Leicester Expect Salary Cap to increase, possibly as early as next season!

by tigerleghorn Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:11 pm

Quote Peter Tom in the Leicester Mercury:

“We are entering into a period where a new deal has just been done with the English players and BT have signed a good deal with English clubs, so I would be very surprised if we don’t see the salary cap move up.

“And I would be surprised if it didn’t happen next year.”

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Salary-cap-increase-says-Leicester-Tigers/story-18000988-detail/story.html

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:27 pm

Isn't it about time that wage caps should either be harmonised across Europe or abolished?
The bedding-in time for infants in the pro-game is now passed.
All the babies are now out of nappies.

by nathan Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:29 pm

greytiger wrote:Isn't it about time that wage caps should either be harmonised across Europe or abolished?
The bedding-in time for infants in the pro-game is now passed.
All the babies are now out of nappies.

Financially speaking, we're a million miles away from that.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:40 pm

Right this isnt the drama its made out to be..the last cap deal was tied to the income of the Jeff from TV etc, with rises due if that increased. Assuming the BT deal is worth what its written on and honoured the rise would of course happen in line with what is now considered affordable.

by Brendan Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:42 pm

I do think that Tiger has a point.

clubs are big enough to to deal with their own issues. If something like the rules brought in by EUFa were used it could work.

UEFA is you can't enter Euro competitions or get Euro money owed to you if the follow are the case

1 you do not have a profit over a three year period. All debts for Stadia are excluded.
2 you can have no outstanding debts with the Revenue, other clubs or players that are past there terms.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:42 pm

But the wage cap distorts competition Nathan.
On the European level there is no comparison and the apparent evidence is that the French just do what they are renowned to to do - ignore selectively their agreements, the Welsh don't have an appropriate structure to support Pro rugby and the English system under the PRL is ink-black in its opacity and its need to support an oversized League and an unfair distribution of revenues. Hell fire! - they even advocate overseas marquee players.

We are drowning in Horlicks.

by beshocked Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:49 pm

The AP needs to look at matching the Top 14 in regards to salaries. Maybe not right now but certainly in the next 5 years.

We don't want to see our English players in their prime going to France.

If Leinster goldenboy Sexton can be lured to France by a significant boost in salary then what's stopping them targetting English players?

Yes it will lead to some imbalance but surely most clubs are close to/on the salary cap now anyway?

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 30 Jan 2013, 1:03 pm

But nobody knows beshocked. The rules are written internally by the PRL and administered internally and in secret and largely by private companies or by billionaires as baubles.

We fans know only about the spewings and spin of the PRL press machine and particularly the uncritical Sky partner sychophants.

We are kept almost totally ignorant of any facts so we are left to deduce stuff out of the ether as there is no information to work on.
"Yes it will lead to some imbalance but surely most clubs are close to/on the salary cap now anyway?"

Frankly it's all guesswork, supposition and prejudice induced through ignorance of any facts.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 1:49 pm

Even without a cap the jeff couldnt compete with the big French clubs on wages, they simply dont have the means to raise that kind of capital, or if they did certainly not the income or assets to remain viable. Its hugely questionable if the French clubs do of course.

Instead they have introduced a system where increases in the revenue pot are tied to increases in the cap, to keep some kind of control over wages here.

Its worth noting that English clubs are still able to entice back big name players ( like Haskell and now Armitage) who want to rekindle their England careers. Yes they arent able to compete for the biggest name Sanzars any more, but theres actually not that many of them playing in France either.

The cap as it is keeps the AP entertaining and more competitive than the Pro12. I get the argument about clubs being hamstrung in the HC, but I actually prefer the Jeff anyway ... it may be a tier down in glory but its more local and each game carries more meaning to me as a follower. I want to see clubs do well in the HC, but Id be upset if that came at the cost of creating a massive gulf between top and bottom in the Jeff and ending up with second XVs trotted out for games as happens in the Rabo. Id also be worried about any furthering of whats already happening with Clubs like Bath and Saracens where big spending is not matched by revenues or and increase in assests...we saw what nearly happened to Wasps (and Osrpeys) when they bought success on sand, and those were much lower spending that the big Jeff teams are now even with a cap.

having it tied to central income is very sensible. At least theres some pretence of spending within their means, and only a perhaps one club in a position to spend noticeably above it without huge risk.

by Guest Wed 30 Jan 2013, 1:53 pm

There are a few clubs in the AP struggling to reach the cap. I know that LI are close to the cap, but that has been done be sacrificing backroom staff (fitness trainers etc), so that the club can concentrate resources on the pitch.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for the smaller clubs to have a year or so to use some of the extra cash for off-the-field issues, instead off spending it on salaries. I'm under no illusions that this will happen though.

by Brendan Wed 30 Jan 2013, 1:57 pm

If the PRL refused to have improve the CAP would the bigger teams be lured away into the Rabo if they were told they could join and get have has much wages as they wanted would they be tempted.

by Guest Wed 30 Jan 2013, 1:59 pm

I don't think the IRB would allow the Rabo to move into England without the RFU's permission.

Besides, the clubs would miss-out on all of the money the RFU sends their way.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:00 pm

mawhis wrote:There are a few clubs in the AP struggling to reach the cap. I know that LI are close to the cap, but that has been done be sacrificing backroom staff (fitness trainers etc), so that the club can concentrate resources on the pitch.

Really? If thats the case whoevers been choosing the players needs sacking...they arent getting much results from them.

Leeds finished 9th in the Jeff a few seasons back with a player/coach budget (including academy) of under 2 million. Whilst there has been some inflation I cant imagine the likes of LW are spending much beyond that still.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:07 pm

Brendan wrote:If the PRL refused to have improve the CAP would the bigger teams be lured away into the Rabo if they were told they could join and get have has much wages as they wanted would they be tempted.

Well the clubs are PRL. But theres always been a danger of that alliance splitting, which is why the latest deal was made. As I keep pointing out that always had these rises tied to increases in income in it. They also recently negotiated the continuation of the EPS system, retaining the current equalised split of cash with the RFU. All this suggests it isnt on the cards for PRL to go anywhere.
If it did start to fall apart ( I guess big investments clubs like Saracens and Bath would be the most likely to push that way, relying on support from the best established/supported teams like Quins Tigers and Saints) the Rabo is not a realistic place to go. More likely a reduced ring fenced franchised split away league would be established. The RFU have been pushing for that reduction in clubs for years already.

by Brendan Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:19 pm

I know tigers are really only the only team that you can compare with the french club as they get the large attendance like the french. How those their turnover compare to One of the French teams. I know the French get big sponsership deals but tigers has be to up there too.

by Guest Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:34 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: The RFU have been pushing for that reduction in clubs for years already.

What sort of numbers have they been talking about?

by Bathman_in_London Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:39 pm

I think the tie-ing of the cap to the tv income is a good thing personally. Hopefully it should encourage the game to be sustainable and clubs not to over-reach themselves too far.

I would also be against removing the cap as things are. Already clubs like Newcastle, Wuss and London Irish are seeing their best players snapped up and this would only continue and probably be worse if a handful of clubs could just buy up any promising players. The reason I think the league if good is because every season there is a club who over/under performs (see Sale last season to today) and losing that unpredictability would be a negative for me.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:44 pm

Top of my head the last time I heard anything was when they were renegotiating the LV deal and the PRL mooted the idea of extra fixtures or a rise to 14 to make up for the shortfall in cash. The RFU had a "vision" for a two tier professional set up with 8 or 10 clubs in each. That had been mooted several times over the preceeding years. its gone quiet recently, with the focus shifting to renegotiating Europe and the fallout from that. I guess its different people in charge there now too to be fair.
To be honest though a reduced size premiership and second tier is probably more viable in the long term than the current 24, but i wouldnt want to be the one that has to go to court with London Welsh over it Whistle

I guess you could also argue that the success of recently promoted teams shows there isnt much of a gulf between the top few and bottom few in the existing divisions, and that actually a league of 14 wouldnt be massively inbalanced.

by Kingshu Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:52 pm

I just don't know why there is so much more money in French Rugby than English Rugby?

How are they able to generate so much more money?

by Guest Wed 30 Jan 2013, 2:52 pm

14 Clubs would presumably equal the 14 clubs with RFU academies, which would make sense. The two tier thing sounds like how the county championship works in Cricket, but I'm not familiar enough with that to comment on how well it works.

by Kingshu Wed 30 Jan 2013, 3:12 pm

Maybe two 10 team conferences could work, Northern one, (something like everthing north of Bedford) and Southern conference.

League would have less travel and more derbies, you would have Northern and Southern league Champions (for the old school fans of a league should just be a league). Top 4 in each then enter a cup, (can play home and away games) bottom 4 play for a shield. [bottom 2 in each I would have play offs for a wooden spoon, whereby loser of bottom teams play off 1 play against loser of bottom teams playoff 2, and the loser of this game gets presented with a wooden spoon, changes things, instead of trying to win a game to win something, to trying to win a game to try and avoid something]

From 22-24 games in a season you are reduced to 20-24, but it means less need for games durning international windows?

Would 20 teams survive in this or conferences just become a walk in the park of the big teams in each?

by Guest Wed 30 Jan 2013, 3:17 pm

You could have a North vs South all-star game! That would bring in some cash!

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 30 Jan 2013, 3:36 pm

I've already proposed on a number of occasions now that a British League slotting between the Jeff and the Championship could be viable. You have to understand that my thoughts were predicated by my opinion that the Welsh and Scots were sold pups in going regional/franchise but don't impinge on the Rabo per se.

My British League would consist maybe Six English (bottom four of the Jeff plus top two Championship) plus possibly four Welsh Premiership sides and four Scottish Premiership outfits.

The purpose would be:
For the English, to provide a transit vehicle which includes a degree of affordable international competition between the Jeff and the Champ.
For the Welsh and Scots to provide a proving ground for up-coming potential Rabo players. And in particular for the Scots to revive Borders interest and Gogs to build a degree of authority in their 5th region dream.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 Jan 2013, 4:16 pm

Its worth noting that the new England player pay deal is a big pull for players to stay home based now, whilst Lancaster wont totally rule out picking Armitage while hes away its clearly affected his chances.
The players now stand to earn just shy of 180k a year for a full season of internationals, before bonuses. Last years 6 nations saw England players who played all 5 games take home over 70,000 and this year the pot has been boosted further. there was quite a bit said about the pay and bonuses at the world cup too ( Nick Easter) even before all the cash from endorsements.
I well imagine a player like Haskell (and Cipriani) was happy to come back for relatively modest wage with that potential boost on the table. Haskell also makes a killing from modelling naff countrywear, being an England player no doubt helps in that ...as would playing for a top club.

So whilst the cap may inhibit the amount clubs can spend on player wages Id contend that this is doing more to drive out the aged/mediocre and non EQ players than it is potential England stars. The pay gulf isnt so great between the T14 and Jeffreship. Aat the moment it may be slightly damaging to some clubs HC prospects but i dont think a problem for the england team, arguably even beneficial if retired internationals and non EQs are going elsewhere and freeing up spots for the next generation.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:50 am

Raising the salary cap won't solve the issue in the short to medium term.. The French clubs got a jump on the AP by simply not having to invest in stadia. Even R12 teams have had council handouts which will probably be written off. Ulster are getting tax payer money for a privately owned Irish outfit to redevelop Ravenhill.
The clubs need to sort their ground out before salary competition can be contemplated with the French.

by Brendan Thu 31 Jan 2013, 10:02 am

I ireland the Lottory gives loads of money to sports clubs for improvements. I don't see why England, or any part of the UK woud be different. Or is it a case of the sports money going to soccer and elite sports like rowing etc.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 31 Jan 2013, 12:51 pm

I wonder how much longer child care the PRL expects to survive.

The bottom four currently have had varying crowds but none of them can pull an audience for a bog standard game of ten thousand punters.

London sides (especially as it happens, the clubs badging themselves under the soubriquet 'London this that or whatever') struggle to garner substantial crowds considering the caption area.

The South-West is becoming squeezed, but appears to remain viable.

The West Midlands is a rugby desert as are the East and South coasts from Durham to Dorset.

North of the Trent home of some of the great Metropoli, the sole representation of premier RU is about to switch from Manchester to Newcastle thereby putting a further 100 miles of gaping void.

I suggest that English rugby should go properly professional. Clubs should be self-supporting and risk-takers should live or die on their own success in the market place.

If the Jeff was cut to eight, then suddenly there'd be no need for the artificiality of playoffs, a system of crock support, and most importantly a chance to play a couple of extra International games at the end of the season plus the RU Cup Final.

If England can fill Twickenham to capacity four times in the AIs, then it could do so another couple of times in May to formulate a more orderly queue of SH sides for international exposure of their product.

The current system is so wet it's sodden.

Wasps might merge with Leeds in Leeds, Sale with Irish in Manchester.

And if Oxford drifts back to the Championship? It would be a curiosity and a footnote in history if you don't care to challenge my proposal of an Anglo-Gallic-Scottish feeder league to the Jeff and the Rabo

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 1:39 pm

greytiger wrote:I wonder how much longer child care the PRL expects to survive.

The bottom four currently have had varying crowds but none of them can pull an audience for a bog standard game of ten thousand punters.

A tad harsh. According to the stats the only clubs with average attendance above 10k are:

Leicester
Saints
Gloucester
Bath
Quins (Boosted by The Big Game at Twickenham)
Wasps (Boosted by being the home team at the London Double Header)
Saracens (Boosted by being the home team at the london Double Header AND a game against Leicester at Wembley)

A league featuring only the 4 clubs able to regularly bring in 10k for a bog-standard game would have a rather short season, no?

London sides (especially as it happens, the clubs badging themselves under the soubriquet 'London this that or whatever') struggle to garner substantial crowds considering the caption area.

I've always maintained that this is at least partially due to how close all of the clubs in the south east are to each other. If the Premiership authorities gave clubs encouragement and time to move away from Suburban West/Northwest London and develop new fanbases in other parts of the Southeast, attendances for the clubs who move, as well as those that didn't would probably rise in time.

Clubs need to be given the funds to develop Stadiums, market themselves to fanbases etc, but the Salary Cap going up each year obliges them to divert money away from the Back Office onto the pitch.

The goal should be to bring in more fans and develop new fanbases. That would benefit all of English Rugby Union, including the big clubs. The current Premiership system only focuses on giving the big clubs an avenue to the HC, and damn the rest, which, in my opinion, is shortsighted.

Its worth noting that in 1970, Leicester's average attendance was 367. If they can grow from less that 400 supporters to over 20k, then other clubs could too.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:08 pm

but the Salary Cap going up each year obliges them to divert money away from the Back Office onto the pitch.

The salary cap obliges no such thing. Owners (or Tigers or Exeter boards) may chose to spend beyond their budgeted means within their short,medium and long-term business plans. But there is no obligation.

Unfortunately there is no publicly available test of how any of the PRL cartel manages its financial affairs from the wage cap to marquee payment via tax and wage payment arrangements through to any tax avoidance measures.

What I'm saying is bugger it. Let clubs sink or swim on their own in this so-called 'professional' environment.

by Poorfour Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:10 pm

"If the Jeff was cut to eight..." Do the math, greytiger, and get real.

Then instead of 11 home matches, the clubs would have 7. Assume the LV= and HEC stay in roughly their current form, and that's 5 more. So instead of 16 home matches a year, you have 12. That's a 25% cut in gate, merch and food & drink revenue.

A club probably makes of the order of £500,000 in revenue per home game, so that's a £2m hole in the budget before you've even started. So just for the remaining clubs to maintain their existing revenues, they would need to find an extra £80m in total over a 5 year period. This would more than wipe out the potential gains from the BT deal.

Given that only 2 out of 12 clubs make money with 16 home games a year, a cut in the size of the AP would be pretty disastrous for all the teams.

There is a reason why pretty much every professional league in the world is around 12-15 teams, and that's that home games are the core revenue for clubs, and they need a certain number to be sustainable.

Professional rugby is still, in reality, in its infancy. Most clubs or regions have only been building their fan base for 10 years and from a very low base. We're now at a transition point where the clubs who built early success with their backers' money (Sale, Newcastle, arguably Wasps etc) are being overtaken by those who have invested in building a strong fan base (Leicester, Saints, Quins, Bath, Glaws, Exeter), and Sarries will probably follow once they've settled in Allianz Park. It'll be interesting to see if Welsh can do it, too, assuming they stay up.

In the Championship, I imagine there are a couple of teams who could "do an Exeter". Pirates, Bristol, perhaps the resurgent Newcastle. But I don't think any of them could do it without enough opposition to give a decent home season.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:13 pm

I don't see what sending half a dozen clubs to the wall would accomplish.

At the moment, clubs have a choice, spend as close to the salary cap as they can to stay competitive, or face relegation.

Removing the cap, as well as any financial assistance to smaller clubs will mean they will be faced with a catch-22 situation. Overspend on player salaries, put the club into debt, and potentially go under, or stick to a budget, remain uncompetitive, see their crowds and therefore income dwindle, and go under.

This entire sentiment stinks of England's largest clubs trying to pull up the ladder after them.

by Jimpy Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:14 pm

mawhis wrote:
greytiger wrote:I wonder how much longer child care the PRL expects to survive.

The bottom four currently have had varying crowds but none of them can pull an audience for a bog standard game of ten thousand punters.

A tad harsh. According to the stats the only clubs with average attendance above 10k are:

Leicester
Saints
Gloucester
Bath
Quins (Boosted by The Big Game at Twickenham)
Wasps (Boosted by being the home team at the London Double Header)
Saracens (Boosted by being the home team at the london Double Header AND a game against Leicester at Wembley)

A league featuring only the 4 clubs able to regularly bring in 10k for a bog-standard game would have a rather short season, no?

London sides (especially as it happens, the clubs badging themselves under the soubriquet 'London this that or whatever') struggle to garner substantial crowds considering the caption area.

I've always maintained that this is at least partially due to how close all of the clubs in the south east are to each other. If the Premiership authorities gave clubs encouragement and time to move away from Suburban West/Northwest London and develop new fanbases in other parts of the Southeast, attendances for the clubs who move, as well as those that didn't would probably rise in time.

Clubs need to be given the funds to develop Stadiums, market themselves to fanbases etc, but the Salary Cap going up each year obliges them to divert money away from the Back Office onto the pitch.

The goal should be to bring in more fans and develop new fanbases. That would benefit all of English Rugby Union, including the big clubs. The current Premiership system only focuses on giving the big clubs an avenue to the HC, and damn the rest, which, in my opinion, is shortsighted.
Its worth noting that in 1970, Leicester's average attendance was 367. If they can grow from less that 400 supporters to over 20k, then other clubs could too.

Are you suggesting that the smaller clubs should be given the sympathy sh*g of automatic qualification like the RABO teams do? disagree. Big crowds are brought in by success at the club, not the other way round (I don't think).

by Big Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:21 pm

Very much agree that we couldn't and shouldn't try and match the French levels of spending - I think that would be a disaster. We have enough clubs struggling as is.

I think the best bet is to persist as we are, if TV revenue goes up then fine increase the cap - otherwise carry on as is. If we want to keep the best players in England the most sustainable way to do that is to maintain the policy that players need to be playing here to get international caps.

As I posted the other day, an England player gets something like £15k per game (I think) where they make the matchday squad (I'm assuming the EPS players will get some of that even if they don't make the squad). So even if they only play in half the games it's still an extra £70-80k a year. Added to that any personal sponsorship/advertising deals will be worth a lot more because they will have a higher profile. Frankly the French need to pay more to entice a player with international ambitions away from that.

Just look at the Welsh. When Gatland came in he made all the right noises about players needing to stay with the regions. However, he's made a number of exceptions and never reinforced the rule - and now the players a disappearing at a rate of knots. Had the WRU drawn a line on this issue they may have lost a few good players from the international squad in the short run but I suspect that there would be far fewer leaving Wales now.

by Bathman_in_London Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:52 pm

mawhis wrote:I don't see what sending half a dozen clubs to the wall would accomplish.

At the moment, clubs have a choice, spend as close to the salary cap as they can to stay competitive, or face relegation.

Removing the cap, as well as any financial assistance to smaller clubs will mean they will be faced with a catch-22 situation. Overspend on player salaries, put the club into debt, and potentially go under, or stick to a budget, remain uncompetitive, see their crowds and therefore income dwindle, and go under.

This entire sentiment stinks of England's largest clubs trying to pull up the ladder after them.

Agreed and why I really dislike the idea of ringfencing the league or shrinking it down. Why does any club, from Leicester to Worcester have the right to be in the top league as opposed to the likes of Bristol or whoever just because they were in the right place at the right time?

by Poorfour Thu 31 Jan 2013, 4:06 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:
mawhis wrote:I don't see what sending half a dozen clubs to the wall would accomplish.

At the moment, clubs have a choice, spend as close to the salary cap as they can to stay competitive, or face relegation.

Removing the cap, as well as any financial assistance to smaller clubs will mean they will be faced with a catch-22 situation. Overspend on player salaries, put the club into debt, and potentially go under, or stick to a budget, remain uncompetitive, see their crowds and therefore income dwindle, and go under.

This entire sentiment stinks of England's largest clubs trying to pull up the ladder after them.

Agreed and why I really dislike the idea of ringfencing the league or shrinking it down. Why does any club, from Leicester to Worcester have the right to be in the top league as opposed to the likes of Bristol or whoever just because they were in the right place at the right time?

I'm not in favour of ringfencing or shrinking the league. Exeter are the best thing to happen to the AP in a long time, because they've shown that it's possible for a side to come up from the championship and make it work in the AP both financially and in playing terms. They and LW have also strengthened the Championship because it's no longer possible for the relegated club to just yo-yo back up: there are now several teams capable of making a fight of it.

That said, "happened to be in the right place at the right time" doesn't quite do justice to the situation. There was definitely some right place, right time when the Prem was first formed (did you get the transition to professionalism right, and the right backers), but I think we are now getting to a point where the clubs that are there have earned the right to be there. Relegation has hit clubs that haven't made the grade, and several teams have come back from it in better shape than they went down (Saints, Quins, and now probably Newcastle). Sale and LI are perhaps the last survivors of the early professional era who haven't really evolved towards a sustainable model.

In the next 3-5 years, I think we will see a point where most teams in the AP are reaching sustainability in financial terms. As long as they increase the salary cap sensibly, that is.

by HongKongCherry Thu 31 Jan 2013, 7:16 pm

beshocked wrote:The AP needs to look at matching the Top 14 in regards to salaries. Maybe not right now but certainly in the next 5 years.

We don't want to see our English players in their prime going to France.

The ruling of non-Jeff based players not being picked has pretty much stopped any top English players leaving. Fat Armitage may stake a claim for a place now, but he certainly didn't when he left.

Furthermore, I feel for the English sides to match the French would be sheer madness. They all benefit from municipal stadiums and don't have those associated costs. All the top French sides are funded at a great loss by Sugar Daddies. That is not a sustainable business model. You can't argue the current French cap has led them to dominate Europe, as Toulouse are the only side to win it (3 times) since 1998. In the Jeff Tigers, Glaws and Saints are regularly posting profits and I'm pretty sure Quins are too; that is the model the English game should be aiming for.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 31 Jan 2013, 10:56 pm

If you ring fence it you franchise it obviously. Teams are not included through right place at the right time (as they were with the initial premiership) but because they offer the most sound proposal in terms of investement, sustainability, growth and natural fanbase. Franchises are non permanent and RFU controlled.
Thats the option.

As pointed out theres no need to match French salaries so long as the eps still demands players are home based. Matching them directly simply isnt viable unles rugby in this country suddenly grows hugely in its income or goes further down the road of spending beyond its means.
The masiver sums earnt by international players in addition to heir club salaries, plus endorsements and bonuses, however means a top england player can earn more here as an international than on even the most stupid contract in France. Plus somne players give a fig about the shirt.
Theres only one guy in France currently who would likely get in the EPS, and he wants to come home.

by DaveM Thu 31 Jan 2013, 11:36 pm

Only picking home players was an excellent decision, and one which has benefitted the English clubs.

Matching the French clubs in terms of salaries will never happen, nor is it desirable. The AP sides are doing the right thing, slowly building revenue, and the salary cap both protects clubs from themselves and makes the AP far more interesting than it would otherwise be.

As pointed out, professional rugby is still finding its feet, but proessioal rugby in England is doing ok and is definitely heading in th right direction.

by beshocked Fri 01 Feb 2013, 10:24 am

HongKongCherry wrote:
beshocked wrote:The AP needs to look at matching the Top 14 in regards to salaries. Maybe not right now but certainly in the next 5 years.

We don't want to see our English players in their prime going to France.

The ruling of non-Jeff based players not being picked has pretty much stopped any top English players leaving. Fat Armitage may stake a claim for a place now, but he certainly didn't when he left.

Furthermore, I feel for the English sides to match the French would be sheer madness. They all benefit from municipal stadiums and don't have those associated costs. All the top French sides are funded at a great loss by Sugar Daddies. That is not a sustainable business model. You can't argue the current French cap has led them to dominate Europe, as Toulouse are the only side to win it (3 times) since 1998. In the Jeff Tigers, Glaws and Saints are regularly posting profits and I'm pretty sure Quins are too; that is the model the English game should be aiming for.

I can understand that viewpoint but the French clubs are constantly recruiting more and more. I think the French could dominate in the future if we aren't careful.

Clermont,Toulon and Toulouse are their top 3 currently but you have Montpellier,Castres and Racing Metro as up and coming.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 01 Feb 2013, 11:51 am

They are yes, but not top English talent. what they are sucking up is the best of the foriegn mercenaries, players from less wealthy unions (wales), and those out of the international picture.

In terms of HC this will make things difficult ( although now they are poaching the Irish we may find things get easier on that front)I agree.

But what are teams to do? Spend money they dont have (wasps)?

Of course all the clubs are constantly pushing along with the RFU to drive revenues and increase the money coming in, but that has to be happening for any further domestic wage inflation or we are creating a huge danger here. The foundations of club rugby are already shakey and we have seen from soccer the dangers of a boom bust economy not to mention how much this can suck the soul from real clubs.
Sustainable investment is to be encouraged.Huge debts, dodgy finance and an investment in short termism over infrastrcuture ( stadia, academies, support of lower divisions etc) not.
Unrestricted wage inflation could be very damaging to those trying to invest sensibly.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 01 Feb 2013, 12:17 pm

beshocked wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:
beshocked wrote:The AP needs to look at matching the Top 14 in regards to salaries. Maybe not right now but certainly in the next 5 years.

We don't want to see our English players in their prime going to France.

But isn't this the whole point beshocked?

The PRL and to a lesser extent the RFU have done pretty much exactly the same in rugby market manipulation as the IRB Rules committee have done with the Laws.

With the IRB, problems have been identified and have dedicated to tinkering around the edges by piling on clauses and sub-clauses and excretions to a degree where seemingly no-one really has an understanding of the game because the house of cards is teetering because the foundations have been undermined. The extreme condition being that refs are instructed to interpret activities which directly contravene their own Law Book.

So it is with the PRL/RFU. I've a strong suspicion that the cartel payments and regulatory structures surrounding English rugby are as temporary as the initial espoused intention of Income Tax.

I'm not sure that any club getting into the top level of English these days doesn't understand the risks of professional sport.

The fay rugby children of ten years ago now have hairy chests and pubic hair and should no longer expect 'State' funding.

The ruling of non-Jeff based players not being picked has pretty much stopped any top English players leaving. Fat Armitage may stake a claim for a place now, but he certainly didn't when he left.

Furthermore, I feel for the English sides to match the French would be sheer madness. They all benefit from municipal stadiums and don't have those associated costs. All the top French sides are funded at a great loss by Sugar Daddies. That is not a sustainable business model. You can't argue the current French cap has led them to dominate Europe, as Toulouse are the only side to win it (3 times) since 1998. In the Jeff Tigers, Glaws and Saints are regularly posting profits and I'm pretty sure Quins are too; that is the model the English game should be aiming for.

I can understand that viewpoint but the French clubs are constantly recruiting more and more. I think the French could dominate in the future if we aren't careful.

Clermont,Toulon and Toulouse are their top 3 currently but you have Montpellier,Castres and Racing Metro as up and coming.

by beshocked Fri 01 Feb 2013, 12:24 pm

PSW it's just about finding that balance. I can see why you guys want to keep the status quo though.

For example I am thinking - how do we English clubs beat Clermont?

GreyTiger which is your post?

Perhaps alternatively we could persuade the French to lower their salaries?

If they succeed in luring Irish players away then it will just be the French running the show in the HC.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 01 Feb 2013, 12:46 pm

Play better than them. what are the Scottish clubs to do to beat the English ones? Bankrupt themselves buying in Dan Carter?

The current system allows for growth in the cap as income increases. The cap too is not the only reason that English clubs struggle in the HC, if our home grown players were better then we wouldnt need to overpaid saffers or retired all blacks.

Northampton reached a final a couple of years ago under the cap. Quins and Sarries monstered their groups this year, with Tigers getting through a pool of death (beating one of the big 3 frogs). Saints came closeish.

Its not like we are getting played out of existence by these highly payed French club mercenaries like...Hernadez

I am very much in the camp that sees an enjoyable and competitive hard fought Jeff as every bit as important to club rugby as an English club winning the HC every few years.

Either the status quo with affordable rises or a complete shake up to a franchise system and the final nail in proper clubs. Please no Premiership soccer model.

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