v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 6

Fridays two match up's will be remember for an epic encounter between Woods and Bolt, the Olympic sprinter was way in out in front for the majority of the day only for Tiger to turn it around and eventually claim a place in the last 16 eliminating one of his biggest rivals for the v2 GOAT crown.

Joining Woods in the next round is fellow golfer Jack Nicklaus who trounced American footballs Jerry Rice.

Today's first match up will see Jesse Owen take on Ayrton Senna.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the "quiet revolution." In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.

For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been "bastardized by white commercial interests."

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, "For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world."

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, "Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway."

Are Senna's achievements amplified by his untimely death? Are Owen's by the timing of those Olympics?

I don't know. Voted for Senna though.

What the hell is up with the draw?

Two of the really great sportsman have to face off in this heat and in heat 7 you get three relative no marks??

IMO F1 isn't a sport. Neither is Demolition Derby, Chariot Racing or Fox Hunting. Yes I know the definition of sport. Even so, for me, anything which utilises an engine is not a sport. I find it impossible to compare men who use machine or beast to men who use their body and an inanimate object.

I realise sneakers, boxing gloves and rackets, are all engineered products. I just feel the wearers of such products should not be compared to the drivers of cars

I voted for Owens.

McLaren wrote:What the hell is up with the draw?

Two of the really great sportsman have to face off in this heat and in heat 7 you get three relative no marks??

It's called 'random'.

Il Gialloblu wrote:Are Senna's achievements amplified by his untimely death? Are Owen's by the timing of those Olympics?

I think in both cases, yes circumstances have played a part in mythologising Senna and Owens achievements. The only thing I would say regarding Senna is that he was coming towards the later stages of his career anyway, so it is reasonable to make a judgement based on what he actually achieved rather than on unfulfilled potential.

Owens of course only had a very brief career at the top of track and field, in part because of WW2 but mainly because of his need to make a living and so making money from his athletic prowess. However, between his world records in 1935 and the greatness and symbolism of his 1936 Olympics, he packed a lot in to a short career as an elite sportsman.

Close, but I'm just tipped towards Owens - I always feel with Senna that his return in terms of race and title wins was slightly below what he should have managed given his driving talent.

Hero wrote:

McLaren wrote:What the hell is up with the draw?

Two of the really great sportsman have to face off in this heat and in heat 7 you get three relative no marks??

It's called 'random'.

This is a little like real madrid and man utd meeting in the last 16 of the CL, oh wait.

To help make a decision in this tough draw is the GOAT competition for purely sporting performance or does it also incorporate off track impact?

That's up to the individual themselves on their voting, if you feel that off track events either hinder or help their case in your voting then you make that call, others may prefer to vote purely on the achievements in their sport.

Hero,

Any reason why there is not a case put forward by someone for Senna?

No-one came forward when we asked for a writer, please feel free though to pen something together if you wish!

McLaren wrote:Hero,

Any reason why there is not a case put forward by someone for Senna?

In short, no-one volunteered to write one. If anyone does we'll add it to the OP quick-smart.

Edit, Hero beat me to the reply

Personally I voted for Owens, IMO Senna's tragic early death robbed him of the chance to be F1's all time great, so for me he's behind Schumacher and Fangio

FWIW, here's the link to the BBC's F1 Greatest Driver countdown, which had Senna as the best incidentally:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20324109

Still Owens for me though.

I really Respect Owens.. What a man...

I dont think either are what I could ever call a GOAT of there own sports let alone the overall.

But Both are without question people that transended there sports...

mysti

More than most sports it is very hard to compare drivers in f1 across the generations. There is a major difference between the guys in the 60's who not only had to drive quickly, but also had to drive to stay alive and the way people can push to the limit in modern f1.

What is certain is that senna could extract the most from the cars he drove and do this more skillfully than any other driver of his generation. It is hard to see anyone beating him in identical machinery.

My main concern with senna is his win at all costs attitude..

And I believe that if he drove the way he did back then today he would be banned..

LH, Grosjong etc are heavily critized when they race too aggresively. Whereas senna become a superstar due to his aggresiveness..

You and Sir Jackie Stewart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCWDSpwv9U

Yep fair questions from Sir Jackie!

Interesting that Senna was 'possibly' involved in more colisions in a few years than the other greats did in there own lifetimes!!

Sennas skill level was beyond question. However in those days was lack of fear more important in F1 racing!

"However in those days was lack of fear more important in F1 racing!"

Probably not then or at any other time. If you consider the success of Prost in the same era as senna, a man who was famed for his ability to plan and treat the car in the most efficient way possible it shows there is always more to driving an f1 car than being fearless.

Another struggle to separate between 2 I don't personally see as overall GOAT.

Owens has sneaked it for me. Just.

After much deliberation I have gone for senna. He was competitive for much longer therefore there is more data to be used as evidence that he performed at a higher level than his peers.

I have chosen to base this only on performance as thinking about impacts outside of their sports was making this decision too tough.

I'm going for Jesse Owens for a couple of reasons.

Firstly I have more sporting respect for someone that runs than someone that drives.

Secondly it's the old argument about size of fields. Pretty much anyone has an opportunity to compete in athletics where as entry into motor racing is somewhat restricted.

My head has ruled my heart and I've gone for Senna.

Bolt is faster than Owens for starts so it aint going to be Owens thats the GOAT. Not by along shot. Not voting for Senna either. F1 is about cars. Senna might be the best driver of all time but not the best athlete Car does most of the work.

severe-mma wrote:Bolt is faster than Owens for starts so it aint going to be Owens thats the GOAT. Not by along shot.

Can't fault the logic here.

Can we swap Sugar Ray Robinson for Audley Harrison? Audley is much bigger so he should take Robinson's place.

Modern nutrition blah blah blah. Marciano was a bum blah blah blah. Where is Az when you need him?

Being an F1 driver requires considerable fitness and concentration levels. Just saying.

It's OwenS. S on the end, for God's sake, for the second time.