The Crunch: Ireland v England Sunday 10th February 2013

First topic message reminder :

aka L'O'Choc: Irelande v Angleterre Dimanche le 10me Février 2013After going AWOL again yesterday, the French have most likely reduced the 6Ns title to a single game to determine the title.

Such a shame.

Discussion about the game - not about France going walkabout as originally intended.

Teams:

Greater Dublin Representative XXIII

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/42)
14 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/2)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/121)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/72)
11 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/4)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/35)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/15)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/36)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/63)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/25)
4 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/7)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/24)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/10)
7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/23)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/53) Captain

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/3)
18 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster/3)
19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
20 - Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/5)
21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/48)
22 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
23 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/35)

The Perfidious Albion

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 7 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 30 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 12 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 1 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 12 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 13 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 6 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 36 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 5 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
6. James Haskell (London Wasps, 46 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 13 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 5 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 16 caps)
20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
23. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)

The trouble with Ireland for Tuilagi coming off the bench is that despite coming back from injury his form before that was very good, and the injury time short and I think he will relish the challenge of winning his place back and playing against BOD. He will surely be fired up

GunsGerms I see what you are trying to do.

You're trying to build England up and make out as if Ireland are the underdogs. Ireland aren't.

Ireland hot and cold? Hammering Argentina and beating Wales away from home doesn't seem to give that impression.

beshocked wrote:GunsGerms I see what you are trying to do.

You're trying to build England up and make out as if Ireland are the underdogs. Ireland aren't.

Ireland hot and cold? Hammering Argentina and beating Wales away from home doesn't seem to give that impression.

Whilst also bringing up the old England are so arrogant argument, by disguising it as a complement...

Personally i like the way SL is going about this task...and i think many of his critics are beginning to see things positively aswell..

Sunday hopefully will be a cracker...

https://www.rfu.com/news/2013/february/news-articles/080213_england_team_ireland

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 7 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 30 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 12 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 1 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 12 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 13 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 6 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 36 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 5 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
6. James Haskell (London Wasps, 46 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 13 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 5 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 16 caps)
20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
23. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)

i suspected this would be the line-up. I don't get Wood at 8 and Haskell at 6. I would have thought them better in the opposite position. Other than that, I am not surprised. Not being a Mike Brown fan at international level, I would have preferred to see real wing playing left wing.

doctor grey would you have wanted Strettle starting?

Unfortunately there's no left winger really putting their hands up except for possibly Varndell. Varndell is ignored because of his defense but should he?

I hope Brown and Goode up their game or it could be a long afternoon.

Like you I am nervous about the backrow. The backrow that performed so well vs NZ and Scotland had Morgan in there.

Apart from Wilson, the bench looks very strong though.

doctor_grey wrote:i suspected this would be the line-up. I don't get Wood at 8 and Haskell at 6. I would have thought them better in the opposite position. Other than that, I am not surprised. Not being a Mike Brown fan at international level, I would have preferred to see real wing playing left wing.

The only real issue with 8 is that they control the ball in scrums. Perhaps in training Woods' is better at it than Haskell (who has been pretty poor in the past). The numbers only have any real meaning in the scrum (even then they can change)

Goode hadnt been playing though , so probably wasnt totally match fit. Hopefull he'll be more so on Sunday.

Brown...well thats one to watch ...id expect to see Ireland running in his direction...his defence is not the problem...maybe his positioning is.

Morgans absnce is a worry...as he started to show his carrying ability. Haskell needs a BIG game in that department ...i want to see him running at every chance.

I also think if ever theres a time to see Marler bring his carrying game through at international level....this is the one.

Would rather have had Billy Vunipola on the bench instead of Waldrom but other than that. Yes it's a pretty strong bench.

This is Wood though - and hes probably the most versatile back row we have had for a few years.

It all makes sense but its a shame in one respect. Can you imagine the impact of having both Vunipola brothers, Tuilagi and Hartley all coming on at the same time.

Can't really complain about the team. Given the starting back row can all play across the positions I thought it would have been a good opportunity to have a specialist 8 on the bench in Vunipola. Saying that don't think Waldrom will let us down.

Would never happen but I would have also been tempted to go without a fly half on the bench and gone with an out and out winger.

Love the strength of our bench at the moment but just think it could be even stronger!

doctor_grey wrote:i suspected this would be the line-up. I don't get Wood at 8 and Haskell at 6. I would have thought them better in the opposite position. Other than that, I am not surprised. Not being a Mike Brown fan at international level, I would have preferred to see real wing playing left wing.

Unfortunately Doc, I'm not sure that we have much in the way of options in the back three.

The Academies don't appear to be churning out the graduates with the requisite proven talent and skills (apparently).

May is currently taking his Masters. A bog standard Bachelors being no longer sufficient for top-level recruitment.

I love that we have 1 winger in the whole 23!

Toadfish I agree the 23 is light on wingers but as previously said there's no one really standing out.

Geordiefalcon I agree. Brown's defense isn't in question. It was his positioning and decision making that was poor. Playing out of position I am sure led to this.

Goode has a lot to prove. Big performance needed from him as his place has been questioned and rightly so. Deserves this chance though after his consistent performances for England before the Scotland game.

Is Wood at 8 looking to the future of a possible back row of Croft/Robson/Wood?

I hope not broadland...im just not a Croft fan....

I think ENG starting with youngs in the scrum is interesting. They will be going up against a form front row come scrumtime. Perhaps Hartley would have been a better choice with his added leadership needed for the big game.

They will be up against it.

Wish Waldrom wasn't there. Would much rather see Vunipola on. Imagine subbing on Manu, Billy and Mako all at once after the half time break. Destruction.

I'm not convinced by a future front row of Croft, Robshaw, Wood. Still seems a little lightweight to me.

fa0019 wrote:I think ENG starting with youngs in the scrum is interesting. They will be going up against a form front row come scrumtime. Perhaps Hartley would have been a better choice with his added leadership needed for the big game.

They will be up against it.

They will but I suppose its better than starting with Hartley and then bringing Youngs on as a sub later. I'm not saying that Youngs is bad, far from it, but he wouldn't be making much of an impact if he did come on. Hartley can come on and make a difference with his added bulk. The set piece is crucial, so I hope Youngs finds his range. This can let him down at times.

So just the one forced change in the back row, with Waldrom stepping up to the bench, and Manu coming back as far as the bench in place of Strettle.

Not unhappy with the selection - as with others, I'm interested that SL has picked Haskell at 6 and Wood at 8. Maybe looking to give Wood a chance to use his better pace as a ball carrier in broken field settings, but is it going to undermine the good work he's been doing alongside Robshaw as a pair of marauding flankers.

As with others, I'm still to be convinced that playing Mike Brown on the wing is getting the best out of him - his performances against both the ABs and Scotland showed that with the ball he is very good, but that his defensive instincts in the position are poor and he can be out-paced by genuine wingers. The question is though who will do a better job there.

Some good quality on the bench, with Hartley, Lawes, Care, Flood and Manu, all of whom are proven internation class players. The 8 players on the bench only have 38 fewer caps than the starting XV (200 v 238). I assume that last week we actually had more caps on the bench than in the starting XV (Morgan starting, presumably has about 10 caps, and Haskell on the bench, not much change in experience between Strettle and Manu T).

Geordiefalcon Croft is an interesting player. He had a decent 2012 6 nations. His try vs France in particular was electric. He has been dogged by injuries though which hasn't helped.

On the other hand sometimes it can be difficult to find the right balance in the backrow with Croft there. He doesn't give me the same reassurance that Wood,Robshaw and Morgan do.

The backrow of Wood,Robshaw,Morgan worked very well as a combo vs Scotland and NZ.

It remains to be seen whether Haskell can meld with the other two effectively.

broadlandboy I presume you mean Robshaw, not the Quins 2nd row Robson.

Another point - isn't it refreshing now that SL seems to have addressed the 2nd row conundrum with both Launchbury and Parling seemingly working well in tandem.

bluestonevedder wrote:Wish Waldrom wasn't there. Would much rather see Vunipola on. Imagine subbing on Manu, Billy and Mako all at once after the half time break. Destruction.

I'm not convinced by a future front row of Croft, Robshaw, Wood. Still seems a little lightweight to me.

I would prefer any decently qualified 'foreigner'/Englishman rather than Waldrom.

Nothing against Wadrom in particular - just his eligibility.

greytiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Wish Waldrom wasn't there. Would much rather see Vunipola on. Imagine subbing on Manu, Billy and Mako all at once after the half time break. Destruction.

I'm not convinced by a future front row of Croft, Robshaw, Wood. Still seems a little lightweight to me.

I would prefer any decently qualified 'foreigner'/Englishman rather than Waldrom.

Nothing against Wadrom in particular - just his eligibility.

Ih he's elligible, he's elligible. There's no point worrying about it in terms of morals.

greytiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Wish Waldrom wasn't there. Would much rather see Vunipola on. Imagine subbing on Manu, Billy and Mako all at once after the half time break. Destruction.

I'm not convinced by a future front row of Croft, Robshaw, Wood. Still seems a little lightweight to me.

I would prefer any decently qualified 'foreigner'/Englishman rather than Waldrom.

Nothing against Wadrom in particular - just his eligibility.

If I thought Waldrom was the 2nd best no 8 EQ on current form I would want him there. IMO B.Vunipola is the future and should be on the bench.

If we took your approach the likes of Tuilagi,the Vunipola bros and Barritt wouldn't be in the squad.

Quite right Tigers only signed him in the first place because he wouldnt be buggering off to bench warm for test teams on important Jeff weekends.

Just as expected really. Not surprised MT starts on the bench as no doubt he isn't as match fit as the very capable deputy 36. MT will no doubt make an impact from the bench at some point.

Its gonna be a close one.

True PSW. Waldrom does have an English granny though.

Isn't B Vunipola recovering from an injury?

beshocked wrote:

greytiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Wish Waldrom wasn't there. Would much rather see Vunipola on. Imagine subbing on Manu, Billy and Mako all at once after the half time break. Destruction.

I'm not convinced by a future front row of Croft, Robshaw, Wood. Still seems a little lightweight to me.

I would prefer any decently qualified 'foreigner'/Englishman rather than Waldrom.

Nothing against Wadrom in particular - just his eligibility.

If I thought Waldrom was the 2nd best no 8 EQ on current form I would want him there. IMO B.Vunipola is the future and should be on the bench.

If we took your approach the likes of Tuilagi,the Vunipola bros and Barritt wouldn't be in the squad.

Decently qualified...ie a bit better than Shane Howarthing up a grandparent.

It should be Nick Easter though. What bugs me with Waldrom is that he is neither the future nor the past. Im not fussed that Beeweeyrunnypoopoo isnt in the side personaly, especially judging by his brothers "contributions" so far. Hes a big aggressive runner, thats about it. England dont so much need that for this game, they need players that can match the intensity and workrate of the Irish forwards. Waldrom is a bit slow off the mark at times but despite the blubber he is 80 minutes fit, something you could never accuse Morgan of.
There has to be a slight concern about Wood at 8 (but then we have a fly half at 15 and a fullback on the wing and an ugly duckling on the other wing ...then everyones moaning that we left out the scrum half who plays fullback ...) but that aside we have a hugely dynamic backrow with bags tackling and lineout support in it. Maybe they put Wood at 8 so hes closer to Robshaw and can tell him what to do?

Im vaguely happy, pending the actual outcome of the match.

PSW true Morgan is not a 80 minutes man but you don't necessarily need that.

Morgan running over Visser for example was priceless and I thought he put in a decent shift.

In regards to M.Vunipola give the guy a chance. He's not played that much top level rugby actually.

M.Vunipola and Morgan really look like they could afford to stay behind after training and hit the treadmills for a little longer than everyone else.

Beshocked

I appreciate Crofts abilities...he has pace..good handling, lineout etc...but i dont know i just feel hes a luxury. I prefer a 6 who has pace, is a lineout option etc BUT can also mix it with the best in the tight. I firmly believe in Wood we have that player.

As you say Wood, Robshaw and Morgan offers a very nice balance...as all can actually cover the other back row positions aswell so offer a all round skills set.

The second row is looking strong now. It'll be interesting to see if Lawes can force his way back into a starting lineup now...

3 quality players...with more coming through from the clubs. I rate your young lad Kruis highly..actually reminds of Tim Rodber...who wasnt half a bad player...

GeordieFalcon wrote:I appreciate Crofts abilities...he has pace..good handling, lineout etc...but i dont know i just feel hes a luxury. I prefer a 6 who has pace, is a lineout option etc BUT can also mix it with the best in the tight. I firmly believe in Wood we have that player.

+1

Croft has utility value though.

He's an 'operator' in positions from 4-8

Anyone know how SBW and Cooper got on in their fights this morning?

Highlights of Cooper's fight are on Rugbydump, Guns.

As far as I know both of them won.

SBW was awarded the points verdict over the 44 year-old Botha, having been battered for 10 rounds. A home-town decision if ever there was one, and he was, quite rightly, booed out of the ring.

A candidate for worst decision of the year already, and it's only February.

captain carrantuohil wrote:SBW was awarded the points verdict over the 44 year-old Botha, having been battered for 10 rounds. A home-town decision if ever there was one, and he was, quite rightly, booed out of the ring.

A candidate for worst decision of the year already, and it's only February.

Reports also say the fight was stopped in the 10th round even though it was meant to be 12 rounds.

http://tvnz.co.nz/othersports-news/sbw-survives-botha-test-but-controversy-reigns-5337585

greytiger wrote:

nobbled wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:The game's on Sunday.

England win on Sundays.

That is all.

Because God loves us!

Which is just as well 'cos everyone else hates us...

I thought God was playing for the Irish nobbled.

Brian Cox and Richard Dawkins will be happy though.

Loving the banter lads. Its going to be some game.

England have to be realistic favs for this. They are a year ahead us in their redevelopment, are playing with great fluidity, have a coach I admire so much, have a completely different, young, team and team-spirit than 2 years ago... And they have just well beaten the ABs, when no other NH team could come even near them.

New England are on a roll leading up to 2015. Its up to us to try and stop it, for a day at least.

Believe.

Was looking to see the last time France won the wooden spoon and it was 1999.. the same year they beat the ABs and got to the RWC final... amazing.

Other than that it was 1969.

Can't see it happening though. I think they will put in a big performance tomorrow.

My ESPN team is certainly going to feature Benjamin Fall.... given he's facing revolving door Cuthbert.

Fa0019 Did you watch the SBW fight?

beshocked wrote:PSW true Morgan is not a 80 minutes man but you don't necessarily need that.

Morgan running over Visser for example was priceless and I thought he put in a decent shift.

In regards to M.Vunipola give the guy a chance. He's not played that much top level rugby actually.

Morgan was immense v Scotland. A human wrecking-ball. I wish him a speedy recovery, but I'm glad he´s very doubtful for this one.

Liking the look of 36 as well. A cultured, intelligent and very strong player. I still expect BOD and Darce to do the usual job in the centre, Manu or not.

Man, it is a huge enough game as it is, but this is like a Lions Tour pre-Test, for positions all over the field.

Bring it On!

Didn't actually... my wee lad has chicken pox at the moment so I've been up all night.

From our side of the world though the result wasn't popular from what I've read on the news reports... heard SBW was booed as they all thought he lost.

Can't have been that bad though.... Botha lost on points to a top10 guy last year so SBW can't be that bad a fighter.

Watched the highlights. SBW was very lucky. Cant believe cooper ko'd his opponent.

It's interesting how many Irish fans are putting England as favourites, and how many of us are doing the opposite.

I think it's a very tough call on paper as a match between the two form teams of the NH. I'm expecting Ireland to win by less than 7, based mainly on their being at home, probably in a lowish scoring game. Hope I'm wrong, but I just think your extra experience and quality out wide will make the difference.

SBW was dominant for most of the fight, but flagged near the end, and Botha had him in serious trouble in 9 and 10. Bizzarely, the fight was cut to 10 rounds during the fight (announced after the 9th which SBW was taking a beating), baffling the crowd and commentators.

SBW barely hung on and would have been KO'd if it had been 12 rounds. Wreaks of a fix.

maverickmak wrote:SBW was dominant for most of the fight, but flagged near the end, and Botha had him in serious trouble in 9 and 10. Bizzarely, the fight was cut to 10 rounds during the fight (announced after the 9th which SBW was taking a beating), baffling the crowd and commentators.

SBW barely hung on and would have been KO'd if it had been 12 rounds. Wreaks of a fix.

Does alright doesn't it.

Funny watching Cooper fight doing his goosestep round the ring. He has chicken legs like a lot of boxers too.

...sorry I know wrong thread. Ill shut up now.