how many Kilted Kiwis can you list?

In honor of Sean Maitland's selection to play England, how many previous NZ born Scots can you list? List the years if you can? Lets see how many we can get.

1. Alfred Fell (Early 1900's)
2. George Aitkin (Mid 1920's)
3. Sean Lineen (late 80's/early 90's)
4. Cameron Mather (Late 1990's)
5. Glen Metcalf (late 1990's)
6. John Lesley (Late 1990's)
7. Martin Lesley (Late 1990's)
8. Brenden Laney (Late 1990's)
9. Gorden Simpson (late 1990's)
10. Shaun Longstaff (Mid 1990's)
11. Matt Mustchin (I think he was capped)

I'm sure there are a few more. I know about fell, because he refused to play the 05 originals and was dropped, never to play again. Aitkin was a former AB captain who won a Rhodes scholorship to Oxford and represented Scotland.

Mustchin was capped against NZ I think?

I think youv'e got most of the recent ones in there. Scotland must have one of the highest rates of players who were born/learnt their rugby elsewhere, especially in the 90s.

God bless Metcalfe and the Leslies, they were absolutely superb.

The Chainsaw, on the other hand...

How many Scots have gone the other way to the All-Backs?

Angus Stuart 1893 All Black tour of Aus, though no capped games.

But sure, Scotland gave the All Blacks a player first, and with intrest rates and payment plans, I recon NZ still own Scotland 8 more players over the next 20 years.

Now lets talk about what NZ own Ireland for Dave Gallaher?

Em Dan Carter and Richie MCCaw? They would probably still beat us anyway.

Four:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAVfElfyWeA

Kingshu wrote:How many Scots have gone the other way to the All-Backs?

great question

According to the NZRU website the answer is there have been 9 Scottish born All Blacks. This includes Cliff Porter, Captain of the '24 Invincibles. It's also ranks it third as a foreign origin for AB's, behind Australia and Western Samoa.

1. Alexander Armit 1897
2. John Cuthill 1913
3. Graham Gilbert 1935 -1936
4. Colin Gilray 1905
5. James Haig 1946
6. Laurence Haig 1950-1954
7. Cliff Porter 1923-1930
8. Robert Souter 1929
9. Alfred Wilson 1951

There are 1118 All Blacks. 79 were born overseas.

Country of birth no of players
Australia 21
Samoa 13
Scotland 9
Fiji 8
England 7
Tonga 7
Ireland 5
India 3
American Samoa 2
South Africa 2
Hong Kong 1
Malaya 1

Probably surprising it wasn't more. In the mid-late 19th century a high proportion of NZer's were immigrants (NZ company only started settlements in about 1840 and government sponsored immigration started in 1850's). Otago actively sought Scottish immigrants (In the 1870's 30% of immigrants were Scottish, in the 1900's it was 20%).

Correspondingly, immigration was pro European. Samoan immigration didn't really kick in until the late 60's early 70's. This is why there was a significant browning of the All Blacks in the 80's as their kids grew up.

blackcanelion wrote:According to the NZRU website the answer is there have been 9 Scottish born All Blacks. This includes Cliff Porter, Captain of the '24 Invincibles. It's also ranks it third as a foreign origin for AB's, behind Australia and Western Samoa.

1. Alexander Armit 1897
2. John Cuthill 1913
3. Graham Gilbert 1935 -1936
4. Colin Gilray 1905
5. James Haig 1946
6. Laurence Haig 1950-1954
7. Cliff Porter 1923-1930
8. Robert Souter 1929
9. Alfred Wilson 1951

There are 1118 All Blacks. 79 were born overseas.

Country of birth no of players
Australia 21
Samoa 13
Scotland 9
Fiji 8
England 7
Tonga 7
Ireland 5
India 3
American Samoa 2
South Africa 2
Hong Kong 1
Malaya 1

Probably surprising it wasn't more. In the mid-late 19th century a high proportion of NZer's were immigrants (NZ company only started settlements in about 1840 and government sponsored immigration started in 1850's). Otago actively sought Scottish immigrants (In the 1870's 30% of immigrants were Scottish, in the 1900's it was 20%).

Correspondingly, immigration was pro European. Samoan immigration didn't really kick in until the late 60's early 70's. This is why there was a significant browning of the All Blacks in the 80's as their kids grew up.

That takes care of part one of the question, now where did they learn their rugby?

This is the best thread ever.

Staggers me how us Scots bugger off around the world - we get around more than the Beach Boys ever got around. Actually, if you think of the weather back home, it's not that staggering.

I presume the people born in India/malaya were the sons of British expats?
Have there been any players of Indian decent who have played top level rugby?

George
My Aberdeenshire highland gt grandfather finished up in Gibraltar where my grand father was born. So I could be internationally qualified for Gib if they had had a team, and if I was young enough to play for them. Too many ifs there I'm afraid though.
My kilt (if I wanted one): clan Macintosh.

I'm an Englishman (Limehouse born) but have Scots sympathies.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I presume the people born in India/malaya were the sons of British expats?
Have there been any players of Indian decent who have played top level rugby?

Rocky Khan in the NZ 7s squad has Indian ancestry. And there have been a handful of Indian ancestry players turn out for Fiji over the years (about 45% of Fiji's population is ethnically Indian, as the British imported Indians to work in the sugar cane plantations in the 1800s)

Can't work out why a journalist hasn't done it. It's got to be the easiest team to research, it's listed on the AB's website (well I can..... but why ruin a perfectly good post).

The answer is only a few. As far as i can work out (could probably refine it if I could be bothered doing a bit more looking - I can't):
3 players never lived in NZ, but were non capped local players who played provincial/club sides overseas.
10 players, all from the distant past who I can't be certain of, Most of them grew up here, although there might be a couple who possibly came out as adults.
52 players went to school here, or arrived preschool. Only a handful are possible candidates for rugby scholarships.
14 came as adults. O'Donnel (Ireland, 1880's), Braddon (India, 1880's (he's English), Watson (England, 1880's), Ryan (England, 1880's), O'Dowda (India, 1900's)(he's English too)
Conner (Australia, 1960's), Schuster (Western Samoa,1980's), Salmon (Hong Kong, 1980's)(also played for England), Gallager(England, 1980's), Ieremia (Western Samoa, 1990's),
Vidiri (Fiji,1990's), Taumoepeau (Tonga, 2000's), Rawlinson (South Africa, 2000's), Devine (Australia, 2000's).

The ultimate kilted kiwi has to be Colin Gilray. Born in Scotland, came to NZ as a young child. Made the All Blacks. Went on A Rhodes scholarship to Oxford and played for Scotland.

Biltong wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:According to the NZRU website the answer is there have been 9 Scottish born All Blacks. This includes Cliff Porter, Captain of the '24 Invincibles. It's also ranks it third as a foreign origin for AB's, behind Australia and Western Samoa.

1. Alexander Armit 1897
2. John Cuthill 1913
3. Graham Gilbert 1935 -1936
4. Colin Gilray 1905
5. James Haig 1946
6. Laurence Haig 1950-1954
7. Cliff Porter 1923-1930
8. Robert Souter 1929
9. Alfred Wilson 1951

There are 1118 All Blacks. 79 were born overseas.

Country of birth no of players
Australia 21
Samoa 13
Scotland 9
Fiji 8
England 7
Tonga 7
Ireland 5
India 3
American Samoa 2
South Africa 2
Hong Kong 1
Malaya 1

Probably surprising it wasn't more. In the mid-late 19th century a high proportion of NZer's were immigrants (NZ company only started settlements in about 1840 and government sponsored immigration started in 1850's). Otago actively sought Scottish immigrants (In the 1870's 30% of immigrants were Scottish, in the 1900's it was 20%).

Correspondingly, immigration was pro European. Samoan immigration didn't really kick in until the late 60's early 70's. This is why there was a significant browning of the All Blacks in the 80's as their kids grew up.

That takes care of part one of the question, now where did they learn their rugby?

gregortree wrote:George
My Aberdeenshire highland gt grandfather finished up in Gibraltar where my grand father was born. So I could be internationally qualified for Gib if they had had a team, and if I was young enough to play for them. Too many ifs there I'm afraid though.
My kilt (if I wanted one): clan Macintosh.

I'm an Englishman (Limehouse born) but have Scots sympathies.

That's awesome. Some great combinations these days.

My one year old daughter is half Lebanese and half Scottish, born in Abu Dhabi with British and Canadian passports.

So culturally, when she grows up she's going to be, well, 'confused' I would think...

George
Yes, the funny effects of the Scottish diaspora. Amazing that Scotland actually has a population left... fine place that it is.
Lebanese diaspora also pretty far reaching too. we have a few in our company.
Your young baby's best chance later in life of international honours would probably be with Abu Dhabi / UAE. I heard Bahrain had an (expat mostly) rugby team, so getting a Bahrain cap was apparently not too difficult. Not sure what international sports Abu Dhabi play.