Change needed....Wales

First topic message reminder :

Not the first time I have suggested what I am about to suggest. It was met be by comments about me being reactionary. Well 6 months further on and my view remains the same.

Wales' coaching team needs to change.

Gatland who is known as a dictator has 3 weaklings under his ever growing shadow. People will point to success in Grandslams and the World cup but as many know the majority of this story is one of inconsistency and a lack of imagination.

Wales' gameplan has been the same for the last 6 years. It was tweaked slightly for the World cup only for Wales to return back to type. Gatland apparently has this mantra over the players though it seems, NONE of his other coaching staff seem to have.

Where does this lead? To a same old same old gameplan, a complete lack of imagination and a team, shorne of its only leader, low on confidence and looking for a first win in 9 matches.

People may point to the narrow losses against Australia. Really? A team completely descimated by injury. Please.

Gatlands job with the Lions has pinpointed the fact that while short-term success with new young players is only followed by a team low on confidence, lacking quality coaching and inspiration. Howley and co's lack of understanding of the teams current frailties only highlights these points.

A team possessing such young players' have completely lost faith in the coaching team. Can you blame them? For me we need a clear out of the coaching team in its entireity. Gatland can stay. But he needs smooth operators who will challenge his authority and gameplan and inspire the players to greatness.

WRU get your money out. Scour the Earth for coaches with experience, balls & invention.

Start with Leinsters Schmidt as backs coach please.

Amen

I'm picking up frustration from you bluesman....

It's funny because even though we play to an overly structured game plan we looked the worst coached team in the 1st weekend.

We do seem to find ourselves in that early 1990s position of picking the wrong players AND employing the wrong tactics. It isn't going to be easy for Howley to work his way out of this one.

We don't have the personnel to 'control a game' with pick & drive and kick & chase now. 2008 and 2012 are in the past. We have to try and score points from the start, we can't just play the containing game and wait for the opposition to blow themselves out (well, we can if we don't mind going in to halftime 30 points down).

We have to pick players who offer some threat to the opposition or at the very least can hold their own in contact.

If Howley persists with more of the same we're guaranteed the wooden spoon.

I am not giving Phillips a get out clause, and making comparisons to Danny Care is very silly!!

Care is a speed junky, doesn't give himself time to look up it's a case of pass or run, Phillips spends most of his time shoulder at the forwards with the ball in clear sight (obviously to add weight to the ruck as he doesn't trust we can secure ball) screaming at his forwards to set the pods they should be. He isn't deciding himself that we need to play with 3 phases, use a pod then go wide every time, he is told to do so!!

It's funny because even though we play to an overly structured game plan we looked the worst coached team in the 1st weekend.

This is exactly the problem, and the best quote Ive heard!!!

We are overly structured and undercoached, with a selection policy of 'If he did it last year he can do it again'. IMHO the 2nd half turn around can only be attributed to players deciding to try more, we ran different phase plays, and the ball went much wider. The introduction of certain (form) players helped too!!

Casartelli wrote:We do seem to find ourselves in that early 1990s position of picking the wrong players AND employing the wrong tactics. It isn't going to be easy for Howley to work his way out of this one.

We don't have the personnel to 'control a game' with pick & drive and kick & chase now. 2008 and 2012 are in the past. We have to try and score points from the start, we can't just play the containing game and wait for the opposition to blow themselves out (well, we can if we don't mind going in to halftime 30 points down).

We have to pick players who offer some threat to the opposition or at the very least can hold their own in contact.

If Howley persists with more of the same we're guaranteed the wooden spoon.

Early 90's?

We didnt have any options in the Early 90s. We were lucky to be able to actually field a team.

maestegmafia wrote:

Casartelli wrote:We do seem to find ourselves in that early 1990s position of picking the wrong players AND employing the wrong tactics. It isn't going to be easy for Howley to work his way out of this one.

We don't have the personnel to 'control a game' with pick & drive and kick & chase now. 2008 and 2012 are in the past. We have to try and score points from the start, we can't just play the containing game and wait for the opposition to blow themselves out (well, we can if we don't mind going in to halftime 30 points down).

We have to pick players who offer some threat to the opposition or at the very least can hold their own in contact.

If Howley persists with more of the same we're guaranteed the wooden spoon.

Early 90's?

We didnt have any options in the Early 90s. We were lucky to be able to actually field a team.

You knows what I mean. We compounded our many problems by selecting people like Simon Hill, Andy Booth, Nigel Meek, Jason Ball, Neil Boobyer, Colin Stephens, Martyn Morris, Stuart Parfitt....the list goes on and on. All decent for their clubs but should never have been near international rugby.

It's irrelevant how well someone has gone for their region, in the Premiership or 'in training'. We are struggling badly and, at the minimum, we have to pick players who offer some sort of attacking threat, or robust defence, or anything at all, at test level.

Having Hook, Kohn, Owens and Tipuric sat warming the bench while the opposition race to a near 30 point lead while we try and 'control the game' is a luxury we can ill afford.

We have to have a beefy front 5 against France, so Kohn and Evans to start; Coombs on the bench. James at LH, I'd pick Hibbard at hooker, he's stood out this season and has a physicality and aggression Rees doesn't.

I think we have a problem with the backs, I wish I knew what the solution is. One possible solution would be a fit Gavin Henson, but we haven't got that. I think I'd rather have Byrne at FB and 1/2p on the wing, but which do you lose out of Cuthbert and North? Cuthbert is defensively weak, but scores a lot of tries (not just by finishing off moves); North carried well against Ireland.

Why are people obsessing over the backline, it's like trying to refit a wing mirror after a head on collision!!!

Also the selecting of your biggest tight 5 for France will do nothing but admit to the French they worry you!! The Italian pack was more than a match, the English will be more than a match as will we. It's a case of picking form players not big players!!!

This myth that the French eat teams up front has gone, Italy, Ireland England and us have all got the better of them in recent years, wheres the myth still coming from?

My wales team for france would be:

Wales: G Thomas (capt); K Morgan, T Shanklin, G Henson, S Williams; S Jones, D Peel; G Jenkins, M Davies, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; R Jones, M Williams, M Owen.
Replacements: R McBryde, J Yapp, J Thomas, R Sowden-Taylor, G Cooper, C Sweeney, R Williams.

They did it in 2005 so lets go on past reputations/performances and pick them. Howlers law!

Impossible Standards wrote:My wales team for france would be:

Wales: G Thomas (capt); K Morgan, T Shanklin, G Henson, S Williams; S Jones, D Peel; G Jenkins, M Davies, A Jones; B Cockbain, R Sidoli; R Jones, M Williams, M Owen.
Replacements: R McBryde, J Yapp, J Thomas, R Sowden-Taylor, G Cooper, C Sweeney, R Williams.

They did it in 2005 so lets go on past reputations/performances and pick them. Howlers law!

.
Good side, but you would have to drop Peel as Howler doesn't like him.

BlueNote wrote:We have to have a beefy front 5 against France, so Kohn and Evans to start; Coombs on the bench. James at LH, I'd pick Hibbard at hooker, he's stood out this season and has a physicality and aggression Rees doesn't.

I think we have a problem with the backs, I wish I knew what the solution is. One possible solution would be a fit Gavin Henson, but we haven't got that. I think I'd rather have Byrne at FB and 1/2p on the wing, but which do you lose out of Cuthbert and North? Cuthbert is defensively weak, but scores a lot of tries (not just by finishing off moves); North carried well against Ireland.

Not that I think Henson is the answer, but he is fit and playing again (off the bench for LW yesterday), also he did play well in the past, so he must be called up by Howler.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why are people obsessing over the backline, it's like trying to refit a wing mirror after a head on collision!!!

Also the selecting of your biggest tight 5 for France will do nothing but admit to the French they worry you!! The Italian pack was more than a match, the English will be more than a match as will we. It's a case of picking form players not big players!!!

This myth that the French eat teams up front has gone, Italy, Ireland England and us have all got the better of them in recent years, wheres the myth still coming from?

Although - if you have a second row that is a form player for the best club in the English league, or one who has shown good form in three games in the 2nd row for Newport Gwent Dragons - I say start with the former. Particularly if he is three inches taller and five stones heavier.

Coombs gave it 100% against Ireland but just doesn't have the power to do anything in contact at test level. Picamoles and that monster that France brought off the bench will literally pick him up and run down the pitch with him.

Same applies to Shingler and, sadly, Rees now. If you can't compete in terms of power at test level you have to find a way to be effective (like Tipuric does, by running at space, not opponents - the genius!) or, regrettably, go home.

Realistically though changes should be made and as Bluenote says there is a good call for beefing up that second row with Kohn, making the front row more abrasive with Hibbard too.

I watched Roberts a lot on Saturday and he gets lost in attack, takes positions before moves that dont look good for the future attacking move and he can get his angles right.

Byrne would be a good addition. might also be tempted to try North in the centre as has been mentioned a few times.

I would forgive JD2 his two silly passes as it seemed more that the lads around him were eagerly over running rather than him passing poorly. Bar that he had a good game.

James
Hibbard
Jones
Kohn
Evans
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Phillips
Biggar
Cuthbert
Davies
North
Halfpenny
Byrne

Reps

Rees
Bevington
Mitchell
2 of Ryan Jones, Shingler, Coombs dependent on fitness
Lloyd
Hook
S Williams, L Williams or Roberts

That pack looks a lot stronger on paper/screen.

Cas

I agree that Coombs would be better served with a bench spot v France, Evans and Kohn can do a job, and Coombs will be raring to go for the next game (Not that I agree Kohn should be in the squad at all, I personally would prefer to see a welsh lock crisis with young welsh regional players involved than draft in older foregin heads)

Coombs certainly didn't lack agression against Ireland, who IMHO have some of the best ball carriers if europe. Picamoles and co can be chopped like anyone else.

RE Rees, he is a fantastic scrummager, but Owens and Hibbard offer so much more dynamism and theyre hardly smaller!

Shinglar I have to agree with, but he has more bulk than Tips who I'd play instead of him.

My lineup would probably be...

James (wish Gill was in the side)
Hibbard
Jones
Evans
Kohn
Warb
Tipuric
Falatau
Phillips
Biggar/Hook (doesn't really matter)
North
Roberts
JD2
Cuthbert
1/2p

I can see arguments for Owens, Coombs, R. Jones, Byrne, and in many ways it would suit them to be played, I mean Owens won't be happy if Rees starts over him then Hibbard does! Coombs won't be happy to be dropped for a 31 yr old Englishman, Warbs can't be dropped and Tipuric must be wondering what he has to do to get a game, start kicking the goals?!?!

We have a severe problem with player mindset right now, 8 losses in a row, form players left out for lesser players, and Howley sounds like a headless chicken, theyre all questioning every decision!

Casartelli wrote:That pack looks a lot stronger on paper/screen.

Strong powerful front five but a wiry loose trio in the backrow should be similar to France.

I dont hold much to our chances, wouldn't bet my angry neighbours house on it but I would like to see us play some of the good stuff that we did on Saturday.

Up high in the MS saturday afternoon at around the 33 points to 22 mark with ten minutes to go, there were a hell of a lot of scared Irishman.

Wales are a good team playing beneath themselves. They need a good kick up the Backside and a bit of confidence from the off.

I'd play Hook as he can do everything that Biggar does, kicks it a bit further, covers back brilliantly and might actually do something to threaten their defence. Leave the others (they won a GS after all).

I think Warburton could be really good at 6. He's strong enough to hit people low, just like Lydiate does - and he's also fast. Faletau is actually quite good at stealing ball at the breakdown, so if Tipuric, Faletau and Warbs worked as a unit (rather than trying to all do the same job) - it could be very effective. If we just let France stroll over the gainline for 40 mins like we did with Ireland - we'll get hammered again.

Howley will pick the same team though. 'Give the boys another wun out to expwess themselves'.

Personally I think I would go for something like;

Halfpenny, North (or Cuthbert), Sc Williams, Roberts, Walker (or Li Williams), Biggar, Phillips;
James, Hibbard (or Owens), Jones, Evans, Coombs, R Jones, Tipuric, Faletau
(Bench -: Owens/Hibbard, Jenkins, Mitchell, Kohn, Warburton, Ll Williams/Knoyle, Hook, Cuthbert/J Davies)

I like the idea of bringing back Byrne... he's in form at Claremont no??

Although I would move Halfpenny to rightwing and drop Cuthbert to the bench.

Might be an idea to have hook replace Biggar.

With Philliips, Hook and Byrne in the backline they will have good inside knowledge of the french team and will know the players well. Perhaps a little late to bring in Byrne though... has he even been with the side???

fa - Byrne is in the Welsh Squad, and was at the RWC (I believe) so should be ok.

The french looked dangerous in attack and their left wing is a monster.... can Cuthbert keep tabs on him??? Halfpenny certainly could.

The one guy playing well is the guy who's job is least effected by the coaching set up (the fullback) Why would we want to move 1/2p from there to a wider position when he is playing so well. If someone want better lines lets move JD2 to 12 and Roberts/North to 13, if we want to be more solid out wide lets drop Cuthbert and give Liam Williams what he deserves.

Wheres the sense in moving 1/2p and potentially disrupting our star player who also kicks the points that is keeping us competitive???

as a back 3 who would you prefer to see.

North, Halfpenny & Byrne.
North, Curthbert & Halfpenny.
North, Williams & Halfpenny.

IMO the top selection is stronger both in defence and attack. True halfpenny has played well but I think he would play well from the wing also.

Byrne is a proven performer, knows the french players and game and is strong both in defence and attack.
Cuthbert can't defend, Williams is a little risky to debut in Paris although seems dynamite with the ball in hand.

Its not about dropping halfpenny, its about improving the team.

Putting North in at 13 would be a disaster. 13 is a very tough position defensively... North has already proved to be a little suspect on that front (albeit not out of courage) and needs more time to develop his game. He's not bang in form either so I wouldn't put him in there unless he's high on confidence.

Ask NZ wings about Wiliams debut, he snapped a number in two when they tried to run wide!!

1/2p is Wales form player and despite all the guff of the last 12 months remains a shining light, he will cut in half anybody that attempts to go at him, his kicking out of hand is superb, and he is in a very good goal kicking place. It's simple, for all the possible combos who is the one player in the Wales team we cannot afford to lose form? 1/2p for me so he is nailed on at 15!!!

I like Byrne, and in any other scenario I would agree, but doing anything to change 1/2p's game in any way is suicide!

Does anyone know when the side will be announced?

I would guess that if Halfpenny and Byrne are on the field they would inter-change, at least that is what I would do anyway to keep that French pack running backwards and forwards in their own half. I got a feeling France will be looking to turn our ball over and score from the counter-attack. So guys Kohn, Tips, Warbs and Toby need to start...

On Cuthbert, I know his defence is weak but for me, I'd stick with a guy scoring tries. Tries win you games and Wales need points early on. I think taking Cuthbert out will weaken our chances of scoring tries. His defence will only improve by getting more game time at intl level. It was only last year he was on a developmental contract with the Blues, he's come a long way in a short space of time, he needs more time to develop his game.

Good news is Ryan Jones and Hibbard are fit for next week and have to come back into the side along with James.

Liam against Ireland Cuthbert scored on and directly leaked one, so really his try scoring was totally negated by his defence.

Ye the place to learn how to defend is at your club, not internationl level!!!

The only thing I think you can get away with at international level that needs improving is experience and leadership, the types of things international level standard would improve without your performance being directly related to.

Good case for Byrne at fifteen, Halfpenny to wing?

Maybe drop Cuthbert for Liam Williams?

Eli Walker is brilliant in attack but not a better defender than Cuthbert.