Dragons v Wasps

First topic message reminder :

DRAGONS:

Tom Prydie, Will Harries, Adam Hughes, Ashley Smith, Mike Poole, Dan Evans, Jonathan Evans; Phil Price, Sam Parry, Dan Way, Andrew Coombs, Rob Sidoli, Lewis Evans (captain), Nic Cudd, Toby Faletau.

Replacements:
Hugh Gustafson, Owen Evans, Nathan Buck, Ian Nimmo, Ieuan Jones, Wayne Evans, Steffan Jones, Jack Dixon.



WASPS:

Southwell (captain), Wade, Daly, Masi, Varndell, Robinson, Davies, Taulafo, Lindsay, Swainston, Launchbury, Wentzel, Sa. Jones, Poff, Vunipola.

Replacements:
Thomas, Payne, Taylor, Cannon, Everard, Simpson, St. Jones, Bell.




Wasps are already through to the knock-out stages, but need to win tomorrow night to secure a home quarter final; the Dragons could do with a win after coming so close to beating the Blues and, more recently, Bayonne away.

What do we think?

I thought Dragons did well except for Prydie. His 3 missed kicks, especially the first, were embarrassing for a professorial.

Not sure if I remember Young with rose tinted glasses but he does seem very refreshing in the post match interviews of late!!

Yup. Back a few years when we had 'fortress Rodney Parade' and we were virtually guaranteed to win all home games, this was the exact sort of game that we'd win. Just grind a team down and come out on top. For one reason or another a few losses meant the 'fortress' crumbled and we have not got back to the same sort of confidence in our ability at home. Part of it is not having such good players, but I think we're playing well enough lately to get that back - just takes a couple of wins to get that momentum and self confidence to close games out at home. As for away form - I've never seen a decent Dragons away record!

I thought Dragons did well except for Prydie. His 3 missed kicks, especially the first, were embarrassing for a professorial.

Griff

What do you make of the Dragons post Turner? I think Turner did a fantastic job turning youngsters and journeymen into real top quality players, and a team that just layed down for noone at home. This squad probably commands a similar wage to that of Turners Dragons but looks very light in quality in comparison!

There is the rugby talent in Gwent to create a powerful regional team but it needs the cash to retain this talent. Why don't the rugby men of Gwent support their region?

The WRU won't let them!

Bluesman, I think generally we've got worse since the start of regional rugby. We started fairly well, perhaps had the investment to bring in some quality players, plus had some good welsh players who didn't want to be left out of a regional contract. Since then it's sort of gone down hill a little as the money/investment has dried up a little and it's become an unfavourable place for welsh players to come. That means we tend to get up'n'comers or driftwood. What we're seeing at the moment is players coming up, players out of favour at other regions, and players finishing their careers. 2 players are stars but obviously they're off.

So, I was always a fan of Turner. He did well with a tight budget and I thought we played good rugby under him. I reckon he was lined up for the sack as he seemed to be asked to leave over a minor spat with that journalist. Normally I think it would have just been a slap on the wrist, so that gave them a good excuse to get rid. It's swings and roundabouts though, and time is a healer. Whenever we had a bad season under Turner there were calls for him to leave. Then Edwards came in and he was like the Messiah as we had a great start under him. Some were even talking Edwards up for Wales, at least as assistant! Such short memories for some people, as now the cries are 'Edwards Out!'

As I said, for me the squad has got gradually worse as contracts were seen out and players left, being replaced by players not as good. So for Turner, he inherited some decent players but had to replace them with poorer players and the teams ultimately suffered in terms of performance over a few years. The same is happening for Edwards, compounded by having even worse players to start with in the first place. I'm not sure if anyone could work the miracles we want them to with the same squad and budget. Would Nick Mallet, for example, turn Nick Cudd, Nathan Buck, Phil Price, Sidoli, Ashley Smith, etc. into Euro Champions? Who would he be able to bring in on the current budget? As I see it we've got who we've got as that's all we can afford. Changing the coaching would only have a minimal effect IMO. Encouraging the welsh ex pats to consider the Dragons as a viable option is the thing we should concentrate on: Mitchell, Stephen Jones, Nicky Robinson, Richie Rees (Jon Evans decent though), TR Thomas, Eiffion Roberts, Shingler, Delve, the boys in France - just a handful of those would be a good start and would improve the Dragons no end IMO.

I actually don't think your that far from a good team, a few front rowers a lock and a solid 10.

If you could just shore up the scrum, Roberts and Mitchell would be great signings (although havn't both been linked with the Blues (along with every other welsh pat))

The loss of Charteris was huge IMHO, although he seemed to be injured more often than not (and this season)

I think your right and the biggest problem you have is that as soon as the Dragons produce or convert anything into half decent the vultures start circling.

Falatau and Lydiate would be great with a better tight 5 in front of them, as would Evans be. Also I think players like Smith would really shine with a better platform, of which Smith is a real conundrum, can look really classy at times but really awfull at times, and he never seems to get a run of games!

Even Steffan Jones is being looked at by 2 AP clubs, is messing him around and restricting his gametime the way to go to keep him or is Edwards resigned to losing him already?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cudd MOTM fair play and very intelligent call, I was expecting to hear Launchbury, Simpson orRobinsons names called!!

Why is that blues? I was watching the game with fellow Wasps in London. There were no dissenting voices over Cudd's MOTM award. A fine display by him.



It was not a good game to watch, but credit to Dragons for forcing us to play from deep and then almost totally disrupting Wasps getting the ball out to our wings with space to work in.

Cudd played a huge part in a strategy that nearly paid off.

We were also a bit fortunate with the pen try, snd Prydie kicking in a pair of diver's boots!

A lot of positives but we will never win games with a battered scrum. The front 5 seem to have found some bite around the park (since Coombs came back) but the platform the backs are given isn't good enough.

That said I don't know what ate backs are doing at times. We seem to just throw the ball along the line hoping someone can make a break. No moves and no angles equals predictable rugby.

Dan Evans is a 15. He has a booming boot and good running lines but I can't see him at 10. He's had a few decent games there but he's our best 15 so that's where he should play. Steffan's pen was a beaut.

Jonny Evans for Wales..

Agreed. Jon Evans had a good game for Dragons too; as he did against Bayonne.

Wales? That's up to the selectors.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Even Steffan Jones is being looked at by 2 AP clubs, is messing him around and restricting his gametime the way to go to keep him or is Edwards resigned to losing him already?

This is one of the reasons that go to prove Edwrads hasn't a clue Evans is not a 10 he is a 15 and last nightb should have proved that beyond doubt. If Jones goes then it is puerly down to Edwards not selecting the guy.

Damn right, Bedford. Dan Evans at 15 (he's a great counter-attacker and has more time with his kicks from there), Steffan Jones at 10. If Prydie isn't good enough for a wing spot, so be it. I wouldn't say Will Harries's place is safe, he hasn't offered much for a while now.

It's strange, but I wasn't too disappointed last night. Yes, we kicked too much for my liking, even if it did force Wasps to play from deep, but we're not a million miles away. I want us to win every game we play, but it's better to be having narrow defeats than heavy defeats.

LP,

I have really lost all confidence (not that I ever really had much) in Edwards. In the last 4 games he had made 5-6 every game to the team how the hell does that give anyone any sort of confidence or continuity to the team.

He just doesn't seem to have a clue what his best 15-23 is and thats always worrying.

A back line of:
Jon Evans
Steffan Jones
Prydie
Tuilagi
Hughes/Leach
Chavanga/Poole
Dan Evans

Gives a nice balance I think. All in 'their' positions, a few decent kickers, a crash ball merchant for when we need it, and then a bench with players like Smith, Dixon, Poole, Leach, Robling (can play 12 too) Wayne Evans will have a bit of youth and experience to change things up and develop for the future. That'a what I would pick.

The pack is a worry, but remember that we've been forced to chuck in young front rowers. They were always going to struggle. But hopefully they'll learn on the job and improve.

Griff,

Chucking youngsters in isn't so much of a worry for me as we all know its out of neccesity but the constant chopping and changing every game is a huge worry.

To be fair mind, we've been a lot more organised lately. We still have patches where it all goes to the dogs but much better, even if we are still racking up the W's.

In defence of the selections, DE has always said his tenure is about developing the squad. I know it's got to be about winning games and protecting pro rugby in Gwent from whatever madness the WRU dream up to benefit their favourites out west but we are starting to look a few signings away from being a decent side (prop second row 10). So maybe this is all part of the plan.

For me the issues are more than ever the lack of depth and that bit of class that can turn a game. Ok people will point to Stef but that's not a solution for me. He's not going to make the team any less underpowered (hence the predictable backs moves) nor give that bit of class and experience needed in the front five or indeed his own position. People point to Paul Turner but I do wonder how he'd have got on without Brew, Clart et al. The Dragons have no go-to men at present (Lewis Evans aside), just talented kids and old dogs - the basis of a good team but not enough at this level. The board have got to step up and make good on their signings promises this close season and until they do, much as I don't think the current coaches have made the best of matters this season they are being set an impossible task.

Stone,

Developing the squad is all well and good but winning in itself helps develop squads and confidence.

I have played rugby for over 35 yrs and in that time I have been in sides that have dominated a league and been the whipping boys and development comes much easier when winning

Development is all well and good, but it's only being applied in certain areas. Jack Dixon's hardly getting any game time at all, for example.

Hound that wasn't meant to sound anti Wasps, all 3 of those players showed some good things but none were consistent, Cudd did a lot of dogged work last night and generally back rowers who do that don't tend to get the praise they deserve!

Cudd didn't do the flashy fetching, passing carrying in space stuff but he kind of played a loose 6 role and got stuck in everywhere!

blues - no worries, I didn't take it to be anti Wasps. More that you expected the commentators to go for the players who are getting a bit hyped up in the media.

Kind of, but I was thinking that those players had done some really good things, Launchbury 2nd half was good, Robinsons try etc and generally those are the traits comentators pick up on, but I just thought Cudd was excellent, and totally outplayed Evans who had been Dragons stand out by a mile!

bedfordwelsh wrote:Stone,

Developing the squad is all well and good but winning in itself helps develop squads and confidence.

I have played rugby for over 35 yrs and in that time I have been in sides that have dominated a league and been the whipping boys and development comes much easier when winning

It's a fair point Bed and I kind of intimated in my post, but until we can strengthen in those key positions we aren't going to win many matches, no matter how talented the kids are.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Development is all well and good, but it's only being applied in certain areas. Jack Dixon's hardly getting any game time at all, for example.

Again, not to sound like the DE fan club but an 18 year old playing 12 against fully pro teams behind a pack that's been munched all season would be asking for trouble. He's still developing physically so his time will need to be managed carefully to prevent injuries. He's got the potential to go all the way though, could form a fantastic partnership with Biggles.

Griff wrote:A back line of:
Jon Evans
Steffan Jones
Prydie
Tuilagi
Hughes/Leach
Chavanga/Poole
Dan Evans

Gives a nice balance I think. All in 'their' positions, a few decent kickers, a crash ball merchant for when we need it, and then a bench with players like Smith, Dixon, Poole, Leach, Robling (can play 12 too) Wayne Evans will have a bit of youth and experience to change things up and develop for the future. That'a what I would pick.

The pack is a worry, but remember that we've been forced to chuck in young front rowers. They were always going to struggle. But hopefully they'll learn on the job and improve.

Harries ahead of Chavanga/Poole for me. The guy is a stalwart and always give 100% to the team. A run of good games and he could be back in contention for Wales. Does a great job when covering 15 too.

When you look at that combination of backs it is potentially very good but as mentioned Edwrads' chopping and changing not helping, that and we keep getting mullered up front.