v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 10

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s group was dominated from start to finish by Olympic swimming champion Michael Phelps who bagged 37 from 80 votes totalling 46% of the vote, joining him in round two as group 9 runner up was American baseball legend Babe Ruth who went through with a 3 vote advantage over boxing’s Mike Tyson, also leaving the tournament at the first stage is the iconic All Back Jonah Lomu.

Today’s group sees Tennis, baseball, Motor Sport and Cricket compete for your votes.

We have just the one participant championed today with an article written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the one not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.
Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Valentino Rossi- Motor Sport- Championed by CJB

Arguably the most talented driver in all of motorsport, Valentino Rossi fell in love with minimoto and karting very young. Rossi would finally begin to concentrate on the two wheeled racing when the increasing costs of karting was too much for Graziano Rossi, a talented racer in his own right.

After impressing on the national and European level, Rossi was given a chance to impress in the 125cc category on an Aprilla. At only 17, Rossi would impress with a race win and a third leading to a ninth place finish despite five crashes. He would go on to dominate the 125cc class just a year later with 11 wins in 15 races. This would earn him a move up a class to the 250cc class where in two seasons he would win 14 races with seven other top three finishes. In his first season he would come a close second behind more experienced teammate Loris Capirossi while his second season would earn him the title and a move to 500cc bikes, the premier class.

His first season although blighted by three retirements would see two victories and a second place finish. However it would be his second season where Rossi would really come into his own. He would dominate winning his first world championship in the premier class. This would be the first of three World Championships on the Honda bike often considered the best. Each of the titles were dominant with an average winning gap of almost 110 points, with 31 wins of the 48 possible.

Rossi would continue in similar vein at Yamaha winning two more World Championships to take his toll to five consecutive and seven overall titles. However the next two years would be a struggle for Rossi with a 2nd and a 3rd in the championships and only nine wins, losing to Hayden and Stoner. Rossi would successfully return to the top of the pyramid with another 15 wins and two more world titles to reach seven premier class title and nine world championships in any class.

Whilst it is futile to not include Rossi in the discussion of the greatest motorcyclist of all time a case could be made to describe him as the most flexible and talented of all motorsports. When Rossi tested the Ferrari F1 car in 2006 he would finish just over half a second behind the most successful F1 driver ever, Michael Schumacer, after only 3 days, an impressive feat. He has also shown a talent for Rallying finishing 11th of 39 in a World Rally Championship race in 2006. Rossi is often called the GOAT (Greatest of all time) by those in the know of the sport and has inspired some of the current crop of great riders such as Stoner, Lorenzo and the late Simoncelli.

captain, You have to give some consideration to the times Cobb lived in - remember, baseball didn't start to integrate until 1947 so racism was an integral aspect of the game. Doesn't make him a nice guy though.
Tyson was (still is) a violent thug, brilliant boxer but if every "confused kid" behaved like him death row would be full, the prisons overflowing. No excuses.

I really enjoyed the Tommy Lee Jones film about Cobb.

Horrible character but fascinating nonetheless

i have read stuff that he wasnt that bad.. dont know what to believe to be honest..

I will check that film out though- I enjoy tommy lees films

No excuses, is right, kwinigolfer, but I can at least comprehend Tyson, if not forgive him. You're also right about the times in which Cobb lived; even allowing for that, he was a particularly enthusiastic practitioner of his unpleasantness. Violent, prejudiced, mean-spirited and ill-tempered, Cobb is the sporting equivalent of Richard Nixon, as far as I'm concerned.

mystiroakey wrote:I will check that film out though- I enjoy tommy lees films

Aye, the one he made with Pamela was a cracker!

88Chris05 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I will check that film out though- I enjoy tommy lees films

Aye, the one he made with Pamela was a cracker!

"Richard Nixon" . . . . or Dick Cheney of course.

Warne, closely followed by Bubka.

Anyway, with regards to today's candidates, I'd plump for Warne.

I'm a huge admirer of Bubka; in a technical and finely-tuned sport he had a period of domination reserved only for the true greats. However, I tend to think that track events hold a little more sway than the field ones due to the participation pool they have (small in comparison, though this isn't any fault of Bubka's). Amazing sportsman, bonafide legend, but second in line for me here.

Again, unfortunately when it comes to motor racing I'm not quite convinced yet that its greatest stars are there on pure talent as their counterparts from other sports are. Very good write up above, and I'm certainly not ignorant to Rossi's accomplishments, but he can't be a contender here for me.

Was Cobb the greatest baseball player in the world at his peak, or was he just the greatest white one? Baseball, I admit, most definitely is one of the sports I'm terribly unqualified to really speak on, but from what I do understand I get the impression that participation levels then were a mere fraction of what they are now? Very good chance I could be wrong on that one, mind you!

So, on to Warne. A giant in the history of cricket and, even if you take out his personality, bad boy persona and the fact that he's probably the closest thing cricket has had to a global superstar, his achievements on the pitch alone more than qualify him for 'great' status. Purely on bowling merit, I make him the second best spinner I've seen after Murali, and I don't think he was quite as vital in Australia totally dominating from the mid nineties until a decade later as McGrath was, but he certainly did more than any other bowler to alter the perceptions of leg spin. As for his less than admirable traits....Well, to be honest, I see nothing to knock him down a peg or two here.

Warne just edging out Bubka, but there's not much in it.

no serious contenders in this bunch

atg cricketer though he was, warne's legend is made off 1 ball, and some creative use of hair dye. Certainly, the leading cricketing personality of the last 20 years and a worthy inclusion. Has to be him or Rossi. Close but i'm going for the doctor, as anyone who puts his life on the line and remains that good for that long deserves some credit

I voted for Warne because i have a picture of me and him on my phone.

Excellent reasoning, Nick. If only Jo Durie were a candidate here - I once served her a drink.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Excellent reasoning, Nick. If only Jo Durie were a candidate here - I once served her a drink.

When Clinton Woods comes round for nomination I am quids in, had a chat with him once in Asda.

Had a chat with gary player...

Not sure if he will get the nod in this though.. allthough deserves a place..

I have actually met two genuine boxing legends in Roberto Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard but not sure they are up for consideration unfortunately.

I sold Stern John a pizza once, let's get him on the list

NickisBHAFC wrote:I voted for Warne because i have a picture of me and him on my phone.

If you look more closely at that picture you'll see Sergei Bubka Polevaulting in the background. You can change your vote if you want!

NickisBHAFC wrote:I voted for Warne because i have a picture of me and him on my phone.

You're not that waitress are you?

I bumped into Gordon Strachan in the toilets at work the other day. Is he up for consideration?

Here's the Ball of the Century:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOVei8iTyM8
[/quote]

That's the write up for Warne!

You're the second person to post that, R_C, and there's no doubt, it is a legendary piece of sport. I'd love to know whether that delivery would have rooted someone like Tendulkar or Lara to the spot as it did Gatting. Gatt's reaction is actually my main memory - he looked like the bloke who had just seen the Creature from the Black Lagoon

superflyweight wrote:I bumped into Gordon Strachan in the toilets at work the other day. Is he up for consideration?

how was the wee man?

milkyboy wrote:

superflyweight wrote:I bumped into Gordon Strachan in the toilets at work the other day. Is he up for consideration?

how was the wee man?

Lovely pun - I'd just had berocca so mine was otherworldly.

Met Dennis Wise once, not that he'll be on the list....well you never know.
He was suspended so came to visit the box I was in at Chelsea, one of the guys in theer started having a go at him for not being bale to play and we had to more or less drag Wisey off smacking him. So kind of lived up to his reputation though to be fair before and after that he was perfectly affable and the bloke he was going to chin fully deserved it.

Good you managed to put your bouncer training to some use diggers.

Wsiey and his short man syndrome lol

milkyboy wrote:Good you managed to put your bouncer training to some use diggers.

Its all in the the way you carry yourself. I rarely need to resort to violence when cowardice will suffice.

I met Ron 'Chopper' Harris once although I had absolutely no idea who he was. My friends kept telling how fearsome he was 'back in the day' but failed, on purpose, to mention he was a footballer.

I was a touch inebriated, egged on my friends and confused by the wrinkly old chap at the bar with the terrifying moniker, I asked him what the Krays were like in real life. He politely told me how my friends were having a laugh at my expense it took it with grace.

Nice guy.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I met Ron 'Chopper' Harris once although I had absolutely no idea who he was. My friends kept telling how fearsome he was 'back in the day' but failed, on purpose, to mention he was a footballer.

I was a touch inebriated, egged on my friends and confused by the wrinkly old chap at the bar with the terrifying moniker, I asked him what the Krays were like in real life. He politely told me how my friends were having a laugh at my expense it took it with grace.

Nice guy.

No wonder you get bottles thrown at you.

superflyweight wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I met Ron 'Chopper' Harris once although I had absolutely no idea who he was. My friends kept telling how fearsome he was 'back in the day' but failed, on purpose, to mention he was a footballer.

I was a touch inebriated, egged on my friends and confused by the wrinkly old chap at the bar with the terrifying moniker, I asked him what the Krays were like in real life. He politely told me how my friends were having a laugh at my expense it took it with grace.

Nice guy.

No wonder you get bottles thrown at you.

Got to be Warne, he's the greatest spin bowler of all time, the in my opinion illegal Murali doesn't deserve to mentioned alongside him.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Got to be Warne, he's the greatest spin bowler of all time, the in my opinion illegal Murali doesn't deserve to mentioned alongside him.

I fully agree.

I voted for Valentino Rossi.

If the cricket,tennis and baseball supporters werent even convinced to champion their own man , then its not credible for others to be expected to vote for them.

Any cricket fan please tell me, Is shane Warne the Greatest Of All Time cricketer to even come out of Victoria??

Good point, Laurie, Miller would be that. And Miller pales by comparison with Sobers, which, in a cyclical kind of way, puts Warne's overall claims to the GOAT title in some kind of perspective.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I voted for Valentino Rossi.

If the cricket,tennis and baseball supporters werent even convinced to champion their own man , then its not credible for others to be expected to vote for them.

Any cricket fan please tell me, Is shane Warne the Greatest Of All Time cricketer to even come out of Victoria??

Wasn't even the best legspinner to play for Victoria.

Clarrie Grimmett was much better.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Good point, Laurie, Miller would be that. And Miller pales by comparison with Sobers, which, in a cyclical kind of way, puts Warne's overall claims to the GOAT title in some kind of perspective.

Captain - excellent knowledge displayed of cricket's greatest all rounders. If going out in the next week, please mind the traffic ....

Grimmett "came out of" New Zealand, however, which may have had something to do with Laurie's original point?!

Some words on Shane Warne:

I've voted for him today, although I recognise that he probably won't be an overall candidate. However, his credentials are far more than just the 'Ball of the Century':

- He tormented England, on the greatest stage an English or Australian cricketer can play on. 195 wickets at 23.25 (an awesome average for a leggie) doesn't tell the whole story though. He was the master of the psychological game, and probably contributed to Glenn McGrath's even better Ashes figures.
- First man to the 600 and 700 wicket milestones.
- Took his wickets at an economy rate of 2.65. For a leg-spinner (who in his era might have expected to go at about 4/over) that is superb. Very few others (arguably Clarrie Grimmett and maybe Richie Benaud) have been able to combine big turn and economy as well as he did. It proved devastating.
- Could be relied upon to bowl his team to victory on the last day if the pitch suited. Far from showing him to be a 'fair-weather player', this is the sign of a great in cricket - many spinners can't step up to do the job on the last day when the pressure's on.
- Reliable slip catcher.
- Very useful batsman. Remarkably the leading runscorer in Test cricket without a century (he once made 99).

I'm no fan of his recent 'celebrity' persona which has seen him become a tabloid name, as well as a drawcard for T20 competitions. Indeed, he's looked a rather sad figure for much of the current Big Bash campaign. However, the main part of his career is what counts and from 'Ball of the Century' to his retirement he was exceptional.

Nicely put, Shelsey, but would say that while the Ashes might have been the greatest stage that Warne could play on, England were a long way from his strongest opposition, particularly in the business of playing spin. There, his greatest challenge was India, and in this, he failed spectacularly, with an average even worse at home than it was away and an overall figure of 47. Doesn't dent his place as the best leggie ever, but does show that he was distinctly human, more so than he would have us believe.

Of the others,

Bubka - A remarkable character. As with any athlete representing the Soviet Union, there must be some questions over whether he used drugs? (although I guess in pole vault they wouldn't be as much of an aid is in most other athletics disciplines?). Apart from that the major blot is that he has an unspectacular Olympic record (though I dispute Wiki's claim that it was poor - anyone who wins an Olympic gold medal by definition has a pretty decent Olympic record!).

Rossi - Very talented, and in MotoGP you feel equipment is less of a factor than in F1. Yet he is still competing and in a sport which maybe isn't recognised at front line (rightly or wrongly) I don't feel I can call him the GOAT at this stage.

Cobb - A name that I was completely ignorant of until today. However, two concerns mean I can't really go beyond the first paragraph of his Wiki page:

1/ Questions of character are brought up (and quite serious ones)
2/ As somebody who would like to think I know a little bit about cricket, pre-war cricketers are terribly hard to assess in terms of the opposition they faced, the skills they had etc. etc. I can hardly make a very satisfactory judgment of a pre-war exponent of a sport I have very little knowledge of then.

It would be very unfair if Moto GP was labelled in the same way as F1, the riders show an incredible amount of talent each and every race with Rossi being head and shoulders above everyone else. He was able to win races on an inferior bike purely because of his attacking and fearless riding, breaking later than anyone else and doing things no one else could do, he tormented Stoner relentlessly until the younger man had to yield.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Nicely put, Shelsey, but would say that while the Ashes might have been the greatest stage that Warne could play on, England were a long way from his strongest opposition, particularly in the business of playing spin. There, his greatest challenge was India, and in this, he failed spectacularly, with an average even worse at home than it was away and an overall figure of 47. Doesn't dent his place as the best leggie ever, but does show that he was distinctly human, more so than he would have us believe.

You make a fair point. India's batting was strong throughout his career, and they seemed to play him particularly well. However, this can (partially) be explained by the fact that a lot of his Tests v India were between 1998 and 2001 - a period in which he struggled a bit with a shoulder problem, and didn't really get back to his best until he got to play England again! The average is also inflated by 2 early Tests that he played v India in '92 - after these he was dropped, and wasn't recalled until the 'Ball of the Century' Test. By the '04 series in India he was doing pretty well.

I'd also add that Warne and McGrath did a lot to make England's batting look bad. The England team of the '90s and very early 2000s is often ridiculed. But its often forgotten that they beat SA (featuring Kirsten, Kallis, Donald, Ntini, Pollock) in '98 and had success in Pakistan and Sri Lanka in '00-'01. Australia must have been a very good team to brush them aside so easily both home and away as they did pretty much throughout Warne's career. I'd hazard that Shane was a big part of that.

That's a good point re England's batting Shelsey. Even the 93 England team, in a period where we were generally quite poor had decent batsmen. The pop-gun and ever changing bowling attack was the main thing that used to let us down in the 90's, and the obsession with playing "all-rounders" who were nowhere near good enough.

The batting was still inconsistent (think of the assorted debacles in India in 93, against Pakistan in 96 or NZ in 99). While accepting that bowling attacks were a good bit better in the 90s than they are today, the fact that only Thorpe and Smith of our frontline batsmen from that decade could consistently average over 40 is quite an indictment of them. Stewart 39, Hussain and Atherton 37, Hick 31, Crawley nothing marvellous, Butcher early 30s, Ramps 27 and so on and so on (Gooch an exception, but hardly a batsman "of" that decade). Decent line-up, as you say, but still inferior to most other Test line-ups of the decade.

Shelsey, as we regularly see on the subcontinent, English batsmen are historically frail against spin, the ball of the century and his early success just helped give warne an additional edge. It's a mental game and he knew how to exploit his advantage. Fair play to him.

Frankly, though, any fat boy in a blonde wig who could say g'day mate could have skittled most England batting line ups either side of the turn of the century. So i'd suggest some of that warne average against england was 'assisted'. McGrath had usually wrecked the top order and served him a nervous middle order to get his teeth into to. Not knocking a clearly brilliant bowler, just an alternative take on that average against England.

I've gone for Bubka because it always amused me the way he'd increase his world record by 1cm at a time at minor meets just to collect some extra dosh.

Also during this years Olympics I can remember being taken aback by how low, in comparison, the heights they were achieving were.

I bet Isinbayeva doesnt make the top 64 and her record pretty useful as well.

captain carrantuohil wrote:You're the second person to post that, R_C, and there's no doubt, it is a legendary piece of sport. I'd love to know whether that delivery would have rooted someone like Tendulkar or Lara to the spot as it did Gatting. Gatt's reaction is actually my main memory - he looked like the bloke who had just seen the Creature from the Black Lagoon

Captain... will this answer your question regarding Tendulkar? (Granted this is the first time for Little Master 2 - Gavaskar is the original Little Master as far as I am concerned).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgr4tyZvPDY

Regarding Lara... This is the strangest I can recall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAySC2MTa9o

Shane Warne for me, I have no much idea abt the rest except for Rossi and he in my view can't beat Warne in any aspect.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Good point, Laurie, Miller would be that. And Miller pales by comparison with Sobers, which, in a cyclical kind of way, puts Warne's overall claims to the GOAT title in some kind of perspective.

I also would throw Bill Lawry's name into that ring, even though I think Shane warne is a better bowler and texter.