Impotent Scarlets submit to Clermont.

0-29. In truth the impotent Scarlets were lucky to get the nil. 'You don't become a bad team over night' goes the accepted wisdom. The Scarlets must be trying to be the exception that proves the rule. A blistering start in the Rabo became a season to forget when Stoddart got sent off in Clermont.

Clermont Auvergne, in common with the other two group members, travelled with a small support who nevertheless managed to drown out a dazed Scarlets support.

This was not a vintage campaign for the Scarlets in any event but the way they limply accepted the dying of the light was thoroughly disappointing.

Those fans who recall the days of Llanelli flying the flag for Wales in Europe will remember packs of forwards that were competitive. The sad truth is that the current Scarlets pack are mediocre, at best.

Then there were the backs. Players who could break a line and run in tries. Now there are talented individuals, but if the ball is not kicked away, it's passed wide, poorly. If the line is broken players run until tackled, the ball dies.

They were showed the way by an old boy. One of the biggest cheer of the night from the Scarlets fans was for the introduction of Regan King to the fray. He was soon in the thick of it. He received a pass with little appearing to be on. He ran at the gap between the Scarlet centres, committing Warren and confusing Davies. An offload out of the tackle and Rougerie was is for Clermont's bonus point try.

But the upsetting thing for the season ticket holder sat next to me was that Clermont had played poorly for their 24 points start. Knocks on, Parra didn't want to know, backs too deep, getting caught behind the gain line; in short, a travelling French side there for the taking. It was killing him by inches that faced with opportunity, the Scarlets couldn't get it up. They looked out of place in the World's best club competition.

Their first try was cheap. A two man defensive overlap on the blind side was beaten by simple inter passing, Nalaga racing away to score.

The second try was worse, McCusker collected a ball that had squirted out of a scrum and passed it to Parra who had nobody in front of him. The Scarlets' captain's head dropped, he jogged sheepishly back to the half way line after the conversion. Nobody stepped up to give a word of encouragement.

The third try was worse. Skrela passed to inside centre Stanley who ran in unopposed. It was like the Keystone cops, and they were barely better in attack.

The reason this is such a good competition is that every side tries in every game as ranking points are at stake. I'm not one to call for a coaches head, but something needs to happen. You don't get fans in to pay the bills if there's no passion in the team.

Coach Simon Easterby criticised a 'lack of accuracy'. Sorry Simon, but that sounds like deflection. Implied criticism of your players for not doing exactly what you say.

However I think your problem lies with what you are asking them to do. Knoyle box kicked so often in his own half it must have been upon instruction. Yet it was the one thing that contributed more than any other to the 30% territory and possession stats.

Yet, with all of the kicks, I barely saw a Scarlet back running at full tear to get under any one of them. That's not a lack of accuracy, that's a lack of desire. Fans will forgive a lot but not that; they wouldn't forgive amateurs that, let alone these highly paid players, with nicer cars than them.

Heineken Cup Pool 5: Scarlets 0-29 Clermont

Scarlets: Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Adam Warren, Kristian Phillips; Aled Thomas, Tavis Knoyle; Phil John, Ken Owens, Samson Lee, George Earle, Johan Snyman, Sione Timani, Rob McCusker (capt), Josh Turnbull.

Clermont Auvergne: Lee Byrne; Julien Malzieu, Aurelian Rougerie (capt), Benson Stanley, Napolioni Nalaga; David Skrela, Morgan Parra; Raphael Chaume, Benjamin Kayser, Davit Zirakachvili, Jamie Cudmore, Nathan Hines, Julien Bonnaire, Elvis Vermeulen, Alexandre Lapandry.

Att: 7,167

Ref: Patterson

MOTM Lapandry.

being lazy so "copying & paste" what i wrote on the match thread (hey its sunday morning):

the scarlets just lack leadership on and unfortunately off the field too. we've never replaced the experience of stephen jones, sean lamont, iestyn thomas etc...and that shows on the field. to compound things our coaching team painfully lack experience. We don't seem to have a real game plan, and the players don't know their roles within the team. Easterby, Wilson & Mark are trying to play this territory game through just kicking the ball down field. Feel slightly sorry for Tavis that's he's instructed to do that mandatory box kick which just isn't working. It's just giving the ball back to the opposition to rack up our tackle count even more. Easterby even without a game plan is making life hard for myself by constantly changing the team....he is the tinker man like when claudio ranieri was at chelsea. He never picks the same team twice, which never allows us to build any momentum as a team. The backrow is not balanced without a ball carrying 8 or a fetcher at 7. Easterby needs to take a risk at wales u20 Dan Thomas - or recruit a 7 in quickly.

In regards to the boks, to be fair to them they are coming off a long hard season, to play in a team that's struggling. George Earls is probably our player of the year at the moment. Like Vince stated he gets through so much work, tops the tackling count each game and his workrate is phenomenal. Possibly captain material next year and definitely an upgrade on Lou Reed. Richard Kelly has done well considering he came to Carmarthen Quins for Easterby to have a closer look at. He's a good lineout operator, and grafts hard. But at the moment he is too lightweight, and gets brushed off tackles a lot - needs some timber on him. The nutritionists at the club have him currently on this high carb diet.

players that disappointed me yesterday were:

Kristian Phillips: Continues to show "dim calon" a lack of appetite to tackle which has dogged his career.

Aled Thomas: Really struggling at the moment..Kicks badly (although less yesterday) and doesn't fix defenders in attack, which just leads to sh!te ball be shoveled sideways by our back like. Steve Shingler coming back next season should remedy this.

Rob McCusker: Sorry just not an 8 -he's a ruck hitting 6.

The only thing in the coaches defence is that they took over at the last minute (well 3 weeks notice) when nigel davies went to glaws...and had little time to prepare in the off season. Also not all things were right at the region when they came in. For example when Wilson our new forwards coach joined the region he discovered that there was only one broken scrummaging machine(broken for months) at the region to cover the SCarlets, RFC, Academy etc.....compare that to Leicester Tigers who have 15 scrummaging machines.

Scarlets are desperate for an outside DOR to come in to assist Easterby and Mark Jones. But unfortunately it won't happen - need a proper 7, ball carrying 8 and a back up LH. Hopefully we will recruit this summer but of what quality I don't know.

Just plain poor.
I think most Scarlets fans are realistic,we understand things wont get fixed over night, but the alarm bells are ringing because ZERO progress is being made in every facet of their game.

We don't seem to have a real game plan, and the players don't know their roles within the team.

Don't agree. He's a control freak. There is a game plan, just a very, very, very poor one.

The Scarlets had a storming start when the coaches hadn't had time to impose this stifling nonsense on the team!

glas: true it's a poor game plan that in my eyes disintegrates into "no idea what to do" plan

easterby has imposed this kicking/territory game on us. you can see it doesn't sit well with the players, and they are uncomfortable playing that style. easterby should devise a game plan that plays to the strength of the players at his disposal.

Guys, I haven't seen the match so I am just going on the comments from the fans on here.

Scarlets were so good at the start of the season and last season too. I can't believe that they have changed that much as players. I remember when Ulster were playing the way you described about 3/4 years ago. The problem wasn't so much lack of ability or skill on or off the pitch so much as a very unhappy team. The head coach was probably skilled enough but he just seemed to have lost the confidence of the players.

I would have thought that Easterby had Scarlets through him like a stick of rock but do you think he has lost the dressing room?

Wouldn't say he has lost the dressing room,just weaker forwards are losing the Scarlets games.

What is the point of playing a territory game when you dont have the pack to impose it when you need to turn the screw?

They are not happy. I'm no body language expert, but the Scarlets warming up was very much 'going through the motions' and that's how they played. Clermont on the other hand were tackling each other (no tackling bags in sight) and the notional defenders in bibs were intercepting passes if they could etc. They looked up for it, the Scarlets can't have looked less up for it.

We'll have to see the Scarlets league form again before we can properly judge what's happened generally but it does seem to be a bewildering nosedive in form in comparison to the start of the season.

I'm looking at the positives, as coaches tell me I must.

The pitch is in good nick.

Another positive is that in samson lee, ken owens and rhodri jones they should have a top class front row in the making.

The scarlets should stop wasting money on foreigners nobody else wants. Im thinking: adriansee, snyman and earles. They weren't even super 15 players but we expect them to be able to compete with johan muller the springbok that ulster were able to sign. These kind of signings never work.

They are definitely not an improvement on lou reed and dominic day.

Also Easterby is clearly not a very good selector. the best scrum half by a distance is gareth davies but rarely gets a look in. rhodri williams should also be getting some game time. Adam warren has been ignored for the majority of the season also.

Scrumdown wrote:Another positive is that in samson lee, ken owens and rhodri jones they should have a top class front row in the making.

The scarlets should stop wasting money on foreigners nobody else wants. Im thinking: adriansee, snyman and earles. They weren't even super 15 players but we expect them to be able to compete with johan muller the springbok that ulster were able to sign. These kind of signings never work.

They are definitely not an improvement on lou reed and dominic day.

Also Easterby is clearly not a very good selector. the best scrum half by a distance is gareth davies but rarely gets a look in. rhodri williams should also be getting some game time. Adam warren has been ignored for the majority of the season also.

Top class by Rabo standards maybe, but we're too easily impressed by mediocrity in Wales.

Ken Owens has some skills and might do a job in the 6N protected by two monster props, but Hibbard threw him around like a spin cycle, and Hibbard isn't exactly a DuPlessis.

'Samson' gets some media attention because he has a funny name and an interesting 'back story', but Duncan Jones bent him in half without breaking sweat. I don't know the other one.

These boys may make it one day, but 'bigging players up' years before they are ready is a Welsh failing.

Casartelli, youve taken my words out of context.

Yeah I do that sometimes. Nothing personal.

Isn't the correct approach is to source the best players possible in Wales or who are Welsh qualified and supplement them with the occasional foreign signing?

They are missing Priestland. He might not be in sensational form but he is a hell of a lot better that Aled Thomas.

I never thought I'd hear that said.

I'll also copy and paste what I said from the other thread.

Just a few observations I have made over the past few weeks. The Scarlets halfbacks form makes them the worst the team have ever had. Error strewn and no control what so ever. The backs are surprisingly impotent which may also be partly down to Mark Jones and surely this most recent debaccle finally confirms that Knoyle is certainly no scrum-half which makes his continual selection for the Scarlets and Wales baffling. Even the most one eyed coaches, Wales and Scarlets fans can see this by now??? Does he have some incriminating pictures of somebody in the WRU? Since his Neath days he has been talked up to be an international scrum half and he's been nothing but rubbish. Gareth Davies should move to the Blues, his mistreatment is shocking.

Now do the coaches assume because Earle and Snyman are South African that they're class? To me Kelly and Timane are the best 2nd row partnership and always give 100%. The defence has also become worse than the Blues defence, there is just no organisation at all. Just some concerns for you.

Thanks, I didn't have enough of my own!

I agree on Knoyle as well.

Glas, he looked okay when he first signed for the Scarlets. I didn't think he had done anywhere near enough to get called up for Wales and for me back then he was behind Wayne Evans and Martin Roberts. BUT, he has been getting called up ever since in spite of his consistently rubbish form. He's a winger, definitely not a scrum half.

Knoyle has hardly played for Scarlets so I find it hard to be convinced blame lies with him...!

To be honest we were beaten by a team that most are tipping for the HEC. The first half there were some bad errors, and we shipped 24 points. But that said in the second half we really hung on, and only shipped the 5 points, and that was to a lovely offload from Regan King.

In my mind if you want to have one man to blame for things goin wrong at the parc it is Regan King for taking the money offered in France. Although personally I think we have a few issues to deal with, and the main one is the attitude of us supporters as it seems we are either world beaters (and the NWQs we bring in are gods) or we are the pits and everyone to have ever set foot in Llanelli needs to be executed post haste.

No, sorry, Clermont were not great.

Glas - they were not great on the day, but that said they sailed through the group without any real issues, so its fair to say that they are a pretty good outfit.

thought some of the clermont offloading in the tackle was good. granted the defence wasn't great. it's a shame cause at the start of the season our offloading game was going pretty good, but has virtually disappeared now.

Oh yes, I agree. A good start and pressurising them was vital. We gave away two soft tries.

Firstly, I was away this weekend and as such I haven't seen the game or any highlights (or lowlights for that matter). However this thread appears to be more about the general difficulties with the Scarlets rather than this one game and as such I can throw my twopennies in.

The main difficulty is in my opinion not the coaches but the players and primarily the pack. Yes, I agree that the tactics (and I appreciate that I may be giving too much credit to the coaches to say that we actually have tactics) considering the deficiencies in the pack could be better but it still comes down to the players.

Now I will readily admit that I am not an expert on forwards but Samson and Rhodri Jones look like they may become good props, but they are very young and need time to be nurtured and to develop into good props. Very few props come through at such a young age, most don't become good until their late 20's or mid 20's at the earliest. In fairness I think Casartelli is being a bit harsh on Samson and Ken Owens, Duncan Jones can do a number on most tightheads, especially those who appear to have little support from the rest of the pack.

The second row remains a weakness, Kelly and Timane are ok and Snymans appears to do a job, but its not enough.

The backrow is just all wrong. Our captain in playing out of position and our only number 8 is Murphy who again is pretty young and still learning. Letting Morgan and Gilbert go is coming back to haunt us. We therefore play a lot of games, or at least chunks of games with 3 6's! The closest thing we have to a 7 is Edwards who is a penalty machine, followed by Turnbull. To make matters worse Turnbull and McCusker used to look good but neither has returned to form.

The platform for the backs therefore is weak. However the backs are far from blameless. Knoyle is struggling and Gareth Davies' decision making at times is baffling. Priestland is out but on his recent form this may prove a blessing in the long run if he can get his head together. Aled's form has also deserted him, I'm not saying he was a real class player before, it's just that he is now playing worse. I'd like to see Owen given a run of games to see what he can do, we need to try something!

In the center we have 2 Welsh internationals, but neither is a great passer and ScarletSpiderman is right, we miss Regan, or at least a player with a similar skill set, as while we have got good backs we are not using them effectively when we have the ball, and with the forward platform missing that means that everytime we do get the ball we have to use it.

That brings us back neatly to Coaches. As I said I didn't see this game but I was in the Library on Boxing Day and saw the team warming up. As Glas says for the Clermont game, the team didn't look interested in being there. Before I went to the game I hoped we would keep the score close, after the warm up I knew that we were in trouble. To me that must come back to the coaches, yes players should be motivated in themselves but it's still the coaches job to make sure they are up for it, and to utilise the skills that they have to the best effect.

So in brief, we still need a couple of good props, at least one second row, an out and out 7, another number 8, a new outside half and a playmaker at center.This means that we also need at least one new millionaire backer, failing which, sack Easterby and poach Lyn Jones from LW!

Agree with all of that. Is that a record?

maestegmafia wrote:Knoyle has hardly played for Scarlets so I find it hard to be convinced blame lies with him...!

No not solely with him. But he is 3rd best scrum half and for some reason is always picked as a starter. He plays gash and starts the following week. And if according to you he has hardly played then you would agree his selection for Wales is ridiculous?

Morgannwg wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Knoyle has hardly played for Scarlets so I find it hard to be convinced blame lies with him...!

No not solely with him. But he is 3rd best scrum half and for some reason is always picked as a starter. He plays gash and starts the following week. And if according to you he has hardly played then you would agree his selection for Wales is ridiculous?

Knoyle didn't do too bad a job this weekend, to be honest there was not a huge difference between the side with him in it ot Gareth Davies, just different styles (and different flaws).

Yeah SS I know it's pointless trying to make you open your eyes. I can never understand why you guys down west will not see a single flaw with your scrum half. I hope Davies moves east for his own sake. Definite international player in the making.

Cawdor is a very good scrum half, and I am pretty confident that he will get international honours.

To be honest it is a bit like when we had Peel and Mike, one was a very good nippy scrum half that wanted to go at 100mph non-stop and the other was willing to take the hard yards if needed and to slow the game down and use his pack. And then it is just a case of horses for courses.

Knoyle is a trier, I'll give him that. At times it seemed as if it was only him and Sanjay that were up for it.

Glas, I'll accept that Knoyle can be very trying at times!

Davies is a trier to, but far less of a headless chicken. Same with Rhodri Williams, who, showing the same form as Knoyle was sent back to the Welsh Premiership where he looks to have regained some form.