Worst 15 of the six nations so far

First topic message reminder :

1. Gethin Jenkins - rusty performance from Melon
2. Matthew Rhys - Good player, bad game
3. Mike Ross - quiet game for Ross
4. Richie Grey - Come on Richie looks like youre gonna miss the plane.
5. Jim Hamilton - God how Scotland could do with Hines.
6. Dave Denton - Didn't start but came on early. Once highly rated but no way he is a Lion on that performance. Thought 8s could pass.
7. Sam Warburton - what happened to this guy.
8. Johnnie Beattie - Bad day at the office
9. Mike Phillips - wasn't terrible but well below par for a guy who usually relishes playing v Ieland
10. Freddy Michelak - God he was awful. Jackson wasn't far off.
11. Mike Brown - responsible for one Scotland try, Rob Kearney was very quiet but didn't make any mistakes so Brown takes it.
12. Jamie Roberts - offered very little
13. Jonathan Davies - Very good player but his worst game in a while
14. Wesley Fofana - His worst game for a while. Subbed off after 52 minutes.
15. Alex Goode - leaky defense v Scotland. Is he fit?

I can't believe this article. A bit of fun or not; whether any individual was better or worse than their opposite numbers, they have all achieved the honour of playing international rugby.

No player sets out to have a bad game.

JD2 was rats too.

Apparently the touch judge was calling for the pass hence his throwing the ball out twice...

Taffineastbourne wrote:I can only hope that France keep the same half back combo against Wales.Both were poor in the extreme.

They would certainly be foolish to. Parra definitely has to start. Not sure about the form of Trin Duc to comment.

If you watch the game, you will see that the 2 JD2 passes, would have actually gone straight to Cuthbert, If he was in position. He was actually running flat alongside the attack line on both occasions for some reason!

What a poor article!!!

Jenkins - Isn't fit, blame Howley not Jenkins.
Rees - I agree past it.
Ross - Won penalties at the scrum, and defended well.
Gray - Is a lone quality player in a poor pack
Hamilton - Does what he does, he was ok.
Warburton - Shouldve been dropped a year ago
Denton - Was in a beaten pack.
Beattie - Standout scot and did himself a great service.
Phillips - Was key to stemming the welsh flow.
Michalak - Was behind a beaten pack.
Brown - Isnt a winger.
Roberts - Is being played wrong.
Davies - made 3 mistakes, and 2 could be attributed to Cuthbert!!!
Fofana - Never got a chance.
Goode - Isn't the most reliable FB, but he was left exposed!

You can sub half of that team for much worse players IMHO!!!

Comfort wrote:

Riskysports wrote:For this team the Captain has to be Phillips

One of the worst performances I have ever seen - if anyone says he should go on the lions, they should check themselves into a padded room

Risky, can you clarify why you thought he was so bad?

Not having a go, I just disagree.

Slow to get the ball out, ran sideways, looked to try to be a flanker, spent more time arguing with the ref than looking to take advantage of opporunties (this was very annoying), generally was dis-jointed and stopped a lot of good go farward ball with his poor play

Risky

I couldn't disagree more! I am a tall (6'5) scrum half (at times) and I get stick for being slow too, but if you actually consider what Phillips is having to do at every ruck you get more of a sense of why the ball is slow.

Phillips is having to move bodies, fight hands, and wrestle the ball away from the rucks, he offers a carrying threat (that Williams never) he offers decent service (that williams never) he offers a defencive option, and especially in that first half he was exposed by poor fringe defence (See Healy's try)

Every issue anyone mentions that Phillips has was comppounded when Williams came on (Stupidly early IMHO and highlight what a tool Howley is buying into the media crip)

I have slated Phillips plenty over the last few years but Saturday he was very good and the only player confident enough to take control, when your 9 is screaming at his captain constant order we have problems!!

Michalak wasnt behind a beaten pack, he just made poor choices and his kicking was dire from the start. he was the worst (or less good if you prefer) FH of last weekend maybe on par with the Scottish one who seemed pretty anonymous but at least was behind a beaten pack. Farrell and Orquera were both very good (in a different style), while Sexton and Biggar went ok.
Dont agree that Parra brought more than Machenaud or deserves to start: the latter was one of the few players to try things but once again individuals actions of bravery dont cut it at this level if you dont have team support and that's what france was mainly lacking (support , cohesion etc) as often. they need to bring out that extra 5% of agression that is the difference between poor (tonga) and decent (rwc final, australia game). France as opposed to England for example do not have a natural composure so they need to dominate to win games.

Well the French pack were being punched wholes in for fun, the set piece was hardly a see saw, but it never is. My point was that his pack never gave him a solid or consistant platform, but I agree he wasn't much good with the ball he did get, but like Biggar when you see less ball you try too hard sometimes!

my 'worst' team would look more like...

Jenkins
Rees
Mas
Hamilton
Pape
Shinglar
Warburton
Healsip/Morgan
Machenaud
Jackson
Brown
Roberts (arguable Darcy)
Mermoz
Cuthbert/Fofana (both awfull)
Goode/Huget

Unsurprisingly plenty of Welsh/French players.

thebluesmancometh - but as a scrum half he has to be quick - that is his job, otherwise he is a flanker pretending to be a scrum half

Everyone in the room could not stop commenting on how bad he was at the weekend - and they normally keep quiet

But I am happy to agree to disagree though :-)

Riskysports I agree.

On the other hand I do think it's quite harsh to put Phillips in the worst 15 side because he's not actually a scrum half.

thebluesmancometh Morgan certainly doesn't deserve to be there.

Denton should get a honourary mention for his emulating of Mauro Bergamasco with only particularly interesting pass.

beshocked wrote:Riskysports I agree.

On the other hand I do think it's quite harsh to put Phillips in the worst 15 side because he's not actually a scrum half.

thebluesmancometh Morgan certainly doesn't deserve to be there.

Denton should get a honourary mention for his emulating of Mauro Bergamasco with only particularly interesting pass.

God, that was atrocious.

Denton's inability to pass in mentioned in the OP's (my) article.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Risky

I couldn't disagree more! I am a tall (6'5) scrum half (at times) and I get stick for being slow too, but if you actually consider what Phillips is having to do at every ruck you get more of a sense of why the ball is slow.

Phillips is having to move bodies, fight hands, and wrestle the ball away from the rucks, he offers a carrying threat (that Williams never) he offers decent service (that williams never) he offers a defencive option, and especially in that first half he was exposed by poor fringe defence (See Healy's try)

Every issue anyone mentions that Phillips has was comppounded when Williams came on (Stupidly early IMHO and highlight what a tool Howley is buying into the media crip)

I have slated Phillips plenty over the last few years but Saturday he was very good and the only player confident enough to take control, when your 9 is screaming at his captain constant order we have problems!!

Rubbish! There were times the ball was sat there waiting for him at the bottom of a ruck and pops his head up looking what to do next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tarIbKaL5GU

Watch the Mauro Bergamasco scrum half master class for a truly great 6 nations performance!

beshocked wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tarIbKaL5GU

Watch the Mauro Bergamasco scrum half master class for a truly great 6 nations performance!

That was bad. Mind you BODs box kick v Wales was fairly bad. It was like Tomas O'Leary had somehow entered BODs body and got on the pitch.

All 15 Wales players in the first half V Ireland!

GunsGerms wrote:Denton's inability to pass in mentioned in the OP's (my) article.

Forget his pass. It was every other facet of his game that let us down. He spent most of his time standing in the backline waiting for his chance to impress Gatland with his "awesome carrying skills" that he forgot to be a blindside flanker.

We needed him to be clearing the ruck out and securing our ball against Rampaging English loose forwards but he didn't bother.

Kelly Brown and Johnnie Beattie would have a right to be be a bit miffed at him for his lack of contributions in the tight on Saturday.

Agree on Phillips for captain, dreadful performance from a poor SH

Byrne must be 15

Halfpenny 14

GunsGerms wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Can't believe Cuthbert managed to avoid this list! He was key for two of Irelands tries!!

He was on my first draft but I took him off because he scored a good try.

That makes no sense

Amazing what seems like a lack of interest in what Phillips actually has to contend with.

In reality though ball speed from the ruck has little or nothing to do with the scrummy!!!

Someone mentioned the ball sitting there for a few seconds waiting for Phillips to use it, but when Phillips is screaming at his forwards to get into positions they are clearly meant to be in what can he do!!

It's so easy to say that Phillips should be shoveling the ball to any forward or the 10 in a second flat ala Care, but thats not the game Wales are trying to play, not what Phillips has been told to do, and certainly isn't a deciding factor in what makes a good scrum half performance!

Biggar had been charged down early, was struggling with the Irish blitz, so as a smart SH should Phillips varied his pass times, used his pods more and used himself as a threat more!

A solid scrum half performance keeps a blitz defence honest (ie he varies the timings of his pass) he keeps the fringe defence honest (he makes them aware of his threat) and he controls the game. The gameplan of blind blind open is coming through Philips clearly as thats where the forwards are coming from, he cannot rush his pass and risk Ireland being too slow to get to the blind and accidentally ending up in front of the 10 in numbers. He has to be patient at times, and he has to know when to go to top gear.

Phillips made 2 mistakes, one getting the ball knocked out of his hands by BOD ( how that was given as a knock on I don't know) and his box kick kept us under pressure. Everything else he did was out of necesaty or because of over coaching and a rigid gameplan!

yappysnap wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Can't believe Cuthbert managed to avoid this list! He was key for two of Irelands tries!!

He was on my first draft but I took him off because he scored a good try.

That makes no sense

Fofana nor Brown scored and both were worse than Cuthbert. At least Cuthbert scored.

But scoring 1 and being directly responsible for 2 doesn't really help the team does it.

I had to think seriously about wether to add him or not, I didn't becuase he at least was a bit of a threat.

Phillips is actually getting slower and worse (I didn't think that was possible). It's no wonder he's been getting booed at Bayonne.

In a Worst XV he should be captain.

Wales don't need an "extra Flanker" they need a sharp, skillful and intelligent Scrum half.

Look at Gareth Edwards. Then at Mike Phillips.

I know what you're saying, but Gareth's pass, whilst more accurate, is slower now. I don't think he could manage 80 minutes due to the 'business lunches' anymore either

Glas a du wrote:I know what you're saying, but Gareth's pass, whilst more accurate, is slower now. I don't think he could manage 80 minutes due to the 'business lunches' anymore either

You know what I mean Glas, Gareth was the perfect scrum half, and in my mind one of the best (if not the best) to ever play that position.

Parra, Genia, Youngs, Laidlaw I think are all far better Scrum Halves than Phillips.

Phillips is a big strong lad and he is physically fit, no doubt he is what a pro rugby player looks like. However he just doesn't have the basic skill set required by a Scrum Half. He was Excellent for the Lions though, but that was the last time I have seen him play well.

I would rather have Peter Stringer than Phillips!

The bigger the game the bigger his ego the better he plays. He's a better Lion than a Wales player, just like Gibbs was for most of the time.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Wales don't need an "extra Flanker" they need a sharp, skillful and intelligent Scrum half.

Look at Gareth Edwards. Then at Mike Phillips.

I think Phillips held us together in the first half, and things improved with him on the pitch in the second. Why? Because the forwards provided a platform at the ruck. How anyone can ignore that I dont know. Phillips wasnt the reason we were 20 oddd points dow nby halftime. Even for the Healy try theres no fringe defence and he was left alone on the try line against a notoriously dynamic loosehead prop picking and driving. No, im sorry, but Phillips wasnt terrible, the forwards were in the first half. That said, he wasnt anywhere near his best, but quite frankly, without that "extra flanker" we could have been even further behind by half time.

That aside, looking at the welsh scrum half options, can I ask those who have a different view to me..... who would you go for?

Considering of course, the players either side of him, a very young lightweight back row and an inexperienced 10 who started his first 6nations game ever last week.

ps. dont get me wrong, I'd take Gareth back in a flash.

Comfort

Your bang on, whilst not a talented 9 he did well saturday.

For anyone who is trashing Phillips performance please explain what Genia (IMHO best 9 in the world) couldve done differently?

The rucks needed a wrestle to get the ball out (which Williams had to do also)!

The gameplan dictates a blind blind open pod system before going wide.

There was no decent ball for Phillips to use in the first half.

Biggars first 6N cap, and getting charged down early on.

What could Genia have done better than Phillips did? Would he have stoppped Healy from 3 yards out with no fringe defence? Would he have turned over ball himself? Would ha have been as abbrassive in defence? Would he have created something from nothing in the first half?

The only thing Genia couldve done different was not get subbed off early into the 2nd half just as the welsh forwards got into the game, it's almost like as soon as Phillips got a platform Howley wanted Williams on the pitch to show what he can do, it's almost like Williams has been decided as top dog in Wales without having to prove anything!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Comfort

Your bang on, whilst not a talented 9 he did well saturday.

For anyone who is trashing Phillips performance please explain what Genia (IMHO best 9 in the world) couldve done differently?

The rucks needed a wrestle to get the ball out (which Williams had to do also)!

The gameplan dictates a blind blind open pod system before going wide.

There was no decent ball for Phillips to use in the first half.

Biggars first 6N cap, and getting charged down early on.

What could Genia have done better than Phillips did? Would he have stoppped Healy from 3 yards out with no fringe defence? Would he have turned over ball himself? Would ha have been as abbrassive in defence? Would he have created something from nothing in the first half?

The only thing Genia couldve done different was not get subbed off early into the 2nd half just as the welsh forwards got into the game, it's almost like as soon as Phillips got a platform Howley wanted Williams on the pitch to show what he can do, it's almost like Williams has been decided as top dog in Wales without having to prove anything!

Philips arguably played better v Ireland than Genia did the last time Ireland played Australia. Anyone remember Genia getting smashed and driven back 10 meters by Ferris?

OK guns pick any SH on the planet and tell me how they couldve improved on Phillips last saturday!!!

Everyone keeps regurgatating the words 'speed' 'quick ball' 'slow' etc etc, but the 9 has very little to do with the speed the ball is moved at, the big factors are the gameplan and the platform, then the 9 can dictate the pace of it!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:OK guns pick any SH on the planet and tell me how they couldve improved on Phillips last saturday!!!

Everyone keeps regurgatating the words 'speed' 'quick ball' 'slow' etc etc, but the 9 has very little to do with the speed the ball is moved at, the big factors are the gameplan and the platform, then the 9 can dictate the pace of it!!

I think you are preaching to the wrong crowd. I am a Philips fan. Think he is very good. Just think compared to every other time he has played Ireland he was very quiet. Very hard when you are going backwards though of course.

I kinda agree with some people who say that Philips pass is a little laboured though. Just like Murray Philips tends to take a step then pass. I like a scrum half that can whip the ball out of the bottom of the ruck without delay. Some SHs that do/did this are, Stringer, Peel, Reddan etc.

Phillips is very good at what he does, and his passing is not as poor as is often made out on here.

You're also entirely right that scrum halfs have very little to do with dictating how fast the ball comes out of a ruck. Look at the criticism that both Youngs and Care have had for England in the past and then at how they played against Scotland - quick ball all game, because the ball carriers were getting over the gain line and the first guys hitting the ruck were going past the ball and clearing out, so the ball was there as soon as the scrum half was. It then just falls to the SH to keep the momentum going by picking the right option for the next carry.

Johnnie Beattie? he had a good game, made several strong runs and plenty of tackles.

Beattie was exactly as expected... Excellent!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Beattie was exactly as expected... Excellent!

Exactly - this germs guy is an idiot !

Phillips still looking good for that captains jersey......so bad

I don't know about 15, there's 30 on the field right now.

Haha.....

Wales look so much better with a scrum half at 9

Well that was a terrible terrible game.

All Wales and France in this side now

Terrible

Your all full of it, rewatch how vital Phillips was in that first half in defence, and it's his break that broke the 6-6 deadlock!!!

Having an agenda doesn't make you guys right, this game was a very nervy game, nobody slated the NZ RWC winning team because of the final, and IMHO this was better than the Joubert NZ love fest!!!

Please look at the situation before gobbing off.

But he is scrum half not a flanker

Watch him run into contact time and time again, and make the wrong decisions time and time again etc etc

There you go bluesman...only takes the 15 on the field ay? (well, plus a few more) but thats what won it- the whole team approach not letting anything pass...
Well done Wales...something to work with now.
Only the one try but a spectacular one at that. The placement of the kick and work of North to not only be in the right place but take and manage the ball over the line was great.

Congrats

No agenda, I thought LW was pretty good when he came on and gave some good service to the backline resulting in a try.

Phillips was stinking, really really bad. His service is terrible.

Mike Phillips would make a great centre. He is not a scrum half though

Pooly

That is why your opinion lacks knowledge with regards to Philips, you claim Phillips service is poor and Williams better resulting in the try but the pass was taken by Biggar off his bootlaces, and were scored despite the poor service (go on I dare you to rewatch it)

I am not a Phillips fan in general, but any criticism over the last 2 games is unwarranted, and is regurgatated garbage from 2 seasons ago!!