulin.
Substitutes: Bonello, Lazar, Rolland, Faasalele, Lacrampe Teulet, Cabannes, Coetzee
Make of that what you will lol

[Kingshu]

See I think stag that at center Munster have had a string of Journey men Jean de Villiers, Trevor Halstead, Rua Tipoki, Lifemi Mafi, Casey Laulala.

Without being able to offer the ones that want to stay we will see more journey men at the provinces.

Anyway this is all off topic,

Mrs P I can't tell you if its a strong Castres team or not, Max Evens hinted that it may not be, Wannenberg has been injuried a few times and hasn't had a run of games, I bet he wishes he was back in Ulster, but he's prob get less games with us if he was here! (didn't think we'd be saying that when he left!)

French teams really focus at home, for me a win is achieveable but BP is prob unrealistic. If they have a home team and an away team, and this is a weakened home team, I'd guess the weakened home team is about the same level as their away team.

given against their away team we were luckly to get a BP at home, against a teamof about the same ablity we would have to be even luckier to get the BP away. First win in France would be enough for me. let every one else worry about thier own results, just make sure of the win.

[Artful_Dodger]

They seem to rotate a lot - very difficult to decipher how strong a team this is, it looks strong enough on paper.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Still looking someone to tell me how strong that Castres team is?

The notorious headless idiot Castres team is at http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/match/167606.html MrsP.
The current incarnation is at http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/match/167670.html .

[MrsP]

Absolutely agree with that Kings.

A win, any win would be just brill!

[Kingshu]

Willaim hill have
Castres 4/5, Ulster Evens


So thier experts think it will be Castres, They are normally better than any other ex player or fan at working this out as thier living depends on it.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I think yiz have to win this one. Not just for the home QF, but because you have never won in France. It will do damage to the player's heads if they don't take this after the season yiz have had so far. Start a slide. Hit the self belief.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Willaim hill have
Castres 4/5, Ulster Evens


So thier experts think it will be Castres, They are normally better than any other ex player or fan at working this out as thier living depends on it.

William Hill are apparently swimming against the tide K'hu http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/heineken-cup/castres-v-ulster/winner . Overall according to the bookies, Ulster are marginal favourites.

[Kingshu]

good point grey tiger, to be honest I'd say they expect a weight of mone from Ulster fans, and not much on Castres, so Ulster odds are slighlty lower than thier true odds.

Therefore I'll change it to the experts have it as a 50/50 game.

ooohhh i can't wait now....

[Don Alfonso]

I actually don't think Ulster will win unfortunately (good idea lets get this back on topic!)

Mainly based on the injuries, coupled with your poor run in France.

I think it would be a huge moment for Ulster if they went and got the win though.

I oon't think the poor run in France will matter too much. I don't think we've ever had a better team, and I don't think we've ever had a more confident team. Given that the last team we lost to in France was Clermont, and it was nearly a win, there's not too much shame in last season. I don't think it's as massive a hoodoo as people are making out.

But I agree - I don't think we'll win - so many of our injuries are to first-teamers (and every fullback we have) that we will be weakened too much.

[Sin é]

Lot of concern about Pienaar staying too long.

Dougie Howlett has been at Munster since 2008. If (IF!) Pienaar signs a one year extension, he will be gone after the same amount of time at Ulster as Dougie will have had in Munster (assuming Dougie goes at the end of this season). Obviously I have taken all Stag's panicked posts about Dougie staying too long into account...

Did we not ascertain that Marshall had played more time for his province than any other IQ scrumhalf last season? Murray and Reddan away with Ireland, Boss alternating with Reddan?

I do not want to be too reilant on Pienaar. My ideal is 15 Ulstermen playing for Ulster. And they are the best players in the world and Ireland.

Shy of that, I'll compromise.

There is a difference though between players like Nacewa & Howlett (backs) and players like Botha, Afoa & Pienaar who are playing in very specialised positions. Howlett hasn't blocked Zebo development (or Nacewa Rob Kearneys) - they would both have benefited by playing alongside them.

Its not actual gametime either with regard to Marshall or Jackson - Pienaar could very easily become a crutch rather than an aid to their development and their ability to take on responsibility. At the start of the season when Pienaar was away with SA, Jackson & Marshall did great for Ulster. Now they both seem to have regressed a bit. Could that have anything to do with Pienaar's presence undermining their confidence?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

good point grey tiger, to be honest I'd say they expect a weight of mone from Ulster fans, and not much on Castres, so Ulster odds are slighlty lower than thier true odds.

Therefore I'll change it to the experts have it as a 50/50 game.

ooohhh i can't wait now....

So many good games on the cards this weekend K'hu. Once they get started at eight this evening, Saturday and Sunday mornings will drag a bit.

[Don Alfonso]

Lot of concern about Pienaar staying too long.

Dougie Howlett has been at Munster since 2008. If (IF!) Pienaar signs a one year extension, he will be gone after the same amount of time at Ulster as Dougie will have had in Munster (assuming Dougie goes at the end of this season). Obviously I have taken all Stag's panicked posts about Dougie staying too long into account...

Did we not ascertain that Marshall had played more time for his province than any other IQ scrumhalf last season? Murray and Reddan away with Ireland, Boss alternating with Reddan?

I do not want to be too reilant on Pienaar. My ideal is 15 Ulstermen playing for Ulster. And they are the best players in the world and Ireland.

Shy of that, I'll compromise.

There is a difference though between players like Nacewa & Howlett (backs) and players like Botha, Afoa & Pienaar who are playing in very specialised positions. Howlett hasn't blocked Zebo development (or Nacewa Rob Kearneys) - they would both have benefited by playing alongside them.

Its not actual gametime either with regard to Marshall or Jackson - Pienaar could very easily become a crutch rather than an aid to their development and their ability to take on responsibility. At the start of the season when Pienaar was away with SA, Jackson & Marshall did great for Ulster. Now they both seem to have regressed a bit. Could that have anything to do with Pienaar's presence undermining their confidence?

What about Luke O'Dea? Has Howlett's presence blocked his development? What about Botha and Archer?

Nacewa hasn't blocked Kearney's development because Kearney's a better player. Zebo is currently better than Howlett. Marshall will never be as good as Pienaar, if he played every minute from now until the end of time.

I think the last point is worth further discussion, though. It is possible that Pienaar actually takes too much off the shoulders of Jacko.

[Sin é]

Lot of concern about Pienaar staying too long.

Dougie Howlett has been at Munster since 2008. If (IF!) Pienaar signs a one year extension, he will be gone after the same amount of time at Ulster as Dougie will have had in Munster (assuming Dougie goes at the end of this season). Obviously I have taken all Stag's panicked posts about Dougie staying too long into account...

Did we not ascertain that Marshall had played more time for his province than any other IQ scrumhalf last season? Murray and Reddan away with Ireland, Boss alternating with Reddan?

I do not want to be too reilant on Pienaar. My ideal is 15 Ulstermen playing for Ulster. And they are the best players in the world and Ireland.

Shy of that, I'll compromise.

There is a difference though between players like Nacewa & Howlett (backs) and players like Botha, Afoa & Pienaar who are playing in very specialised positions. Howlett hasn't blocked Zebo development (or Nacewa Rob Kearneys) - they would both have benefited by playing alongside them.

Its not actual gametime either with regard to Marshall or Jackson - Pienaar could very easily become a crutch rather than an aid to their development and their ability to take on responsibility. At the start of the season when Pienaar was away with SA, Jackson & Marshall did great for Ulster. Now they both seem to have regressed a bit. Could that have anything to do with Pienaar's presence undermining their confidence?

What about Luke O'Dea? Has Howlett's presence blocked his development? What about Botha and Archer?

Nacewa hasn't blocked Kearney's development because Kearney's a better player. Zebo is currently better than Howlett. Marshall will never be as good as Pienaar, if he played every minute from now until the end of time.

I think the last point is worth further discussion, though. It is possible that Pienaar actually takes too much off the shoulders of Jacko.

I don't think Howlett has held anyone back as there as there are two positions can be used to play alongside him. Everyone has a chance of making the first team.

Archer is coming along really well, but most importantly I'd Botha's presence has been fantastic in bringing on Kilcoyne & Sherry. If Archer was fit, I'd say Rob Penney would have no problem starting him this weekend as he has thrown him into some big games.

That would be my objection to keeping Pienaar too long - Jackson not learning to deal with the full responsibility of running a game.

[The Great Aukster]

Jackson and Marshall are progressing not regressing.

Paddy Jackson has been carrying an injury but has been forced to play because O'Connor isn't an option.

Similarly Paul Marshall had one bad game because he was playing inside O'Connor and had to call all the plays. PM isn't a Pienaar who can manage the thinking an doing at the same time, although he is slowly getting better and with a decent outhalf who can share the decision making he's a good player.

[Don Alfonso]

For five years Munster's wings have been Howlett + 1, when he is fit. And he hasn't been on international duty, as Pienaar has. Also, Puenaar has played two positions, limiting his game time in either one.

I am certainly not discounting concerns about the opportunities of players coming up behind Pienaar, but I think Munster fans are very quick to give themselves a bye ball re: retaining Howlett.

[Artful_Dodger]

Its a typical Sin argument - the other provinces are blocking their young talent with foreigners, but surprise surprise BJ Botha and Doug Howlett aren't doing the same at Munster.....

[logie28]

Lets not forget Paddy has only just turned 21, playing his first full season as a pro in the most high pressure position on the pitch. I hardly think having a experienced world class player inside him (ahem..) is holding him back, rather I think it has been vital for his development and vital for another season at least. By the age of 23 say he needs to be a leader, but not yet.

Set up is perfect at the minute, and it would be ideal for it to continue this way for another couple of seasons if poss.

Any win tomorrow will be a great result

[Notch]

Here's the thing for all the provinces; we are not competing against teams that restrict themselves to local talent. Thats why we have NIQ players in the first place- it is almost the only reason.

Stag, you have said again and again that you feel that the Pro12 is lower in intensity than the other leagues which are of course far, far more heavily reliant on foreign talent. Obviously we are in a different situation in the Pro12 to the Premiership or Top14 because we can only dictate policy to 4 out of 12 teams and the rest is really none of our business.

However, we also have to chafe against restrictions the French and English don't in that we have restrictions on how often our most famous and best players can play. This undoubtedly hurts the Pro12.

I think you need to think a lot more carefully about the pluses and minuses of NIQ players. The Ireland first idea is an economic reality but the model of the provinces being subsidised by the national team is not a particularly desirable or sustainable model and we should be aiming to make the self-sufficient. There's ultimately three things people will pay to see;

1. A Winning Team
2. A competitive and exciting league
3. Marquee players

The IRFU have the Player Mangement Programme which is for our national side but I would argue that having international players unavailable detracts from the three points above and seriously weakens the Pro12. If the IRFU is willing to take with one hand, it must be prepared to give with the other.

And as a provincial rugby fan, I know which side my bread is buttered on. It has little or nothing to do with the tedious "province versus country" debate we have all the time. I'm paying £58 to go to one test match this season whereas I get to see 11 Pro12 matches and 3 HC matches for about £180. So obviously I want Pienaar, Muller and Afoa to stay. I want my bread and butter rugby to be of the highest quality available. I want Ireland to do well but I am to some degree priced out of really supporting them.

[Notch]

I've written that from the point of view as a consumer not a fan. I think though, one of the key differences for me is that at Ravenhill I feel like a fan first and a customer second. At a test match I feel like a consumer/customer first and a rugby fan second.

On another note, I think the decision to rest Jackson is the right one. The injury he's been carrying is obviously affecting his game. We can't afford to leave him out altogether (Jackson on one good leg is still better than NOC) but he definitely needs some time to get his body right. Thats why I'm not crazy about the possibility of him playing for Ireland. For a young player to come in, he'll always be under pressure so if he's not fully fit I can't see a good outcome for him or the team.

Hopefully he will have recovered enough to take part in the Wolfhounds game, but if not just rest him. I'm a big fan of sink or swim situations too and we all know Paddy Jackson is big enough to come back from it if he does have a poor debut but if the guy is not fully fit it's silly to be touting him.

[Standulstermen]

Just when you mentioned the Pro12 I have to say I think we aren't too far away from having a competitive league. Zebre now leading Connacht in galway and have been within a point of ulster and the ospreys this year. Ospreys had a shocking start but they and munster are in transition. Treviso are always tough. The teams I worry about are the dragons, scarlets (given the apathy towards the regions) and Edinburgh. The rest I think are either in transition or going in the right direction

[rodders]

SUFTUM!

[Sin é]

For five years Munster's wings have been Howlett + 1, when he is fit. And he hasn't been on international duty, as Pienaar has. Also, Puenaar has played two positions, limiting his game time in either one.

I am certainly not discounting concerns about the opportunities of players coming up behind Pienaar, but I think Munster fans are very quick to give themselves a bye ball re: retaining Howlett.

Howlett missed most of last season through injury! Munster have a very young team and it does need a bit of experience. Apart from BJ, most of our NIQs are not marquee names either. Kilcoyne jumped Wian du Preez this season.

crickey, you would think that Pienaar is the only NIQ player in Ulster! Also, the two positions he players are decision making ones. While Jackson is fairly young now its fair enough having him, but its not going to help Jackson's development if Pienaar keeps extending his contract with Ulster for another couple of years.

[Sin é]

Its a typical Sin argument - the other provinces are blocking their young talent with foreigners, but surprise surprise BJ Botha and Doug Howlett aren't doing the same at Munster.....

Doug Howlett isn't blocking any talent at the moment. Since Howlett has come to Munster, 3 outside backs have become full Ireland internationals (Earls, Zebo & Jones). To put it in context - Ulster have produced 1 new international outside back (Gilroy) in the same period.

I doubt very much if Munster will be extending BJ's contract up to the end of 2015, which is what you seem to be advocating that Ulster should do with Pienaar.

[neilthom7]

Hard to produce anymore outside backs Sin when the rest where already current Ireland internationals except Payne who is on his way to becoming one. We have also produced several new players in the forwards. However this really isn't the thread for discussing Ireland options this is all about Ulster v Castres tomorrow so on that note I think we will win it will be tough but we can do it, I would be surprised if we got the bonus point as long as we win and get no more injuries I will be happy. SUFTUM

[Sin é]

Hard to produce anymore outside backs Sin when the rest where already current Ireland internationals except Payne who is on his way to becoming one.

I was illustrating that despite Howlett apparently blocking development in the Munster backline since 2008, it has managed to develop some international standard outside backs. In that 5 year period, Ulster have provided 1 new outside back even though the only 'blockage' would have been Andrew Trimble (Bowe was away with the Ospreys). Leinster (Nacewa also arrived in 2008) have developed Luke Fitz, Rob Kearney & Fergus McFadden).

Neither Howlett or Nacewa are blocking the development of talent.

[rodders]

Flip! I'm going to miss this today!

SUFTUM!

P.S. Good to see you back on form Sin .... ....

[Don Alfonso]

Well, look, Sin - here's the thing -

Howlett is a wing. It's marvellous that he hasn't stymied Jones' development, but Jones is a fullback, Luke O'Dea is a winger, however, a speedy and potent one, and I asked about him specifically. You've ducked that question. Fair enough. I'm going to draw my own conclusions about how uncomfortable you are in addressing it.

You can say the only "blockage" on the wings at Ulster was Andrew Trimble, but it just shows up your ignorance of the Ulster team - during those five years we have also had Danielli and Nagusa. So I have to ask whether you know enough about the Ulster team to make useful comparisons.

But my main point would be this - the provinces are not only geographically different. Short-term success in Ulster will benefit both the province and Ireland in a way that short-term success in Munster or Leinster wouldn't. (Connacht are probably similar to Ulster.)

You might not like to address it, for fear of offending or because you don't feel you know enough, but rugby has only really stopped being a "Protestant" sport in the last decade, when we have been doing poorly. (It's not even that popular amongst Protestants - especially the Protestant working class.) As much as Ulster have been doing superb work to reach out to the Catholic community, a number of well-run initiatives outside rugby's traditional rugby hotspots will not, on their rown, counteract the cultural legacy of the Troubles. What does do a better job, as normalisation progresses, is success. There is no Ulster bandwagon, in the way there has been a Munster and Leinster one. We need success, we need a bandwagon. It is a fantastic dovetail that as the sport starts to be shown live on BBC NI, we start becoming more successful. We are a million miles further from "saturation point" than Munster or Leinster. Our untapped potential, in terms of supporters, bums on seats, ticket revenues and young players, is much greater than either of the Big Two. Let's get them on board. Having marquee foreign players, the envy of other teams, makes that both easier and more high-profile.

Having Pienaar to boost our success over the next couple of years will raise the sport's popularity and appeal to a much wider demographic, whcih will benefit Ulster and Ireland. We might start to see players from Christian Brothers schools who now find the sport acceptable, or even West Belfast (of either denomination).


Weirdly, I think Nick Williams will be massively useful over the next few years, and not just on the pitch. If you watch a game on TV, or go to Ravenhill, and you are not from a rugby background, are dipping your toes into the sport and not quite sure of the rules, the visceral thrill of Nick Williams shoving Leo Cullen and Devin Toner out of the way one-handed will bring you back in a way that a well-worked lineout won't. Gilroy will be valuable in that way as well - you might not know how exactly a scrum works, but watching him side-step and hand off four opposing players should still get you on your feet.

Anyway - SUFTUM!

[Portnoy's Complaint]

You might not like to address it, for fear of offending or because you don't feel you know enough, but rugby has only really stopped being a "Protestant" sport in the last decade, when we have been doing poorly. (It's not even that popular amongst Protestants - especially the Protestant working class.) As much as Ulster have been doing superb work to reach out to the Catholic community, a number of well-run initiatives outside rugby's traditional rugby hotspots will not, on their rown, counteract the cultural legacy of the Troubles. What does do a better job, as normalisation progresses, is success. There is no Ulster bandwagon, in the way there has been a Munster and Leinster one. We need success, we need a bandwagon. It is a fantastic dovetail that as the sport starts to be shown live on BBC NI, we start becoming more successful. We are a million miles further from "saturation point" than Munster or Leinster.

Partially answers a little a question I never dared ask.

My gut feel was that Ulster rugby was principally a Catholic sport despite it not being a GAA one.

[Don Alfonso]

No, culturally Protestant. But there is distrust from the Protestant working class because it is organised on an all-Ireland/island basis.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Hard to produce anymore outside backs Sin when the rest where already current Ireland internationals except Payne who is on his way to becoming one.

I was illustrating that despite Howlett apparently blocking development in the Munster backline since 2008, it has managed to develop some international standard outside backs. In that 5 year period, Ulster have provided 1 new outside back even though the only 'blockage' would have been Andrew Trimble (Bowe was away with the Ospreys). Leinster (Nacewa also arrived in 2008) have developed Luke Fitz, Rob Kearney & Fergus McFadden).

Neither Howlett or Nacewa are blocking the development of talent.

Paul Marshall has been playing some of his best rugby since the arrival of Pienaar. Clearly Pienaar hasn't been blocking him either. Last season wasn't Marshall the irish 9 with the most game time? For a long time until recently, Marshall was also the form 9 in Ireland. Both Murray and Reddan were not playing well.

If you want to really discuss development being halted, look at what ROG's inclusion is doing to the Munster team and look how much game time Jackson is going to have before JJ even gets a shot.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

No, culturally Protestant. But there is distrust from the Protestant working class because it is organised on an all-Ireland/island basis.

It's difficult to ask salient questions from over here as I found to my cost when suggesting that Irish rugby should drop national emblems in anthems and flags.

But drip by drip, the more I monitor the conversations here the more I find that I don't know. Seems sometimes that shoulder to shoulder, they'd gladly tear each other apart.

I love the Irish, but I'll never begin to understand them.

[MrsP]

No, culturally Protestant. But there is distrust from the Protestant working class because it is organised on an all-Ireland/island basis.

Do you think that is a the biggest obstacle Don?

I'm not so convinced. I think that the draw of football is a much more powerful contributor than any other. The fact that kids grow up watching soccer and playing it in the street and then in school. It's what their Dads and brothers did so it's what they will do.

I totally agree that success will be the biggest lever in changing the popularity of the sport in every community.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

A fickle friend is success MrsP.

Although I don't agree with it in principle, I can understand given the previous lack of success, the Provinces as franchises are right for Ireland.

And why they are wrong for Wales and Scotland.

[MrsP]

GreyTiger,

Ask away. The problems in the past have been either you make a statement which is so illinformed as to seem provocative or you ask a question in such a way as to make it incomprehensible.

If you want to know something just ask a plain question in plain English without prejudgment or prejudice.

I can't think of a single poster on here who would take offence at being asked if rugby was a sport predominantly played and supported by protestants or catholics. But if you start to make assumptions...

[Don Alfonso]

MrsP - yeah, absolutely, football is more popular.

But I know a great many middle-class Protestant and Catholic Ulster fans who like both. Or GAA as well. No reason for one to completely exclude the other. I know at least obe fella who, whilst he likes both, would only bring his kids to the rugby, because it's so much more family-friendly.

[MrsP]

Yeah Don. We have friends who go to loads of soccer matches and rugby matches. They go up to watch the Milk Cup every year and we'd see them at Ravenhill about 5 or 6 times a season too.

No issue supporting both at all.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I think I did in https://www.606v2.com/t38197-can-or-indeed-should-the-irfu-assist#1725637 MrsP. But I was told to butt out.

Another feeble attempt by yourself to stir up tension amongst Irish rugby fans. The number of posts you make trying to draw a parallel between political lines and state divisions in Ireland with Irish rugby, is truly pathetic to be honest.

Read the post.

[Don Alfonso]

No - just wish it was more common in the Protestant working class. The Cregagh estate is literally on Ravenhill's doorstep. A large, working-class Protestant estate, without the sane severe social problems as Rathcoole, the Fountain or Ballygally.

There's a blue plaque for Geordie Best there. I wonder how many go to see the major sports team whose home ground has an entrance in the estate?

[MrsP]

I think the schools are the way to go to change it over time. Get lads throwing a rugby ball around rather than kicking a football.

Mind you, I think the grass that Geordie played on now has big,

"No Ball Games Allowed!"

signs on it!

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