The Crunch: Ireland v England Sunday 10th February 2013

First topic message reminder :

aka L'O'Choc: Irelande v Angleterre Dimanche le 10me Février 2013After going AWOL again yesterday, the French have most likely reduced the 6Ns title to a single game to determine the title.

Such a shame.

Discussion about the game - not about France going walkabout as originally intended.

Teams:

Greater Dublin Representative XXIII

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/42)
14 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/2)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/121)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/72)
11 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/4)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/35)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/15)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/36)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/63)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/25)
4 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/7)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/24)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/10)
7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/23)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/53) Captain

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/3)
18 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster/3)
19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
20 - Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/5)
21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/48)
22 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
23 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/35)

The Perfidious Albion

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 7 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 30 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 12 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 1 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 12 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 13 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 6 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 36 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 5 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
6. James Haskell (London Wasps, 46 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 13 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 5 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 16 caps)
20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
23. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)

Morgannwg wrote:Not the best time for Ireland to be losing some of these guys, hopefully they pull through. I'm surprised, I didn't think the game against Wales was that physical.

Maybe not for Wales but Ireland had to make 170 tackles. You don't normally have to tackle that much.

One thing in Irelands favour will be the youthfulness of the England team. They're young and inexperienced and for alot of them this is their first big pressure game. With that in mind I think we'll see the coaches talking up the opposition all this week.

Ireland will need to work on their kicking game. The kicking last weekend was terrible, constantly kicking it straight to Welsh players who kept running it back.

On thing about the second half last weekend, Ireland ALWAYS sit back when they have a good lead. I said during the game it would happen. The worring thing is they couldn't stop it happening and panicked.

Bit of history to cheer Ireland fans up, since the noisy neighbours next door are getting uppity already about themselves coming over and winning the Grand Slam an' all in week two - be'dad.

Given it's the last game of the weekend, Lansdowne Road is going to be heaving after thousands of sweaty Irishmen and Englishmen have drunk themselves silly on Friday and Saturday night.

Some might say that of all the 6N fans, the English ones are the best - no moaning, no whinging, no shrugging, or hand-waving. They just take it on the chin and buy you a beer. And, let's face it, they've had to buy a few of those in this fixture since 2003 in the 6N. A decade of matches that have been sometimes close and fierce, and others, wild, triumphant, rampant victories.

2003 - Ten years ago, Woodward's team arrived at Lansdowne Road, and wiped the floor with Ireland hammered 42-6. Ireland were lucky to get the six from the soon to be World Champions. Wilkinson in his pomp, Greenwood, Tindall, Luger and Dallaglio put Ireland to the sword with a thumping five-try victory.

2004. Ireland arrived into Twickenham to take on the RWC champions for their first game at HQ after the world cup final. England had already put 50 points on Italy and a mere 35 on Scotland. Another Grand Slam was due to Dallaglio and Co. Ireland forgot the script, though, and walked away with the Millennium Trophy 19-13, sinking the World Champions at the first time of asking.

2005. The venue switched to Dublin and Lansdowne Road. But the scoreline stayed the same with Ireland winning again 19-13.

2006. Back over to Twickenham on St Patrick's weekend. A cracking match that England thought they had won in the final minutes. But it finished with that Shane Horgan try where he grew telescopic arms to touch down in the corner to win it 28-24.

2007 saw England arrive in Croke Park for the first time since 1921 where 82,000 bawled out God Save The Queen and Amhrain na bhFiann in equal good measure. There was only ever going to be one winner that day. The story goes that Jerry Guscott on hearing the crowd give an almighty roar for the kick-off turned to Keith Wood in the TV box and said - "Oh God, we're going to get hammered, aren't we?" They were - Ireland ran riot finishing 43-13.

2008 - The Year of the Welsh again. And a Twickenham revenge. Ronan O'Gara got introduced to the boy wonder, Danny Cipriani, who ran the game from start to finish. England walked off with their first victory in 5 years - winning handsomely 33-10.

2009 - Ireland's first Grand Slam in 60 odd years. Their toughest game in week three as 80,000 odd chewed their nails to the bone, before O'Driscoll got the hammer blow try over the line. Ireland squeaked home - 14-13.

2010 - Still in their Croke Park temporary home, Ireland kept the Millennium Trophy for another year with a 3-1 try victory - 20-16.

2011 - England's Grand Slam (nearly). Along with Scotland, Ireland have a habit of ruining English Grand Slam attempts. Their last time in 2001. Ireland were already out of the running, England had four victories under the belt. A victory would give them their first Grand Slam since 2003. Paul O'Connell spent the week haranguing his troops, daring them to give in or give up. When Saturday came around, England didn't know what hit them as they walked out onto the new Lansdowne Road stadium. Their first scrum, England went backwards. And then downhill after that with Sexton running the show as superbly as Cipriani had done, four years previously. It finished 24-8.

2012 - England's forwards' revenge. Ireland are known for their lack of depth, no more so in the the propping department. As soon as Mike Ross left the field, there was only ever going to be one result. England's pack shunted the Irish around Twickenham like some latter-day human Massey Ferguson tractor, with the Irish studs ploughing furrows in the field. Scrum humiliation, a penalty try and the laser-accurate boot of Owen Farrell wowed the crowd as the England team left the field, 30-9, taking the Millennium Trophy with them.

2013. Who knows? But it's going to be a cracker.

Ireland awaits. England expects.

Pot Hale wrote:Can see England winning this one. They always raise their game against Ireland, though not always to best effect. But it's nearly always a bloody battle.

England probably have the edge in a number of areas. O'Driscoll notwithstanding, the midfield is going to be a problem. And I'm secretly thinking of putting a fiver on Mike Ross exiting the game prematurely. At which point, goodnight Irene.

Always raise their game for Ireland? What is that based on? Or is it a vailed insult due to us only beating you twice(?) in 10 years?

Ireland are favourites for this game as they usually are. They will probably win, like usual. No amount of "We want to be underdogs so we'll talk you up" will change that. Most English people know we lose to the Irish. I just hoping the team doesn't know that.

Oh and Johnson retired from international rugby after the World Cup and didn't play in the 2004 6 nations (very minor point)

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If Mike Ross is not fit and ready for this our goose could be cooked.

The only area I think we are superior to England in is at the breakdown and on defence.

This is going to be one tough game. Need a full Lansdowne roar

You think you superior to England at the breakdown and defence? I wouldn't pick those two areas personally!

I would say both sides are pretty evenly matched.

I agree to be honest, I think England are probably better at the breakdown if the NZ and Scotland game are anything to go by. Ireland were terrible at the breakdown for 40 minutes v Wales and tend to give away a lot of pens.

Defense. Both teams have weaknesses out wide but defend quite well everywhere else.

Don't forget the Fiji game. England were great in that too.

England news

BBC

But Lancaster concedes Gloucester number eight Ben Morgan, who injured his ankle on Saturday, is set to miss out on the trip to Dublin.
"Ben is still in a boot," Lancaster said on Monday. "The last prognosis is that he will struggle to be available for the weekend, I'll know definitely tomorrow.
"But Manu's coming in this afternoon. He's available for Sunday. We'll have a good look at him in the next couple of days."
If Morgan is ruled out, Lancaster expects to keep Northampton flanker Tom Wood at number eight and Wasps' James Haskell at number six after the pair finished the Scotland game in those positions.
"We have not got the scan results back yet so we shall see," said Lancaster. "Ben is a tough lad so it gives us some decisions to make but James Haskell did well there when he came on.
"We'll probably stick with the combination we had. We've done a lot of work with Tom at eight and although he does not play there for his club, he'll probably stick there."

Don't know if any Irish fans on here think the same, but some of my Irish mates will always respect the England team due to events in 1973. Pullin's quote is legendary:

The 1972 Five Nations Championship was not completed when Scotland and then Wales refused to play in Ireland following threatening letters to players, purportedly from the IRA. The championship remained unresolved with Wales and Ireland unbeaten. In 1973, despite similar threats, England fulfilled their fixture and were given a standing ovation that lasted for five minutes. Ireland won 18–9 and at the after-match dinner the England captain, John Pullin famously remarked "We might not be very good but at least we turn up".

Although I woudn't totally write off Wales or France I think this match will decide the title this year as I don't see either side losing another beyond this game. England in particular will have one hand on the title should they win.

The stakes couldn't be higher here, haven't been so excited about a 6N game since Wales v Ireland in 2009.

If Ireland can meet the power of the English pack head on and get parity at the set piece then I think we will win this one....however there is the possiblity we could get steam rollered by a powerful and confident English side who are clearly on the up. Whoever starts best and gets an early lead will win this game I think.....this will be a belter!

If England win they will get a slam.

If Ireland win they will lose to France and England will win the championship.

I'll bet 6 of your finest euro that Ireland beat France.

Scotland at Murrayfield is the toughest fixture left beyond this one imo....

HammerofThunor wrote:

Oh and Johnson retired from international rugby after the World Cup and didn't play in the 2004 6 nations (very minor point)

If we are picking up minor points from a very good post. The "Slam Stoppers" try from Keith Wood was in 2001 in Lansdowne rd not 2002.

I was in Twickenham in 2002 we were hockeyed. Rogered in fact. England were denied by France that year, who themselves got a slam I think.

rodders wrote:I'll bet 6 of your finest euro that Ireland beat France.

Scotland at Murrayfield is the toughest fixture left beyond this one imo....

Jaysus they're all tough this year the way Italy are playing too.

If we are going there with a chance of the championship they could well do the business.

EnglishReign wrote:Don't know if any Irish fans on here think the same, but some of my Irish mates will always respect the England team due to events in 1973. Pullin's quote is legendary:

The 1972 Five Nations Championship was not completed when Scotland and then Wales refused to play in Ireland following threatening letters to players, purportedly from the IRA. The championship remained unresolved with Wales and Ireland unbeaten. In 1973, despite similar threats, England fulfilled their fixture and were given a standing ovation that lasted for five minutes. Ireland won 18–9 and at the after-match dinner the England captain, John Pullin famously remarked "We might not be very good but at least we turn up".

Big time. It was massive, a big gesture that meant a lot to rugby fans in Ireland.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll bet 6 of your finest euro that Ireland beat France.

Scotland at Murrayfield is the toughest fixture left beyond this one imo....

Jaysus they're all tough this year the way Italy are playing too.

If we are going there with a chance of the championship they could well do the business.

They are all tough every year Jen but I wouldn' put France on a pedestal..Italy showed them no fear or respect and they where all over the shop. No leadership, no control at halfback, poor defence....a bit more composure from Italy and they'd have won by more.

Every game is both winnable and losable this year but I don't see any teams to fear. I'm not looking past England but the winner of this weeks game has a very good run in and a great chance of the slam, so there is a huge amount at stake.

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll bet 6 of your finest euro that Ireland beat France.

Scotland at Murrayfield is the toughest fixture left beyond this one imo....

Jaysus they're all tough this year the way Italy are playing too.

If we are going there with a chance of the championship they could well do the business.

They are all tough every year Jen but I wouldn' put France on a pedestal..Italy showed them no fear or respect and they where all over the shop. No leadership, no control at halfback, poor defence....a bit more composure from Italy and they'd have won by more.

Every game is both winnable and losable this year but I don't see any teams to fear. I'm not looking past England but the winner of this weeks game has a very good run in and a great chance of the slam, so there is a huge amount at stake.

Good way to look at it. I think Ireland have given France far too much respect. Equally England seem to find it difficult vs Ireland and France seem to struggle vs England.

Ireland hold the big advantage because you have that Wales away game win under your belt. Let's be honest England were always expected to beat Scotland at home.

Ireland have England and France at home - you hold the edge.

2003 - Ten years ago, Woodward's team arrived at Lansdowne Road, and wiped the floor with Ireland hammered 42-6. Ireland were lucky to get the six from the soon to be World Champions. Wilkinson in his pomp, Greenwood, Tindall, Luger and Dallaglio put Ireland to the sword with a thumping five-try victory.

I think you might want to revisit you copy of that match.

Yes the scoreline looks like a massacre, but if you watch the game I think you’ll find it was a very even contest until the last period.

I watch this game a lot.

After every 6N disappointment I go and dig out my ‘Grandslam Heroes’ CD and console myself that we USED to have a good team

beshocked wrote:
Ireland hold the big advantage because you have that Wales away game win under your belt. Let's be honest England were always expected to beat Scotland at home.

Ireland have England and France at home - you hold the edge.

Yes I agree with that. We have to accept the expectation that comes with winning that crucial away game against Wales. I'm not saying we are the best side or we will win the slam but we are now in the driving seat in this year championship given the fixtures.

England are table toppers but I think beating Wales in Cardiff was the more significant victory than Scotland at Twickenham.

This game on Saturday is our toughest fixture and the pivotal game I think. Thats not to dismiss the other games but we'll have crossed the two biggest hurdles should we win in my opinion.

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Ireland hold the big advantage because you have that Wales away game win under your belt. Let's be honest England were always expected to beat Scotland at home.

Ireland have England and France at home - you hold the edge.

Yes I agree with that. We have to accept the expectation that comes with winning that crucial away game against Wales. I'm not saying we are the best side or we will win the slam but we are now in the driving seat in this year championship given the fixtures.

England are table toppers but I think beating Wales in Cardiff was the more significant victory than Scotland at Twickenham.

This game on Saturday is our toughest fixture and the pivotal game I think. Thats not to dismiss the other games but we'll have crossed the two biggest hurdles should we win in my opinion.

I agree. I think beating Wales away is more significant. You also did what you needed to do in the 1st 40 minutes which is a bit worrying. Sure Wales did fight back but from 30-3 down they had little to lose.

England have shown good form but beating an in form Ireland at the Aviva is a significantly trickier prospect than Scotland at home.

Plus there are plenty of selection issues that need addressing - who starts in the centre, who plays on the left wing and FB, who replaces Morgan, should Hartley come back in etc.

It's a more settled England side than last season certainly but that game vs Ireland was settled by the scrum dominance. Something I cannot see happening this time round.

Yeah the battle up front will be key....I doubt it could be as one sided as last year (touch wood) but I am worried about the power England have....

England for me are marginal favourites on Sunday but should we win then we would and should be favourites for the championship....

Although of secondary importance compared to the championship this one will have a big impact on Lions selection too.... this is a massive game!

Hope burns comes in for this one

Has anyone else seen the bookies' odds?
The punters clearly can't call it.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/six-nations/ireland-v-england/winner

"Oh right NZ had a howler. Mccaw and co suddenly became absolutely rubbish did they? I hate all this downgrading of the England win. You would think that NZ put out a U16 side from some of the comments floating around!"

It was a great win by England but you do know that NZ were decimated by the Winter Vomiting Bug the week leading up to the England match don't you?

Didn't you consider it a bit odd that England lost to the 2nd and 3rd placed teams in the 4N but then hammered the up to then unbeaten (4N and World) champions by 17 points with many of their best players (eg McCaw, Conrad Smith) having curiously under whelming performances??

MunsterMac wrote:

"Oh right NZ had a howler. Mccaw and co suddenly became absolutely rubbish did they? I hate all this downgrading of the England win. You would think that NZ put out a U16 side from some of the comments floating around!"

It was a great win by England but you do know that NZ were decimated by the Winter Vomiting Bug the week leading up to the England match don't you?

Didn't you consider it a bit odd that England lost to the 2nd and 3rd placed teams in the 4N but then hammered the up to then unbeaten (4N and World) champions by 17 points with many of their best players (eg McCaw, Conrad Smith) having curiously under whelming performances??

Wow are you suggesting there was match fixing involved?...... maybe Prince Harry pulled rank on Sir Ritchie?....

Had to have been something, after all MT isnt fit to lace BOD's boots therefore could only have ripped up NZ for that spell in the 2nd half because they were paid off or too ill to respond.

MunsterMac wrote:

"Oh right NZ had a howler. Mccaw and co suddenly became absolutely rubbish did they? I hate all this downgrading of the England win. You would think that NZ put out a U16 side from some of the comments floating around!"

It was a great win by England but you do know that NZ were decimated by the Winter Vomiting Bug the week leading up to the England match don't you?

Didn't you consider it a bit odd that England lost to the 2nd and 3rd placed teams in the 4N but then hammered the up to then unbeaten (4N and World) champions by 17 points with many of their best players (eg McCaw, Conrad Smith) having curiously under whelming performances??

NZ were beaten fair & square in that one. The players said they were recovered from the bug. Sure it was end of season, so some fatigue maybe - but not 17 points worth.

Who do England posters think is England's best or most valuable player?

Personally I think England's prize asset is Dan Cole. I say this because for me he is the best in the 6 nations in his position and a bloody good scrummager. There isnt any other England player IMO that stands out as the best player in the NH as much as him, plus there are some very good tight head props in the NH.

Youngs and Care are probably the best SHs in B&I but I think there is a real dearth of good SHs around and Parra probably leads the way in the North.

Tuilagi is probably England's most exciting player and maybe second most prized asset but he is probably only marginally ahead of Drico now if not on a par.

Farrell is also very valuable to the England team as his kicking is immaculate. I do feel that the rest of him game is still developing a little though.

Chris Robshaw is also proving an invaluable and calming presence as captain.

Dan Cole or Chris Robshaw are the 2 most critical England players.

I have never noticed it before but Robshaw gets through an insane ammount of dirty work in a game. His workrate is phenomenal and he made some really good hits against Scotland.

Dan Cole is a tight head.... say no more! A god amongst insects.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Dan Cole or Chris Robshaw are the 2 most critical England players.

I have never noticed it before but Robshaw gets through an insane ammount of dirty work in a game. His workrate is phenomenal and he made some really good hits against Scotland.

Dan Cole is a tight head.... say no more! A god amongst insects.

Have to agree re Robshaw. He seems to be improving at a very steady rate.

Problem with comparing players is that even when they fill the same position what they bring can be so different.

Morgan (had he been playing) vs Heaslip is a great example, (brutal carrying vs 'all the dirty work)

and so is MT vs BOD (Pace carrying and aggression on one side, vs leadership, defense and subtlety on the other)

As well as these key players, it's good to see who we have coming off the bench these days: Hartley, Lawes, Haskell, Care, Flood etc.

lostinwales wrote:Problem with comparing players is that even when they fill the same position what they bring can be so different.

Morgan (had he been playing) vs Heaslip is a great example, (brutal carrying vs 'all the dirty work)

and so is MT vs BOD (Pace carrying and aggression on one side, vs leadership, defense and subtlety on the other)

One of my pet peeves on rugby forums is when you ask who a teams best player or the best player in the world is for example you are guarenteed to get at least 10 posters who respond by saying its impossible to compare a centre with a prop for example. You cannot compare Richie McCaw with Brian O'Driscoll because they play in different positions etc etc.

For that reason I phrased it as the most valuable to England. Also I do think it is possible to argue who the best player in the world is by analysing their spectrum of merits and the difference they make to their team. Unfortunatly I believe the biggest challenge to this is not comparing players in different positions or even players in the same positions with different qualities. No, for me the biggest challenge is comparing a great player who plays for a sh1t team with a great player who plays for a great team.

CONCERN OVER HARTLEY 'NIBBLING' MEAT in Ireland:
"That is why the Republic of Ireland, the Department of Agriculture, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the minister, the Garda are involved," he said. "We will be working very closely with those authorities to try and establish the facts of this case and to determine whether or not this is accidental, in terms of someone has packaged and mislabelled, or whether or not there is deliberate fraudulent activity."He added: "At this point in time we have no indication of food safety risk, but this is an issue about food safety confidence."

NZ were beaten fair & square in that one. The players said they were recovered from the bug.

Would you expect them to say anything else?

My daughter had the WVB the week before Xmas and it took her 2 weeks to even begin to recover.

It was a genuinely superb performance from England but there's no way the WVB wasn't a factor.

I have noticed that with the exceptions of Healey and Heaslip, all of the Irish players have skinny little chicken legs.

I think we should exploit this.

France are not dead and gone.

France beat Wales in Paris
France beat England in Twickenham
France beat Ireland in Dublin
France beat Scotland in Paris

That gives them 4 wins and a narrow defeat.

England could easily lose against either/both Ireland and Wales.
Ireland could easily lose against France, England and Scotland.

France are still in contention - even more so if Ireland win this weekend.

red_stag wrote:France are not dead and gone.

France beat Wales in Paris
France beat England in Twickenham
France beat Ireland in Dublin
France beat Scotland in Paris

That gives them 4 wins and a narrow defeat.

England could easily lose against either/both Ireland and Wales.
Ireland could easily lose against France, England and Scotland.

France are still in contention - even more so if Ireland win this weekend.

Only because they went on holiday last weekend Staggy (that was supposedly the point of the OP before it immediately morphed into the standard pre-match discussion. That's why it was written in franglais.
DNA results demonstrate that Michalak was actually Looby-Loo out of Andy Pandy. Definitive samples were compared with rag doll samples taken out of Teddy's box.

France have chances against England and Ireland but I fear for Wales in Paris - they could be in for an almighty blending.

MunsterMac wrote:

NZ were beaten fair & square in that one. The players said they were recovered from the bug.

Would you expect them to say anything else?

My daughter had the WVB the week before Xmas and it took her 2 weeks to even begin to recover.

It was a genuinely superb performance from England but there's no way the WVB wasn't a factor.

Took me a week to get over it cause my stomach was ruined for a while after. You never know though.

red_stag wrote:France are not dead and gone.

France beat Wales in Paris
France beat England in Twickenham
France beat Ireland in Dublin
France beat Scotland in Paris

That gives them 4 wins and a narrow defeat.

England could easily lose against either/both Ireland and Wales.
Ireland could easily lose against France, England and Scotland.

France are still in contention - even more so if Ireland win this weekend.

France wont win in Twickenham or Dublin, forget it. Give up the goose stag.

It was one game, the chances that England would do the same to NZ on a regular basis, right now, are small. The one thing that drives me nuts though is when quite respected commentators come out with the 'NZ were out on their feet at the end of the match' line.

They werent. They were all over England at that point and unlucky not to score more points. The game was won at that point so it didnt matter.

The two biggest things to take from that match were
1) NZ nilled in the first half. That in itself is as rare as hens teeth and ask any England fan and we would have been happy with that even if we had lost
2) The response to when NZ got the 2 tries early in the 2nd half. That was just huge. The lack of panic and the way they raised their game was just fantastic - and that is where the game was won. That response gives me the biggest confidence moving forwards and must have been a massive education to the players involved.

England will lose - every team does. They are also a distance from the finished article - but they are looking good and still improving all the time. Part of that is the slow transformation from good players to great ones.

red_stag wrote:France are not dead and gone.

France beat Wales in Paris
France beat England in Twickenham
France beat Ireland in Dublin
France beat Scotland in Paris

That gives them 4 wins and a narrow defeat.

England could easily lose against either/both Ireland and Wales.
Ireland could easily lose against France, England and Scotland.

France are still in contention - even more so if Ireland win this weekend.

You at the crystal ball again Stag? Or maybe the crystal meth....

EnglishReign wrote:Don't know if any Irish fans on here think the same, but some of my Irish mates will always respect the England team due to events in 1973. Pullin's quote is legendary:

The 1972 Five Nations Championship was not completed when Scotland and then Wales refused to play in Ireland following threatening letters to players, purportedly from the IRA. The championship remained unresolved with Wales and Ireland unbeaten. In 1973, despite similar threats, England fulfilled their fixture and were given a standing ovation that lasted for five minutes. Ireland won 18–9 and at the after-match dinner the England captain, John Pullin famously remarked "We might not be very good but at least we turn up".

+100. Well remembered. Never forgotten.

Triangulation wrote:I have noticed that with the exceptions of Healey and Heaslip, all of the Irish players have skinny little chicken legs.

I think we should exploit this.

Is there any reason as to why you've been examining the girth all of the Irish players' legs?

EnglishReign wrote:Don't know if any Irish fans on here think the same, but some of my Irish mates will always respect the England team due to events in 1973. Pullin's quote is legendary:

The 1972 Five Nations Championship was not completed when Scotland and then Wales refused to play in Ireland following threatening letters to players, purportedly from the IRA. The championship remained unresolved with Wales and Ireland unbeaten. In 1973, despite similar threats, England fulfilled their fixture and were given a standing ovation that lasted for five minutes. Ireland won 18–9 and at the after-match dinner the England captain, John Pullin famously remarked "We might not be very good but at least we turn up".

Thank you fellow Glaws man: EnglishReign

Surely the famous 1973 quote from John Pullin is the perfect antidote to the 2013 Telfer proposition.

Pot Hale wrote:

Triangulation wrote:I have noticed that with the exceptions of Healey and Heaslip, all of the Irish players have skinny little chicken legs.

I think we should exploit this.

Is there any reason as to why you've been examining the girth all of the Irish players' legs?

Bowling ball Manu is 'weighing' them up for signs of relative 'strength'.

MunsterMac wrote:

NZ were beaten fair & square in that one. The players said they were recovered from the bug.

Would you expect them to say anything else?

My daughter had the WVB the week before Xmas and it took her 2 weeks to even begin to recover.

It was a genuinely superb performance from England but there's no way the WVB wasn't a factor.

I had it too (docs confirmed), took me 2 days to recover. People are different in there recovery times, just because your daughter took 2 weeks to recovery doesn't mean that's the norm.

Have you seen there coach? He'll always speak his mind regardless. If the virus affected the team, he would of said.

MunsterMac wrote:

NZ were beaten fair & square in that one. The players said they were recovered from the bug.

Would you expect them to say anything else?

My daughter had the WVB the week before Xmas and it took her 2 weeks to even begin to recover.

It was a genuinely superb performance from England but there's no way the WVB wasn't a factor.

The recovery time for Norovirus depends on the severity of the illness and the response to it from the patient. It can be a couple of days or a couple of weeks, though you'd expect to clear the virus in days- we are advised about 5 days at med school if we get it though really it's 3 days after the cessation of symptoms. If the ABs say they had recovered, they will have recovered, though they wouldn't be 100% by any stretch of the imagination. However, there's no way they would have slept well, eaten properly or trained during that week

Though on second thoughts I've rowed with Norovirus when I've had to and I know friends who have raced with it so it can be done.
Anyway, if SA can claim a RWC in which the ABs were all sick on the actual day of the final, I'm happy to claim that win

The virus obviously had an effect. They missed a couple of days preparation if nothing else. A a few of the players did not look at their best at all. But they're fit guys and would have recovered fast. If they were on the field they were fit enough to play. And and a sick New Zealand with the flu would probably beat us. England were brilliant to be fair. That performance scares me.

Its too early to judge England yet. They look like they've the makings of a good team coming together. The win over NZ was very good but they lost to a below par injury hit Australia. Who knows.

I was impressed by Twelvetrees. He looks a better player than Barrett. Tuilagi is the new kid on the block and has burst on the scene but it remains to be seen if he has more than one trick in his arsenal. If not he'll get found out quickly.

Ireland are a step up from Scotland and its an away game for this young England team. Can they handle the pressure? Pressure does funny things to players.

Ireland are a bit like France, you never know what to expect. The Irish attack has been very good since the Fiji game in the autumn though and they're looking more dangerous and now look like the best of what the provinces have to offer instead of the predictable shambles of the last few years.

Besides the scrums, one other thing that worries me about Ireland is their kicking game. It was brutal against Wales.

It should be a good game although we could see both teams being overly cautious. Whoever wins is favourites for a grand slam but theres a long way to go still. If Ireland lose it'll mean Kidneys days are numbered.

gregortree wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Don't know if any Irish fans on here think the same, but some of my Irish mates will always respect the England team due to events in 1973. Pullin's quote is legendary:

The 1972 Five Nations Championship was not completed when Scotland and then Wales refused to play in Ireland following threatening letters to players, purportedly from the IRA. The championship remained unresolved with Wales and Ireland unbeaten. In 1973, despite similar threats, England fulfilled their fixture and were given a standing ovation that lasted for five minutes. Ireland won 18–9 and at the after-match dinner the England captain, John Pullin famously remarked "We might not be very good but at least we turn up".

Thank you fellow Glaws man: EnglishReign

Surely the famous 1973 quote from John Pullin is the perfect antidote to the 2013 Telfer proposition.

Absolutely. I actually think that quote is very English in its self-deprecation and honesty.

I've just looked at the 2009 lineup v Ireland...how on earth were we on for a slam? The rest of you should be ashamed. It's no wonder we got smashed, with Hape and Banahan at centre. We've actually got decent players this time.