v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 16

Friday’s group was all about one man, tennis legend and grand slam champion Rod Laver, Laver bagged 38 votes totalling 58% of the overall vote and sails into round 2 alongside boxing’s Henry Armstrong who secured 17 votes. Exiting the tournament are Andrews Johns and Billy Jean King after a disappointing opening round.

Today we have three articles written by forum members, please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

This is the final group of round 1, tomorrow will see round 2 kick off and the one on one's begin

Steffi Graf- Tennis- Championed by legendkillarV2

Arguably one of tennis's most gifted and successful players ever. 22 Grand Slam titles. 6 end of year titles. 69 other tour event titles. 377 weeks at number 1. Gold, Silver and Bronze Olympic medals. The only player ever to have won the Career Golden Calendar Year Slam. A feat which will never be repeated. The Fraulein Forehand as she was known. She had a lovely and velvet like backhand slice to match that of the great Rod Laver. Her footwork and speed was amazing. The game had simply never witnessed anything like it. It still hasn't.

Steffi begun playing tennis at the age of 4 being coached by her tennis enthuisast father. By age 5 she had played in her first tournament. In 1982 she won both the under 12's and under 18's European Championships. She then turned pro at the age of 13 and her first match lost to 2 time Slam winner Tracey Austin. There was no doubt that this talented youngster was going to go far. In 1983 she broke into the top 100 of the world which for a 14 year old is just sensational. Let that sink in for a minute. The top 100 on the pro tour at the age of 14. At the age of 15 she won her first Grand Slam match. At the age of 16 she won her first pro title by winning the Family Circle Cup by defeating the legendary Chris Evert in straight sets.

It wasn't until 1987 when Steffi started to come to prominance. She won the Sony Ericsson Open and then went on to win in Rome. A month later and Graf was in her first Grand Slam final at Roland Garros. A week shy of her 18th birthday. Standing on the other side of the net was the greatest female player of them all. Martina Navratilova. A winning machine. The ultimate competitor. Graf was unbeaten in 1987. After a set all, it came down to a final set showdown. Nerve would fancy the more experienced Navratilova. Graf was 3-5 in the third. Navratilova double faulted serving for the match at 5-4. Graf broke the Navratilova serve and got 6-7. Match point. Navratilova served another DF thus handing Graf her first Slam title and making her the youngest female winner of the French Open. Navratilova however got her measure of revenge by beating Graf in the Wimbledon and US Open finals. Slam finals were many things which Graf would feature in. This would mark a run of 13 consecutive Slam finals for Graf.

1988. The single most amazing year in tennis history. She started the year winning her first Australian Open title. She overcame Chris Evert in straight sets. She won the title without the loss of a single set. She went on to Roland Garros where she defended her title by defeating Natalia Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in the final. The first time anyone had been bagelled in a Slam final since 1911!. Along came Wimbledon. She faced Navratilova who had won 6 straight Wimbledon titles. After losing the first set, Steffi found herself 2-0 in second. She rallied back and won 6 straight games to clinch the second set. Steffi then saw out the 3rd to win the match 7-5 2-6 1-6 and usher in new period of dominance. Graf then went on to win the US Open defeating Gabriela Sabatini in the final and then at the Summer Olympics in Seoul completed the most amazing year in tennis by capturing Gold. Thus sealing her place in history.

In her career she went on to win Wimbledon 7 times. 5 in a row. The French Open 6 times. The US Open 5 times and Australian Open 4 times. She appeared in 31 Slam finals. She won 18 Masters Titles making 24 finals. She won 5 end of year championships.

Quite simply she was the greatest player to have ever played the game.

Edwin Moses- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

122 races, spread over 9 years, 9 months and 9 days.

That's how long Edwin Moses went undefeated in the 400m hurdles. It is by far the most awe-inspring, dominant and lasting winning streak in the history of track and field, and must surely still rank as one of the most remarkable feats in the history of any sport. Michael Johnson in the 400m, Jan Zelezny in the javelin, Keninesa Bekele in the 10,000m - there have been some athletes who have made an even their own, but none of them managed it to the same extend that Moses did.

Edwin Moses, born in Ohio in 1955, was just that little bit different to many other track athletes of his era, or indeed of any other. He was a vegan, first off, and he insisted on keeping a trademark 13-stride pattern to his running between hurdles, waiving the convential technique of either 14 strides or, at least, adapting from 13 to 14 for the bends. He was also a demonstrative campaigner (rather than just a saying but never doing one) against the use of PEDs in sport; indeed, as an athletics administrator, he played a key role in the developemtn and introduction of out-of-competition testing.

Some athletes covered in this process have left an indelible impression on sport through their colourful personalities or roundabout political influence as they have through their purely physical achievements. Granted, Moses' appeal lies solely in his consistent excellent on the track and not much else more, but what an incredible level of excellence it was. He was the Olympic champion in the 400m hurdles in Montreal in 1976, and again in 1984 in Los Angeles. Sure things seldom exist in sport, but it would have required a rival of Moses' to scale some incredibly long odds to deny him a gold medal in Moscow in 1980 as well, had the USA not boycotted the Games. However, even aged thirty-three and certainly a few years removed from his prime, Moses was able to add a bronze medal in the 1988 final in Seoul. He is one of only four men to have won the Olympic 400m hurdles title twice (again, the it's worth repeating that it was surely only America's 1980 boycott which prevented him from standing alone in this regard), but absolutely nobody else has won a medal in three separate Olympic finals in the event.

Moses was also the world champion twice in his discipline, striking gold at the inaugural edition of the championships in 1983 in Helsinki and again in 1987 in Rome. Once more, nobody has outdone Moses' two world titles in the 400m hurdles, despite the fact that he first World Championships didn't take place until Moses was well in to his career and also that Moses competed in an era where these Championships took place only once every four years, rather than the once every two years schedule that we see today.

However, as with all of the great track and field athletes, the medals alone don't quite convey what Moses meant and still means to his event. Just as men like Usain Bolt and Sergei Bubka have expanded the parameters of what sports fans thought was possible the the 100m and pole vault respectively, Moses helped usher in new targets for the 400m hurdles which, by convention wisdom, just shouldn't have been achievable in his time. Before Moses' arrival on the world scene, the Everest of 400m hurdles running was to break the 48 second barrier. Only one man, in fact, had ever done this; John Akki-Bua of Uganda, who had clocked a world best of 47.82 seconds. However, by the time Moses was done, 400m hurdles runners were daring to dream of cracking the 47 second barrier. To the uneducated eye, one whole second seems like nothing. But as anyone in the know can tell you, to reduce the expected gold standard of a one-lap event, hurdles or no, by such a margin and in such a short amount of time is a wonderful feat.

In fact, Moses' world record reign of sixteen years remains one of the longest in the history of track and field. He started off with a 47.64 in the Montreal Olympics of 1976, improved on that mark with 47.45 the following year, took it down further to 47.13 in Milan in 1980 and then, finally, ran a barely believable 47.02 in 1983. As of today, Moses has run 25 of the fastest 400m hurdles times ever recorded - and this is a full quarter of a century after his retirement, in a sport where times considered world class in their own era are usually not good enough to even threaten such status a decade and a half later.

Consistency, continuity and forward-thinking were the key, and Moses was a pioneer in the latter, helping to bring about eligibility reforms for Olympic athlets in 1979. Without his input, it's likely that many subsequently great athletes the world over would have had to cut their careers short due to financial pressures, ala Mark Spitz who was forced to leave the sport of swimming after bagging his historical seven gold medals at the 1972 Munich Games. But with the drive of Moses and his desire to help bring about change, Olympic athletes were henceforth able to gain funding and backing to help their careers blossom and also help them concentrate on their athletics full time.

So then, if Moses was a phenomenon on the track, he was pretty damn handy off it, as well.

To put the magnitude of Moses' times and consistency in to context, he remains the second fastest man ever over the 400m hurdles - a claim no other man on the track can still make more than three decades after his peak, I believe) and only one Olympic final since 1983 has been quicker than his best mark of 47.02 seconds.

There have been some great winning streaks in sport; Australia's sixteen victorious test matches on the spin in cricket (done twice, between 1999 and 2001 and then again from 2005 to 2008), Bjorn Borg and Roger Federer both managing five consecutive Wimbledon triumphs in the men's singles and Real Madrid being crowned as champions in the first five editions of the European Cup from 1956 to 1960. But I genuinely believe that Moses' streak from 1977 to 1987 belongs right up there with them.

My favourite Moses highlight is the 1987 World Championship 400m hurdles final from Rome. Past his magnificant best, facing off against the young generation of Danny Harris (the man who, only weeks before, had ended his incredible run) and Harold Schmidt and coming under severe pressure in the final 50m, Moses kept his head, his form and his cool to set a new championship record in one of the best track races you'll ever see. That was Moses past his best - so just how incredible does that make a Moses at his peak? Incredible enough to be virtually untouchable for a decade, that's how incredible!

There have been some great names from track and field already mentioned so far in this 'tournament'.....Could Edwin Moses be perhaps the greatest of them all?

Fanny Blankers-Koen- Track and Field- Championed by 88chris05

Becoming a sporting great is never, ever easy - but yet for the incredible Fanny Blankers-Koen, the route was even harder and even more packed with obstacles than it is for most. I find it a great shame that her achievements and standing in women's sport (well, actually, all sport in general) have, for a number of different reasons, slipped off the radar, so I can only hope I do her justice in this write up as she is, very possibly, the greatest of all sportswomen; her feats of the London 1948 Olympics stand as one of the most gargantuan and most meritorious achievements by any female.

The list of track and field athletes who have won four gold medals in one Olympics reads Ville Ritola, Paavo Nurmi, Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis and this woman, born in Holland in 1918. That group of five is the very epitome of sporting greatness. But consider this - not only did Blankers-Koen achieve this feat at the age of thirty (practically ancient for a track athlete back in the forties) having lost her best years - and the chance of competing at the 1940 and 1944 Olympics, where she'd have been at her physical peak - to the outbreak of World War Two, but she also won her four gold medals in a single Olympics having already bore two children, usually the nail in the coffin of a woman's hopes of achieving optimum sporting performance, and even more so in Blankers-Koen's era.

Blankers-Koen who, after giving birth to her first child in 1941, became known as the 'Flying Housewife' was a jack of all trades - and a master at all of them too. Some track and field athletes are great sprinters, some are great hurdlers, some are great jumpers; Blankers-Koen was all three of those rolled in to one. Between 1942 and 1944, she achieved world records in the 100m, 200m, 80m hurdles, long jump and the high jump, as well as contributing to a world record in the 4x100m relay. Granted, the pool of competition then wasn't as deep as now but, for me, Usain Bolt would need to set a field event world record or, if not, set a new mark in the 110m hurdles to match Fanny's tremendous feats.

But to fully appreciate the scale of Blankers-Koen's world record rush, you must consider the times. In the middle of World War II, in Nazi-occupied Holland, food and the freedom / time to train were all scarce commodities. Regularly, Blankers-Koen was competing while undernourished and undertrained, and yet she was still the most consistent and complete athlete in the world, regardless of gender or discipline.

At the end of the War, athletics took a back seat for a while and, in 1946, Blankers-Koen had her second child. Many in Holland were theorising that dragging her body to peak performance after one child would have been hard enough, but would be simply impossible after a second. However, with the London 1948 Olympics on the horizon, the indefatigable Blankers-Koen was back in competition at the European Championships (which we'll touch upon later) within six weeks of giving birth and set her sights on equaling her idol Jesse Owens' (a signed picture of that same man acquired in 1938 becoming Blankers-Koen's prized possession, as it goes) feat of four gold medals in track and field, done in Berlin in 1936.

On a sodden track (these were, after all, to become known as the 'Austerity Games'), Blankers-Koen started her trail to glory with a gold medal in the 100m on August 2, quickly following it up with a photo-finish triumph in the 80m hurdles. She then went on to dominate the field in the 200m final (her winning margin of almost three quarters of a second remaining, to this day, the biggest ever seen in that event) and then, on August 7, Blankers-Koen wrote her way in to the book of sporting immortals when her scorching final leg took the Dutch team from third to fist in the final of 4x100m relay.

Who knows - had the Olympic regulations of the time not restricted any one athlete to a maximum of three individual events, Blankers-Koen may well have gone home with even more golds around her neck; she was, at the time, still the world record holder in the high jump and long jump events!

London '48, of course, was always going to be impossible to top, however there was still the small matter of an additional three gold and one silver medal at the 1950 European Championships. Considering the hardships of her life, as well as the fact that her athletics career was constantly being juggled with motherhood, Blankers-Koen's feats of longevity are impossible to overstate; these three medals in Brussels in 1950 came a full twelve years, a virtual lifetime for a track and field athlete, after her first European Championship medals in Vienna in 1938.

She also took home two gold medals from the 1946 edition of those Championships in Oslo - incredibly, this came just six weeks after her second child was born.

Fanny Blankers-Koen was far, far more than just an outstanding athlete. She was a trendsetter, the woman who made other female athletes realise that motherhood didn't have to spell the end of a career, the woman who made millions around the globe realise that females could compete at the Olympic Games with just as much vigour, passion and success as men.

In 1999, the International Association of Athletics Federations (the IAAF), the world-wide governors of international track and field, named Blankers-Koen as the 'Female Athlete of the Century.'

Can there really be any argument

Daley Thompson for me, 2 consecutive Olympic Gold medals in the toughest event in athletics - the Decathlon.

Some weird pickings for best 64 in some sports. In cricket, there was no Viv Richards, but there were both Tendulkar and Lara. There was no Malcolm Marshall or Akram, but there was both Muralitharan and Warne. In tennis, there was Borg, who would not be GOAT in any one's list. In football, there was Zidane who in no way has a case for GOAT.

May be the process should have started with voting for top 5 or so in each sport and then using that list to come up with 64.

Thanks for the feedback, noted, how did you vote today SF?

Very good write up on Edwin Moses someone I wasn't aware of but Steffi Graf has to get my vote on this one. Tremendous player and tremendous record. Fanny Blankers-Koen seems a great ambassador for Womens sport but I wonder what the standard of competition was like in her day

Have to have a think about this one, I love both Moses and Thompson, however I do feel that the 400 hurdles is a bit of a niche event on the track, a bit like the steeplechase really made up of a lot of guys who dont quite cut it over the 400 flat, and I dont think the talent pool for decathaltes is very big. So neither would be my first choice for GOAT athlete.
Koens record was amazing, but Im probably looking at her more as a trendsetter leading the way in a fairly weak era.
Id probably pick Graf as the greatest woman singles player...but do I really want to choose here over Moses and Thompson who gave me far more pleasure watching as a kid.
Hmmm.

Still in shock. No place for big cliff lazarenko?

I see Chris has had a busy weekend and some excellent write-ups as usual. My problem with 2 of the candidates, and I suspect there will be some debate on the matter, is that they were brilliant... But in fields that arguably you take up only if your not good enough in others.

I loved Daley Thompson back on the day. The decathlon is extremely tough, and demonstrates fantastic all round athletic ability. On one level, you could argue that's what we're looking for... On another level you can argue that if you were good enough in one of the disciplines you would specialise in it. Daley was Britain's best long jumper for a time whilst a decathlete, but unlike Joyner kersee not a world beater.

Moses dominated a difficult and technical event you are encouraged to take up if you dont have the flat speed.

I can see the counter arguments to the above, and you can apply it across most athletic disciplines... You run 200 if you're not fast enough for 100 etc. however, it counts against them for me.

FBk was probably the first household name in women's athletics, and her achievements are remarkable, but I'm leaning to Graf in this one. Will read others' thoughts with interest before voting. Expecting stout support for Thompson from the captain.

With my painfully slow one fingered iPhone typing, I could have waited and just said, I agree with diggers and saved myself the trouble.

'I agree with diggers' ... words I never thought I 'd say

You always did live in my shadow. Glory days back at Elland Rd, I always knew Ken Bates would be your saviour.

I think the list of 64 has been reasonable... from a cricket perspective I'd have swapped Murali for Marshall, and perhaps Lara for Viv. I thought Sachin got a harsh draw: he could have won a few of the groups.

From other sports I think a couple more golfers - Seve, Player - could have been worth a go, and thought there were a tad too many boxers.

Also, there weren't any gymnasts (probably influenced by the exclusively male make-up of this forum). Gymnasts quite often get put quite high on this type of poll. I'm not sure I'd have voted for one but, nevertheless, they probably deserved a couple of representatives.

Winter Sports were also very poorly represented.

Mark Spitz is probably the hardest done by to miss out: 9 Olympic golds in the most international of sports.

Also, Esther Vergeer can count herself unlucky.

Nevertheless, all of the realistic candidates have been included.

I think the first thing that shoud have been done was come up with a list of sports that should have been included.
Looks to me its more like a list of names thrown together which has led to quite a small groupd of sports some of which have been over represented.
I think there are realistically about a dozen people at least who should be on the list that have missed out.
But Id have binned off all but one at least of the lounge games guys, maybe leaving Hendry, maybe.

Diggers wrote:You always did live in my shadow. Glory days back at Elland Rd, I always knew Ken Bates would be your saviour.

It would be a small world in your shadow diggers.

Three T&F athletes in the same group - oh, well, it doesn't make things any easier, that's for sure.

Let's start with Graf, who may well end up being my choice for today, but who has one huge strike against her that is currently stopping me from pulling the trigger.

That strike, of course, is Monica Seles, who, apart from at Wimbledon, had clearly established herself as Graf's nemesis and the best player in the world when she was struck down by a Graf-supporting lunatic in Hamburg. Not the least awful thing about that dreadful incident is that the knife-wielding coward succeeded in his aim - Graf was indeed restored to the top by any means necessary, where she stayed for the next four years, until the advent of Martina Hingis. All the stats are in Steffi's favour, although I still wouldn't necessarily have backed her to beat the Navratilova of 82-83, even at Graf's absolute best. Martina was a better all-rounder and she wasn't as dependent on one shot - Steffi wasn't known as Fraulein Forehand for nothing.

I find it almost impossible to choose between the athletes. I don't mind the slightly esoteric nature of their specialities either - for me, Thompson is Britain's greatest ever sportsman and was the supreme all-round athlete of all time, while Moses' ability to perfect his discipline in a way that only Kevin Young, once, has ever been able to replicate, leaves me-awestruck. Blankers-Koen was head and shoulders above her post-war contemporaries as well, and I can't really separate such excellence.

As I say, I incline to Graf here, but I'm not making up my mind yet - I shall be interested to read any cases posited for the other candidates in a particularly strong field.

No contest here. Ex-Mansfield Town footballer Daley Thompson all the way.

Spoiler:

Yellows!

Possibly the toughest group to choose between and for the first time, I'm going to hold my vote back to see how the debate develops.

That strike, of course, is Monica Seles, who, apart from at Wimbledon, had clearly established herself as Graf's nemesis and the best player in the world when she was struck down by a Graf-supporting lunatic in Hamburg.

Agreed on that, captain and it would have been interesting to see if Seles could have maintained that for a sustained period.

While atleast half of the 64 put out do not have a legitimate shout for GOAT in their sport, in my opinion, Steffi Graf in this list definitely has strong credentials to be GOAT. In tennis itself, for me it is neck and neck between Federer and Graf.

Can someone put a list of all the 64 sportsmen put into their respective sport.

We can beat them up over the 64, and I'd agree there could have been some form of pre-selection criteria... Or transparency on the process. There'd always be arguments over it though and people have taken the trouble to do it, so credit to them.

Be intriguing how the debate on the next rounds pan out, given that each contender has already had their merits discussed once.

Who would be in your missing dozen diggers, or your missing sports. Be interesting to see what the consensus is.

Seles was giving no indication of slowing down whatsoever at the time she was stabbed, super. She'd just won her third straight Australian Open title and was looking forward to a shot at a fourth consecutive crown at Roland Garros, for which she would have been a prohibitive favourite. Later in the year, she would have had the chance to go for a US Open hat-trick.

Only at Wimbledon, where Seles had, at least, managed to reach her first final a year previously, was Graf able to retain a measure of supremacy. I could have seen Seles unseating her there as well, though, with time, particularly when one bears in mind events such as Graf's slip-up against O'Neil in 94.

Some Graff stats:

- Had a win % over 90 in 10 separate seasons. Career win % 88.7
- Has an 82.8 win % over top 10 ranked players she faced over her career
- Chalked up over 300 WTA match wins before she was 20

Ed Moses for me. Basically for a decade, when he raced he won - every time. Almost beyond belief. Also has an Olympic bronze in bobsleigh!

All true, legendkillar, but doesn't alter the fact that her GS stats, at least, wouldn't look quite as impressive without that appalling attack on Seles. With Seles being four years younger than Graf, I think that there's a very good chance that A) Graf would have been deprived of as many as half a dozen of her singles titles and B) Seles would have set a mark for GS titles that would have seen her in this top 64 as one of the hot favourites for the overall crown.

captain carrantuohil wrote:All true, legendkillar, but doesn't alter the fact that her GS stats, at least, wouldn't look quite as impressive without that appalling attack on Seles. With Seles being four years younger than Graf, I think that there's a very good chance that A) Graf would have been deprived of as many as half a dozen of her singles titles and B) Seles would have set a mark for GS titles that would have seen her in this top 64 as one of the hot favourites for the overall crown.

But that is hyperthetical.

How many more Slams would've McEnroe had won had Borg not retired which he stated had a massive effect on his motivation?

How many more Slams would've Laver won had the tour turned professional before 1969?

Lot's of if's and but's which for me don't subtract from what anyone achieves within their career.

On a separate note I want to take my hat off to Chris who seemingly wrote a superb piece on everyone on the list!!

some sterling work it has to be said.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Seles was giving no indication of slowing down whatsoever at the time she was stabbed, super. She'd just won her third straight Australian Open title and was looking forward to a shot at a fourth consecutive crown at Roland Garros, for which she would have been a prohibitive favourite. Later in the year, she would have had the chance to go for a US Open hat-trick.

Only at Wimbledon, where Seles had, at least, managed to reach her first final a year previously, was Graf able to retain a measure of supremacy. I could have seen Seles unseating her there as well, though, with time, particularly when one bears in mind events such as Graf's slip-up against O'Neil in 94.

Thanks for that, captain and certainly some food for thought. I was going entirely on fairly fuzzy memory and had it in my head that Seles had only really dominated for a year, maybe two. I knew that Seles had dominated the FO and had been world number 1 for a couple of years but I hadn't recalled that she had enjoyed sustained success at the AO as well as winning two US Opens.

Borg basically retired at the end of 81, and McEnroe promptly dominated world tennis from 82 to 84, legendkillar, so I'm not sure that his motivation can be questioned that much. Basically, the biff bang boys started to overpower tennis, and an artist like McEnroe couldn't live with it in 85. I suspect that his temporary retirement had a bit to do with a slight disenchantment with the game and a bit more with his personal life and outside interests.

In any case, McEnroe's Slam days were gone by the time he decided to call it quits first time. Those of Seles weren't in 93, unless you think that she was suddenly going to stop winning titles, having accumulated 8 of the preceding 11 on offer.

milkyboy wrote:We can beat them up over the 64, and I'd agree there could have been some form of pre-selection criteria... Or transparency on the process. There'd always be arguments over it though and people have taken the trouble to do it, so credit to them.

Be intriguing how the debate on the next rounds pan out, given that each contender has already had their merits discussed once.

Who would be in your missing dozen diggers, or your missing sports. Be interesting to see what the consensus is.

Id have representatives from squash, badminton, gymnastics, sailing, table tennis, real equestrian sports as opposed to jockeys.
I think we have one swimmer to 6 boxers, thats all wrong for me, how Spitz misses out is beyone me.

Well it can be questioned because he has stated Borg's retirement took a lot out of him. McEnroe was still making Slam semi's into his 30's. I think he could've won many more.

Seles couldn't live with Graff on Grass and their Clay H2H was even and Graff edged their HC meetings. I don't think for a split second a pomp Seles would've dominated a pomp Graff.

But not at the Grand Slam meetings. Considering that the girls only really played wimbledon and Eastbourne on grass, Graf's dominance there is not so significant in the overall statistical scheme of things, certainly not as much as Seles' on clay was likely to become.

Remember again that Graf, four years the senior, was not likely to improve their head to head record - on the contrary, all evidence shows that the more recent meetings, particularly at the Slams, were running one-sidedly in Seles' favour. Monica was just 20 when she was stabbed - there is every reason to believe that she would have continued her Slam dominance over Graf (and that, for the preceding three years, is exactly what it was).

The + side of Graf's ledger over Seles was largely built up when the Yugoslav was in her mid-teens and then again in the comeback years, when seles was mentally shot. The passage of time, again, apart from on grass, was eating into that lead.

decathletes are ultimate sportsmen..

If there is an ultimate sport then surely this has to be up there.

Ok we could say these lads are jack of all and masters of none.. But fact is the amount of versitilty that is needed and the training needed puts Daley thompson up there for me..

He was one of my childhood heros and the 3 he is up against arnt what i would call goats of there fields so he wins out this time

Steve Ovett used to call decathlons "nine Mickey Mouse events and a slow 1500"! Cruel and untrue, but pithy, you have to admit.

Steve ovett must have had an argument with one of them tbh. That doesnt sound like him!

captain carrantuohil wrote:Steve Ovett used to call decathlons "nine Mickey Mouse events and a slow 1500"! Cruel and untrue, but pithy, you have to admit.

That might have been partly because Daley was Seb Coe's best mate.
One of the best sporting lines ever came from Daley, apparently he roomed with Seb in Moscow and Seb woke up on the morning of the 800 and asked DT what the weather was looking like and Daley relied "Its looking a bit sliver..."
With friends like that.....

It sounds like an SR line tbh!!

No, definitely Ovett, and said tongue in cheek in response to a Daley quote about himself being the greatest athlete on the planet.

Have voted Graf.

Blankers-Koen is a great story, but the 1948 games were not greatly competitive for many reasons.

Moses dominated a fairly niche event. Amazing achievements but I would rate some all-round athletes above him. That includes Daley Thompson who on a lot of other days I would have voted for.

But I can't ignore Graf's amazing record and will to win.

captain carrantuohil wrote:No, definitely Ovett, and said tongue in cheek in response to a Daley quote about himself being the greatest athlete on the planet.

arh that sounds about right! abit of a joke!

With all due respect to the other candidates, particular Graf and her bewildering array of statistics, I feel compelled to vote for Moses. 122 races unbeaten? It's hard to wrap my head around that, even now.

Plumbed for Moses. A decade of dominance and a bobsleigh bronze. Alliteration aside, nearly 10 years unbeaten. Ten years. That's simply astounding.

Talk of niche event and that it's only taken up by people without flat speed is valid and I think will certainly be taken into account should he achieve the next round. He is not the GOAT, but he's todays to me.

Thompson - superb athlete, diverse ability spread across many disciplines. The olympics were depleted field events so there will always be a question mark as to whether he'd have won them both. Although - his frequent breaking of the world record does evidence that he was the best ever and nearly swung it for me.

FBK - a "pioneer" award of some kind absolutely, but not GOAT imo. Great achievements, paved the way for much of the growth of womens sport. Relatively limited competition pool.

Graf - best at tennis for a bit. Seles arrived and, for me, was better.

went for thompson in the end through purely being the best in one of the hardest events, too many question marks over graf for me including seles and lack of other decent competition at her time

captain carrantuohil wrote:But not at the Grand Slam meetings. Considering that the girls only really played wimbledon and Eastbourne on grass, Graf's dominance there is not so significant in the overall statistical scheme of things, certainly not as much as Seles' on clay was likely to become.

Remember again that Graf, four years the senior, was not likely to improve their head to head record - on the contrary, all evidence shows that the more recent meetings, particularly at the Slams, were running one-sidedly in Seles' favour. Monica was just 20 when she was stabbed - there is every reason to believe that she would have continued her Slam dominance over Graf (and that, for the preceding three years, is exactly what it was).

The + side of Graf's ledger over Seles was largely built up when the Yugoslav was in her mid-teens and then again in the comeback years, when seles was mentally shot. The passage of time, again, apart from on grass, was eating into that lead.

I agree that it's undeniable that the Seles stabbing influenced the course of both of their careers but where I would differ is the extent to which it had an impact.

There seems to be the notion that Graf was being completely dominated by Seles and that events conspired against the latter or she would have continued that dominance. However a few key points need to be raised:

1) Graf never had a losing H2H record against Seles at any point in their careers; even at the point of the stabbing Graf was ahead in the H2H.
2) In the three slam meetings immediately prior to Sele's stabbing, Seles won two (10-8 in the third at the French and 6-2 in the third at AUS) and Graf won 1 (6-2 6-1 at W). Clearly the matches that Graf lost were close. This was not domination at all.
3) Graf suffered a major slump during the period of Sele's ascendancy which included losses to players like Sabbatini and Sanchez-Vicario. Players who she had dominated before this period and would dominate thoroughly subsequently.
4) During this period Steffi's father was involved in a scandal which resulted in a media storm. This had a massive effect on Graf. Her father had always been the driving force behind her career and the central person in her life. She even stated that she could not 'fight as usual' on court.
5) If we're going to discuss what may have been then it is worth mentioning the numerous injuries that plagued Graf throughout her career. Throughout her career she missed numerous slams when she was at the peak of her powers, thoroughout the early nineties and including both the AUS open tournaments in '95 and '96. In those two years she won all the remaining six slams. She then missed most of '97 and '98 through injury but came back in 1999 (her last year on tour) to win the FO becoming the only women in history to beat the top three seeded players en route to the title. Her last slam was W of that year in which she lost in the final. She retired quietly a few weeks later.

So, in summary, the what would have happened scenario with Seles is not as clear cut as is often portrayed. Perhaps Seles would have taken some slams off Graf or perhaps Steffi would have returned to her dominant ways - we'll never know. However I think it's unfair to state that Steffi's record is in someway inflated because of the course of events. Had she been less injury prone she may, or likely, ended up with even more slams.

For me she is undoubtedly one of the greatest female athletes of all time. She was so athletic and fast (her coach said she could have been a world class 400 or 800m runner) and probably the best all round female tennis player of all time (Navratilova being the best on fast surfaces and Evert being the best on slow surfaces). she was basically a shy girl who let her raquet do all the talking.



emancipator

I think its also worth noting that although Graf had a dodgy boat she did have a good bod and a truly exceptional pair of pins.

excellent piece from the emancipator there, particularly flagging the fact that Graf probably missed out on a fair few slams due to injury. I do remember Graf as being the first tennis player I truly supported (the men's game at the time was a bit dull), and her win at RG in 99 remains a massive highlight for me, a really special performance.

Gone for Thompson. Two consecutive Golds in arguably the tougest track & field event.
Plus he was cool as a cucumber and had a touch of arrogance, which I like, in a succesful athlete/Sportsman.

This will sound very sexist but I can't vote for Graf as she is a woman. Men's tennis is far superior to woman's tennis. Take the case of Karsten Braasch, he was ranked 203 in the World in 1998 and he beat Serena Williams 6-1 and then Venus Williams 6-2. Plus, he was over a decade older than them.

Fanny Blankers-Koen for me all the way.

It seems somewhat appropriate that " female Athlete of the Century" should get to participate in this competition, however since her time was so long ago she will not get the same consideration and regard round here as someone that was seen on TV (colour) last week.

Well boys and girls - this is a tough tootsie. I don't give Fanny more than a second's thought nowadays, because the truth is she was just a poor (wo)man's Marjorie Jackson (where is the Sydney Steamboat on this list anyway??). So it comes down to the other 3 - the best women's tennis player of all time, or two strapping track and fielders. I remember at the time thinking Daley wasn't worth the fuss and I'll stand by that now - the way he treated poor Seb was an outrage. So it's one of the other two - I'll be happy with either - it's all a lot of fun! Wish I'd got here sooner - can't wait for tomorrow's group!

With that record it has to be Moses

playoff between thompson and moses?!

What happened here in the end? Thompson or Moses? Or both?