v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 15

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s group was dominated by one of the hot favourites for this entire competition Mohammed Ali, he eventually ended the day with 60% of the vote, the biggest winning round one margin so far. Following him into round 2 in second place was Ayrton Senna, who captured 22% of the vote, missing out on round 2 and leaving the tournament at the first stage are Richie McCaw and Martin Johnson

Today we have two articles written by forum members, please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Andrew Johns- Rugby- Championed by 88chris05

As all sports fans know, the question of whether or not it's fair to judge the best of today's crop from any given sport to the greats who went before is one which is never far away, regardless of if you're in the stands, out on the pitch or mulling over the finer points of sport over a pint in the pub.

However, former professional Australian Rugby League forward and now highly-respected broadcaster, Phil Gould, had his own take on this matter when asked if Andrew 'Joey' Johns, the talismanic halfback of the Newcastle Knights, Australia and New South Wales, could be compared to the rugby league legends gone before such as Wally Lewis, Mal Meninga, Keith Holman and Peter Sterling in an attempt to decipher just who was / is the greatest player to have graced the thirteen-man code of rugby.

"Yes, it's totally unfair to compare players from past generations to Andrew Johns - because he's just better than they were."

Having had the pleasure of watching Johns ply his trade during his peak years, which I watched with awe as a young lad, then I'd overwhelmingly agree with Gould's statement. To me, Andrew Johns was the greatest rugby league player I've seen, for so many different reasons. A fantastic and natural leader, a charismatic figure who always played with a smile on his face, a tremendous player under pressure, one of the best goal kickers in either form of rugby and, of course, a genuine match winner, right from his remarkable NRL debut in 1993 (which we'll get to in just a second) until his retirement, brought about a little prematurely due to a long string of injuries, in 2007.

The dye of greatness was cast early as the nineteen year old Johns, only playing because of an injury to the Newcastle Knights' regular (up until then) halfback Matthew Rodwell, produced surely the greatest and most jaw-dropping debut match in the history of the NRL in late 1993 against the South Sydney Rabbitohs. Playing with the wide smile and robust confidence which would mark his whole career, Johns kicked seven out of seven field goals, scored two tries (one of them an absolutely superb burst, breaking through what looked to surely be a blind alley) and even threw in a drop goal for good measure. His 23-point performance earned him the Man of the Match award and, in the space of eighty minutes, the man affectionately known as 'Joey' to his fans had gone from being a virtual unknown to one of the hottest properties in rugby league.

But really, looking back, nobody should have been surprised - that was Johns all over, expanding the parameters of what most rugby league fans thought was possible, or thought was the norm. Half backs in rugby league weren't meant to carry that constant threat of scoring via a try the way Johns did. Nor were they supposed to own defensive / tackling skills which most full-backs or prop forwards would be pleased with. But with Johns, it was as if you could put him anywhere on the field and, almost effortlessly, he could produce the goods in that position.

It's generally considered that Johns' peak years were from around 1997 to 2003, but to gain a full appreciation of just how brilliantly Johns could totally run and dominate proceedings on the pitch, I'd suggest seeking out his comeback match in the 2005 State of Origin series. New South Wales, without the injured Johns, had been beaten in the series opener by Queensland - but as soon as Johns returned for the second match, the whole series had a totally different feel to it. In the second game, 'Joey' was magnificent; his kicking, as ever, was superb, and he was involved in each try New South Wales scored that day, I believe, the pick of his contributions being an outstanding piece of vision in the form of a sharpe, short pass through two Queensland players to Danny Buderas - another try conjoured out of nothing.

It must have been particularly satisfying for Johns to have forced a couple of errors from Queensland's Darren Lockyer in that match, as a side note. By 2005, Johns was considered a little past his best and, with his constant struggles with injuries, there were some who felt that Lockyer had now taken his place as the world's best player. But by consistently drawing the mistake from Lockyer with his knack for waiting as long as possible before unloading the dangerous ball at just the right moment, Johns reminded everyone that, when he was at his best, he was still rugby league's finest exponent.

Writing this, I'm also reminded of how Johns, who by now was a long-serving captain of the Knights, dragged them kicking and screaming to victory over the St. George Dragons, capping off an amazing performance with a high-pressure, last-second conversion in 2003. Or I could harp on about how, when seemingly running in to a complete dead end in the final few seconds of the 1997 Grand Final against the Manly Sea Eagles, Johns somehow spun and fired off the telling pass which let in Steve Albert to get over the line and secure a first Premiership title. In fact, I'm reminded of a lot of great Johns moments where he made the key difference between defeat and victory, because there were so many of them.

And his importance is demonstrated by the decline in fortunes of both the Newcastle Knights and New South Wales since his retirement. After winning the Premiership in 1997 and 2001, the Knights are now a shadow of their former selves. New South Wales, after being comfortably on top in the State of Origin series of the nineties and early twenty-first century, without Johns they now find themselves being dominated by Queensland each and every series - the 2012 edition was the seventh in succession which they've lost.

Some players are fortunate enough to tick of the big, notable achievements of their sport. Johns, however, collected such accolades as if they were stamps. By the time of his retirement, he was the leading points scorer in the 99-year history of Australian national rugby league, with 2,176 from his 249 matches. He was the first player ever to win the Golden Boot (awarded to the player judged to have been the best in the world that year) twice, doing so in 1999 and 2001. He is the only man to have won the Dally M medal (awarded to the best player that year in Australia) three times, having scooped it up in 1998, 1999 and 2002. At the Rugby League World Cup of 1995, Johns was voted the Player of the Tournament. He completed his domestic set by earning the prestigious Clive Churchill medal, given to the Man of the Match in a Grand Final, in 2001.

And that was all while he was playing. In retirement, Johns was voted by the publication 'Rugby League Week' as the greatest player of the past thirty years (1978-2008). In 2012, Johns was names as one of rugby league's 'Immortals', only the eighth man to receive the honour (and the quickest to do so since retiring) in the history of the game.

There is not a single box left unticked. When Johns was forced to retire in 2007, John Fordham stated, "He's the best player I've ever seen in either code of rugby, and there are people out there far more qualified than myself who will say the exact same." Well, I'm far less qualified than Fordham, but I must still agree with him wholeheartedly. Andrew Johns was like no other rugby league player I've seen before or since. You just kept waiting and waiting for that poor showing one day, or the bad run of form which must surely come eventually - but it never did.

To me, rugby league just isn't the same without him. There was something indomitable about Johns when he played, and it was such a joy to watch; the way he could beat his man, break up opposition attacks, his fantastic play-making ability and, of course, his goal kicking which carved out a place for himself in the record books. Often, when 'Joey' returned from an injury lay off, Newcastle Knights fans would pack the (then known as) Marathon Stadium with tribute banners reading, 'Finally God has come back to Marathon.' I, for one, wish that were possible.

Andrew Johns - simply the greatest rugby league player of all time

Henry Armstrong- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

It's probably the case that for all but the more historically minded posters from the boxing forum, Henry Armstrong is going to be a bit of a mystery name. However, "Homicide Hank" has every right to be considered in this process and his exploits known to a wider audience. Armstrong might not be a household name but amongst keen boxing historians, he's pretty much a universal pick in the top 5 pound for pound fighters of all time. The respected IBRO picked him as the third greatest fighter of all time (Sugar Ray Robinson and Harry Greb took the top 2 spots).

Having turned pro in 1931, Armstrong fought frequently (he'd eventually rack up 181 fights by the time he retired) mostly with great success until in 1937 his career really took off. Incredibly so! Henry fought 27 times in 1937. 27!!! Unthinkable now when the top fighters barely manage three fights in a year. In the first 22 of those 27 fights he won 21 of them by knockout. In the 23rd fight he knocked out reigning champion, Petey Sarron in the 6th round to win the featherweight world title. He won his remaining four fights of 1937 with four more knockouts. So across 27 fights in 1937, Armstrong won 27 times and 26 of those victories came by knockout. Added to that he now had the featherweight title belt in his possession. A truly incredible year but Armstrong was about to surpass it. What Armstrong did in 1938 is simply the greatest calendar year any boxer has ever had. Harry Greb's 1922 is amazing but Armstrong's 1938 is staggering and almost beyond comprehension.

Homicide Hank managed 14 wins out of 14 fights in 1938 - all while he was still reigning featherweight champion. He'd continue the run of knockouts he's accumulated in 1937 by knocking out his first 7 opponents of the year (including future champion, Chalky Wright). In his 8th fights of the year, the very good Baby Arizmendi would see the final bell to end the run of knockouts but not the run of victories. However, Armstrong's finest moments were just around the corner. Armstrong jumped up a couple of weight divisions to challenge the great welterweight champion Barney Ross. Armstrong weighing in at less than the lightweight limit comprehensively beat the great Ross over 15 rounds to add the welterweight title to his featherweight title. Not satisfied with this, Armstrong immediately challenged the excellent lightweight champion Lou Ambers. Armstrong would take the title courtesy of a split decision and became the first person to ever hold three different world titles at different weights concurrently. In an era when there were only eight different weight divisions, Armstrong held nearly half of the available belts on offer.

Much has been made of Manny Pacquiao’s weight hopping exploits over the last few years and whilst what Manny has done has been impressive, it pales in comparison to Armstrong’s exploits. Armstrong gathered almost half of the available weight belts in less than 12 months and did so by beating the best men in each weight class. There were no weight stipulations imposed on his opponents and Armstrong would take the welterweight title whilst weighing in as a lightweight.

Although Armstrong would contentiously lose the lightweight title in a rematch with Ambers, he would go on to defend the welterweight title several times and would have a pop at the middleweight title (which he would have won but for the judges dubiously scoring his fight with Cerefino Garcia a draw). He'd eventually lose the welterweight title in 1940 to Fritzie Zivic but he would continue to fight until 1945.

Armstrong would finish with a record of 150 wins (101 knockouts) from his 181 fights but it's the period between 1937 and 1940 that truly stands out. From 1937 to late 1940, he lost only one fight. His record against topflight competition during this time was 59 wins, 1defeat and 1 draw with 51 knockouts. He scored 27 straight knockouts during 1937-1938. It's arguable that during that 3 year period, Armstrong was the greatest and most dominant sportsman on the planet.

Let ‘s turn to the excellent Monte Cox to get a picture of what Armstrong was like in the ring:

"Armstrong was a marvel of the ring. He worked at a fast pace, had quick hands and unlike most fighters seemed to pick up speed as the rounds went on. He was also a strong puncher and defensively his bob and weave style kept him from receiving the full impact of his opponent’s blows. The truth of Henry Armstrong is that he had much better boxing skills than some give him credit for.

Most fighters tried to run from Henry, but he never let them get away. He stuck to his opponent’s like superglue and drove them into a corner or trapped them against the ropes and them proceeded to give them a good pasting. Fighters who tried to stand their ground against Hank had difficulty keeping up with his work rate. He would overwhelm them until they were forced to back up and then he would chase them down, pounding away until they were beaten men.

Upon his death it was discovered that Armstrong’s heart was a third larger than that of the average person. This allowed him to fight at a ferocious pace for 15 rounds without loss of breath. It seems certain that he could have done the same thing in a 20 round bout."

Armstrong won't be the most celebrated name of the 64 men and women that will be considered in this process, but there should be no doubt that he is fully deserving of his place among the greatest sports stars that the world has ever seen.

legendkillarV2 wrote:LF Laver needs you here

exactly, come on LF represnt the tennis community i.e represent us and our player.

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:WARNING: DO NOT VOTE LAVER

Should the Laver voter be afraid? The current poll results show no one took your warning seriously. Do you want to contemplate why?

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:Ken Rosewall, in 1974, reached 2 Grand Slam Finals aged 39. Inconceivable in today’s game. That is a damning indictment on the level competiton at the time. What does that say about Laver? If Rosewall could reach Finals aged 39, why couldn’t a 32 year old Laver reach any Slam Finals? Laver failed to adapt. He didn’t have the power or the guile to pit his wits against the younger generation.

Are you not forgetting Jimmy Connors aged 39 reaching US Open SF in 1991? Perhaps this will help - http://www.tennis28.com/slams/agerecords_winners.html#oldest

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:Pancho Gonzales was generally regarded as the best player of the pre-Open era. In 1970, Gonzales defeated Laver in a $10,000 winner-take-all, five-set match at Madison Square Gardens - when Gonzales was 41 years old.

Very wonderful player in his own right. Look at the bigger picture - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales-Laver_rivalry

If your historical perspective is an echo of a certain Mr. Jack Kramer, you should also read Bud Collins. There is a 10 year age difference between the two.

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:Another important factor is that 3 out of the 4 Slams were played on grass during Laver’s era. How many more Slams would Roger Federer have if that was the case today? 4 at least. That takes Federer’s hypothetical tally to 21. Laver won his last Slam (his hypothetical 16th) aged 31. Federer only recently turned 31 and still has time to extend his lead (hypothetically 5 Slams) over Laver in the Grand Slam stakes.

Federer and Laver should not be compared. It is like comparing Big Bill Tilden with Laver, or Willie Renshaw with Federer. They are products of different time periods and had environments which were completely different. They were/are both complete players in their respective time periods.

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:The Ol’ Boys are blinkered by their lust for the past. They have told and retold Laver's story. But when we consider the facts, it is clear that the story of Rod Laver’s greatness is simply a myth.

Your DNA is built on evolution which has a very significant past. Do you want to go back to Gondwana?

Laverfan 10-0 Spaghetti Hans

This is a mauling.

It Must Be Love wrote:Laverfan 10-0 Spaghetti Hans

This is a mauling.

Laver-esque, that's what it is.

You had to see "Joey" Johns play in the flesh to appreciate the magic that he could weave on a league field, creating pressure throuh opposing defensive lines, and then with an armoury of passes, kicks or runs to the line he could not only create a hole, put a player into a hole,put a ball into a hole, or run himself into a hole that he could predict where the scoring plays would occur four or five tackles previously.

Maybe though he didnt have the ability to win a game on his own like a Wally Lewis,Alan Langer,Darryn Lockyer,Brad Fittler,Brett Kenney or a Cliffy Lyons...

Little late on the scene with this one boys and girls, but I have to say I don't know what Honest Abe himself, Henry Armstrong's doing on this list. My old man told me a lot about Hokey Cokey Henry - and it didn't leave me impressed. Sounds like he danced his way into a fair few uppercuts with his so-so 5:1 win ratio. Mrs. Wikipedia, Billie Jean King would have been a fairer choice.

Your old man is probably senile or Azania