Owen Farrel, Is It Just Me...

...or is he not as good as everyone seems to think.

We all know he has a good mindset and his defence is strong. Not to take anything away from him he does nail his kicks when they count and if a forward runs at him he'll nail the guy.

BUT

He is very slow when attacking the line and offers little running threat, his passing is still slow and he doesn't have much variety to it ( yes Parlings try was good but look at where the ball was travelling, if Parling hadn't run from nowhere to grab it he'd have thrown it straight to the deck).

Sorry to be a doubter but I fail to see how he's close to the Lions and to be honest I still feel he needs to show more for England.

Its all true BUT somehow we keep winning with him there. The how or why is another matter.

There were signs of improvement vs Scotland - enough to reinforce his position as England no.1

It's you. The kid is amazing.

He's developed a better attacking game in the last two matches he's played. He definitely deserves a few more chances to show what he can do.

I agree that he used to just nail his kicks, but I firmly believe he's steadily improving.

The beauty of the Parling try was that Farrell put a 30m pass perfectly in front of him for him to run on to...what's the point in passing to someone stationary? His passing game is extremely accurate. As to its pace do you mean he holds on to the ball too long before passing or his pass lacks zip? I would disagree on both points.

dgttaylor wrote:The beauty of the Parling try was that Farrell put a 30m pass perfectly in front of him for him to run on to...what's the point in passing to someone stationary? His passing game is extremely accurate. As to its pace do you mean he holds on to the ball too long before passing or his pass lacks zip? I would disagree on both points.

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That pass was phenomenal. That's VISION.

It's message board wisdom again - the idea that no player has ever improved following his debut.

Yes, Farrell has a good temperament and is an outstanding place kicker, and no he's not likely to rip a defence apart as a ball carrier (but then, how many modern day 10s would do - Carter then ? ), but his distribution skills have shapened up and he's getting quite proficient at putting support players through holes.

Of course, the fact that England have been producing quick ball consistently has helped make both Youngs and Farrell look better players.

Oh, and none of the above excuses his facial contortions when kicking for goal. The idiosyncratic (some would argue idiotic) posturing is obviously something England kickers work on - Farrell's one-eyed squint is just a follow-up to the Wilkinson 'sitting on a shooting stick'crouch.

If the ball goes over I couldn't give a monkey's what he does before he kicks.

By default Im Farrell sceptic, however Ive been increasingly won over by his ability to do the basics of his job very well which should always be the primary factor a player is judged on. Id disagree with you about his passing, perhaps no Hodgson but hes been much better recently (especially with the deceiving "flat" ones)
Hes answered the challenge of Catt to show he can play flatter to the line. He kicks and passes well, and is a more than adequate tackler. More than anything he has a brain and a big game head ( ie doesnt seem to be affected by the game situation or size of the challenge, just keeps on doing what he does). It is very reminiscent of golden era Wilko

He does lack any kind of running game. But England currently seem fixated on a Brian Ashton style backs set up anyway, the half backs are not encouraged to run even if they could. It was the same when Flood played who is very strong taking the ball forward, both care and Youngs rarely take the line on, except in opportunistic quick taps, for England now whilst ..or at least far less often than they do for their clubs.
if England arent expecting their halfbacks to run with the ball in set play then its not really such a big deal if their 15 stone scrum half is immobile.

As Beshocked would say its a much bigger concern when you have a guy with no running game at 13 than at 10.

If Floods going to get his 10 shirt back he needs to start hitting 80% of his goal kicks again and bossing games for his club. Burns can get back in his hypemobile for now.

dgttaylor wrote:The beauty of the Parling try was that Farrell put a 30m pass perfectly in front of him for him to run on to...what's the point in passing to someone stationary? His passing game is extremely accurate. As to its pace do you mean he holds on to the ball too long before passing or his pass lacks zip? I would disagree on both points.

To be fair, your over hyping that pass. Yes it was a brilliant pass but it was nowhere near perfect. Paling was lucky to catch it off his boot laces.

He is not a very large running threat by himself, I think thats a given.

He is a very good play maker and his passing is dead on. Thats what England need when we have men like Barrat and Tuilagi in the midfield, Farells game is unleashing the runners around him to their best ability. Start given Tuilagi rubbish ball to work with and he will be rated average very quickly.

Plus we know his place kicking percentages are v good. When we are attacking in an opponents half, we are more likely to come away with points.

He has been labelled the next Jonny Wilkinson, because he literally is the same mould. Wilko was never a running threat, but was really good at distributing and place kicking and we all know how well that worked out for England back in the day.

He's a promising talent, but some are over hyping him, for example by saying that he's now ahead of Sexton for the Lions, granted not many have said that.

I don't think Saracens is the right club for him, earlier in the season some Sarries fans were saying he shouldn't have been in the starting 15 as Hodgson was playing better at 10 and Tomkins is a better 13. I also think he's a player that struggles when not playing behind a winning pack, which is the real acid test of a lot of 10s, particularly at international level.

He can improve.

One thing he has is a big game temperament... he's not fazed by the big stage.

If you have that then you can work on all other aspects of his game.

Look at Carlos Spencer.... great player, for me the most talented 10 in the pro era. But come the big games his kicking game was very very unreliable.... thats why the ABs weren't succesful with him, they either had to take a chance of his kicks (not confident) or choose a lesser valued player somewhere else in the backline who was up to the challenge in place of a better player.

His success rate with the boot in his 13 tests is 83%..... I don't even think Jonny had that kind of success at test level.

Although Chris Patterson success rate with the boot was 100% for 2 years

Kicking is not everything, but it is important

The real test will be when he does not get an armchair ride from his forwards, as against Scotland any 10 would have looked good

A good player, areas to develop, and a strong kicker

Riskysports

Patterson is like Peter Grant though. He had a poor range and wouldn't go for anything beyond the 10m line. If he had his rate would have been far lower.

Perhaps we would have scored more points but Patterson's rate would have been less.

I understand Sexton in the HC last year had a 90% rate..... probably the best last year (even though club rugby is different in pressure to test rugby).

Did anyone notice Farrell clearing out Ritchie Gray before Ashton's try?

Yeh, great clear out, and good tenacity for a fly half

Fa0019 - it was not actually that short a range and he still got the ones from the touch line

I think the short kicks this is a little bit of a myth. He could do 45 m no problem, just knew what his range was

Put it this way

I would have Farrel in the Scotland team in a heart beat

Can I say as an Irishman and a guy who is not too happy watching Saracens style of play, that I really like Farrell.

Not just because he has an Irish name.

FFS the guy could have played U20s last year. For his age he is just phenomenal.

Tough as an old boot mentally and physically. Great attitude. Obviously an incredible kicker.

OK if you line up Quade Cooper, Danny Cipriani, & Carlos Spencer on one side, he is on the other. But he is just not that type of player. They have no hope of doing what he does either.

Just like you can't coach what they do to him, you can't coach his mentality to them either. You either have that toughness or you don't.

And while he will never play like those 3, his toughness will ensure that he works like a ba$tard to get the most out of his talents and improves his game.

Notwithstanding his goal kicking, he's had one good game against the viral ABs and one very good game against the struggling Scots - in a year of playing for England. Given that his last 2 games have been his best let's hope his best rugby is ahead of him.

Where Scotlandhad Parks to take anything over 10m for Patterson England have Beeweetweetwees who can land a straight kick form pretty much any distance (well any distance under 60m). It'll be interesting to see if they ever choose to use that. Wales too have used Henson and Halfpenny as range kickers backing up the percentage guy.
Farrell has a good percentage at the short wide ones which takes a different skillset to banging it from your own half (which he is capable of too "on his day")

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Notwithstanding his goal kicking, he's had one good game against the viral ABs and one very good game against the struggling Scots - in a year of playing for England. Given that his last 2 games have been his best let's hope his best rugby is ahead of him.

One good game against a viral ABs?

No All Black usd that virous as an excuse for losing to England. They have all said that England won fair and square.

It's part of their culture - no AB wants to admit to a runny bottom. But did you see how quickly they left the field?

In fairness the guy is only 20 or 21 and playing well as a starting international outhalf,if he was Irish he'd still be playing AIL club rugby cos we don't trust guys that young in such a pivotal position.

You won't see the best of Farrell for another 7 or 8 years and imo that makes what he's doing now all the more impressive.

I agree he has a number of flaws, but the focus and natural coolness of a kid so young is very impressive!!

I disagree his defence is all that good, but it has improved in 12 months rapidly.

He is a bit lumbersome, and isn't naturally gifted ball in hand, but from what his running threat and distribution game lacks his boot more than makes up for at present, not just at goal too!

The way I see it the problem Farrell has trying for the lions tour is that Sexton is far superior ball in hand, and will travel, and Wilko's strengths are similar to Farells but arguably Wilko is slightly superior in each way at present.

Lets not get carried away mind, Wales did that at the WC with RP and look where that took him too!! He is a young kid playing very well, by all means play him but rely on him at your peril, especially when Flood and Burns are itching for a crack.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:It's part of their culture - no AB wants to admit to a runny bottom. But did you see how quickly they left the field?

I vaguely remember seeing them all still on the pitch quite a while after the game ended.

Farrell seems to be timing his passes better now and committing more defenders. Obviously Sexton has 4 years of credit in the bank, but if Farrell keeps playing like he did against Scotland then he'll be in a very strong position.

Can we not do the whole 'NZ were sick' thing? It's been done to death!

majesticimperialman wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Notwithstanding his goal kicking, he's had one good game against the viral ABs and one very good game against the struggling Scots - in a year of playing for England. Given that his last 2 games have been his best let's hope his best rugby is ahead of him.

One good game against a viral ABs?

No All Black usd that virous as an excuse for losing to England. They have all said that England won fair and square.

Thats because of who they are maj. Same as 2007 and 1995. They dont 'do' excuses.

If NZ did escuses...

kick NZ day is it blues? Wait till the drug thing kicks in here...we might have more ammo for you.

What are you talking about Taylorman, I just asked for the whole NZ thing not to be entered, but playfully used the 'If Carlsberg did...' advert!!

You need to relax a touch.

Couldnt be more relaxed blues...breaky on the deck...beautiful Saturday morning here in warm, sunny Wellington.

I love having breaky on my deck, I have a wonderfull view, I even forced myself to do so the other day, but it ended poorly when my OJ went icy!

Right now my heating is off, and most of my lighting unwired, I have no door (chipboard covering hole) and can see my own breath, so excuse me if I bash warmer nations for the next few nights

Jeez mates, Farrell is barely out of puberty.

He is developing and coming along nicely. Will he continue to develop his game or will he plateau? Only time will tell. I'm still not sure he is the best choice for England, but England is winning with him. That means a lot. He already has the most important trait of all: the temperament of a winner.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I love having breaky on my deck, I have a wonderfull view, I even forced myself to do so the other day, but it ended poorly when my OJ went icy!

Right now my heating is off, and most of my lighting unwired, I have no door (chipboard covering hole) and can see my own breath, so excuse me if I bash warmer nations for the next few nights

Fair call. I know its been yuk up there recently. Last 2 weeks we had nothing but sun- no wind or rain or clouds until it rained a bit the other day. bit weird. Driest Jan for 50 years.

You'll have to do the emigration thing and adopt a new side methinks- get the best of both worlds...well...for a few months a year at least...just kidding.

Will be supporting Wales tonight. I like to be there when a team turns the tide so to speak.

You mean tomorrow

Ye the emigration thing has crossed my mind on more than one occasion, am not in my 30's yet but I can feel the strain on the ticker being a Wales and Blues fan!!!

Will be in OZ in the summer for a little scouting mission, although with a very pale, and catholic Irish missus I can't imagine her allowing it.

cool...love being in oz. Its sooooooooo big!

Here you can get the AB's and our own Blues..with Henry and JK to boot. Though our blues were our worst side last year.

I'll take your Blues over mine any day of the week!!!

Couldn't support the AB's though, although I could definately serve them supper before they play Wales next

Sadly we both know Wales would still get beat!!

To me he's got a presence very few players have, and he's so young. I think he's got a real chance of becoming a great player.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'll take your Blues over mine any day of the week!!!

Couldn't support the AB's though, although I could definately serve them supper before they play Wales next

Sadly we both know Wales would still get beat!!

I've always known Cardiff as one of the few sides to have beaten the AB's- 53-54 side with Bleddyn Williams and they were strong in the 70's with Newport (gold and black), Bennets Llanelli (red), swansea (white)- gee I still remember all the colours. Dont recall Ospreys back then so whats happened to these sides?

Anyway, back to the OP. For me you cant rate a 10 on a handful of games. It is so difficult to master the position at the international level and only when you have been able to perform against a variety of sides can you really judge them. And NH supporters are so quick to elevate players to the heavens one week then disown them the next its unbelievable. Farrel was getting rubbished this time last year.

Taylor

You mean the sides with all the history and heritage? They have been reduced to amateur status, play only a sunday league style comp, and have basically been told by the WRU they are nothing!!!

They have been replaced by the regional 'generic name' model that noone really wants!!

Welsh club rugby is on life support, and the WRU are more than happy to pull the plug.

Look at how useful ROG was to Ireland for 10 years. And he couldn't even tackle.

In the week before the NZ game there were numerous articles and posts about the weaknesses in Farrell and Manus game. People were demanding they be dropped and sent back to learn how to play. One game later Manu went from Zero to Hero while Farrell had a decent game. Another match later and one very good performance from Farrell and suddenly he is a deity.

As always you are never as good as the hype, nor as bad as the diatribes.

What Farrell has demonstrated amply in his short career is he has the composure needed for international rugby. His goal kicking and tackling are excellent. His tactical kicking is improving - and he seemed to show against Scotland that he is learning all the time. There was a better range of passing and enough on display to suggest he can keep improving.

What I said back in November still stands - he will not become Dan Carter, but no reaso nhe cannot be as good, and quite possibly better, than Jonny Wilkinson.

His Dad picks the team


He is quality, however my preference is for Freddie Burns.

yappysnap wrote:...or is he not as good as everyone seems to think.

We all know he has a good mindset and his defence is strong. Not to take anything away from him he does nail his kicks when they count and if a forward runs at him he'll nail the guy.

BUT

He is very slow when attacking the line and offers little running threat, his passing is still slow and he doesn't have much variety to it ( yes Parlings try was good but look at where the ball was travelling, if Parling hadn't run from nowhere to grab it he'd have thrown it straight to the deck).

Sorry to be a doubter but I fail to see how he's close to the Lions and to be honest I still feel he needs to show more for England.

I don't think it's just you. I still think he's way off being top class, but the things he does very well are enough to gloss over this when we win.

I'm not a fan of Farrell at all but he was excellent against Scotland and showed massive signs of improvement on last season.

He deserves to keep the 10 jersey on current form.

For a guy his age playing fly half he's fantastic. With him and Flood and Burns England have pretty much all the options they need. The futures bright.

dummy_half wrote:It's message board wisdom again - the idea that no player has ever improved following his debut.

Yes, Farrell has a good temperament and is an outstanding place kicker, and no he's not likely to rip a defence apart as a ball carrier (but then, how many modern day 10s would do - Carter then ? ), but his distribution skills have shapened up and he's getting quite proficient at putting support players through holes.

Of course, the fact that England have been producing quick ball consistently has helped make both Youngs and Farrell look better players.

Oh, and none of the above excuses his facial contortions when kicking for goal. The idiosyncratic (some would argue idiotic) posturing is obviously something England kickers work on - Farrell's one-eyed squint is just a follow-up to the Wilkinson 'sitting on a shooting stick'crouch.

Well Cruden attacks the line well, as does Cooper, Beale, O'Conner, Barrett, Goosen and Lambie.