England Player Ratings v Ireland

15- Goode. Worked to get himself in to the game a lot more against Ireland, dealt with most of his kicks well only dropping two, still not sure if he has the pace or power to make an international 15 but is growing in to his role. 6/10
14- Ashton. Fairly anonymous for most of the game other then catching any kicks coming his way, missed a key tackle to release Earles down his wing, wasn't really a game for a winger to enjoy though, did win a key lineout against Kearney though but also got isolated and conceded two pens. 3/10
13- Barritt. Put in an immense shift in defense that kept the Irish backs shackled and under enough pressure to drop the ball frequently. Still needs to show a little more attacking threat though. 7/10
12- Twelvetrees. A solid display in the rain to follow up his debut, tackled and passed well and was never caught out by his far more experienced opposition. 6/10
11- Brown. A rock under the high ball and still refuses to be tackled by one man. Probably the right kind of game for two fb's but he can't carry on playing 11, looked a lot more assured on the wing this game then last though and still made more metres ball in hand then anyone else (76 in 7 carries). 6.5/10
10- Farrel. Another all round game to prove the doubters (me) are clueless. As always his goal kicking and confrontational defense was right up there, but the best thing he showed today was his kicking from hand especially for his wings to chase, some of which were sublime and make you wish we had Banahan back for the cross kick. 8/10
9- Youngs. Gave Farrel quick ball when needed, ran well when the option was on and kicked perfectly in poor conditions. A very good all round game from the 9. 7.5/10
8- Wood. You have to feel sorry for Wood, he's been a stand out performer in the last 3 games at 6 and then gets moved to 8 where he's played exactly zero rugby. Unsurprisingly we got to watch his worst game in an England shirt against Ireland, he was poor at the base of the scrum, often out of position in defence and didn't carry well. This is probably Lancasters first big selection error. 5/10
7- Robshaw. The perfect kind of game for Robshaw, he put in the most tackles (14) including some brilliant cover tackling on the Irish wings and centres, hit rucks and slowed ball all day, caught ball in the lineout, worked well with the referee and made the third most metres of any Eng play (15). He was literally everywhere at times. 8.5/10
6- Haskell. Brought power and a little bit of directness to the England backrow, helped to slow down Irish ball alongside his captain as well. Did get a slightly harsh yellow and still needs to use his size to tackle harder but otherwise a good performance. 7/10
5- Parling. For the second game in two weeks he's failed to get synchronized with Youngs at the lineout which resulted in a lot of unnecessary pressure on England. Otherwise he tackled and rucked well like the rest of the pack and save a silly dropped ball had a solid game in the loose. 6/10
4- Launchberry. A slightly quiet game for the youngster, he wasn't as prominent in the loose as we've come to expect and was doing as much in the tight as some of the others in the pack, seemed to struggle a little at times with the physicality of the Irish pack but is still the only forward to have beaten a defender on the day. 5/10
3- Cole. Had a very mixed game in the confusing scrums. Won a couple of hits but then also conceded two pens as well, faded out of the game quickly after the Healy incident but before that looked like he was finally working along the same lines as Marler and putting pressure on. Didn't manage to make an impact around the park. 6/10
2- Youngs. Had a game to forget in the rain, poor throwing in the lineout put England under far too much pressure and squandered key attacking chances, also seemed to struggle under pressure in the scrums. He showed up well in defence though and hit rucks like a mastodon. 5/10
1- Marler. The first half was probably one of Marler's best games for England, he had his opposite number Ross in his pocket and was getting around the park well. Opposition props really struggle against his super long bind and it's only when he gets that arm pulled on that he loses the contest. Got through a lot of work though and made an impressive number of tackles. 6.5/10

Total - 91/150 B+

Yappy don't agree with Haskell, he dropped a few sitters, had some real brainfarts in is decision making, and almost brought Ireland back in the game de to his transgrssions. 5/10 from me.

Parling gets a 7/10 from me, easily one of the better lock displays I have seen on the ground from an english ball carrier. Can't remember how the line outs went , but ball in hand he was very good.

Agree on Ashton, or maybe I just don't like him much.

I would much rather have Brown on the wing than Goode.

I thought Goode had a really composed game and played a big role in your win.

When the game turned into a tactical kicking duelfest I thought he was solid under the high ball, he used the mark well to calm things down and ensure of his return kicking was accurate. Made one good break.

I thought Ashton was actually very poor and if we were to score a try it would come out on his wing. Fell off tackles (I remember him missing three), seemed the poorest of the four wingers. As you say was isolated at times and conceded a few penalties. A very poor display from him IMO.

Maybe slightly harsh on Goode and Wood for me yappy. I thought Goode actually had quite an assured game given the conditions. His placement at times was excellent and he managed to force the Irish back into their territory with some accurate kicking.

Wood I thought did suffer by playing out of position, but put in a usual industrious performance. He tackled well, and was vicious at the breakdown. His control at the base left a little to be desired at times, but given the conditions, he did ok. I certainly think he outplayed Heaslip.

Good to see Marler given a high ratings- some others I've seen had him rated ratrher low, even though he gave Ross a torrid time.

Ashton won some good penalties, but it certainly wasn't a game for running wingers. He looked hungry for work and found some, which is all you can ask for from a winger in those conditions.

Agree largely will all the rest.

A couple of odd ratings - Brown was far better than Ashton (in a game that as you said suited the 2nd full back much more than a winger that runs support lines), and probably merited a 6, maybe a 7. Agree that long term he possibly isn't the best option on the left wing (probably should play at 15), but yesterday he didn't make any mistakes in defensive positioning (Gilroy never really threatened opposite him, while Earls made two good breaks on the other wing, one of which was attributable to Ashton's defence), while being solid under the high ball and being a strong carrier - it's a long time since I've seen a player that is so good at making the first tackler miss.

T Youngs probably should only merit a 4, simply because of the big line-out wobble at the start of the 2nd half. The possession we conceded then played a big part in letting Ireland get back to 6-6.

A bit generous on Haskell and a bit harsh on Wood, who made plenty of tackles and was busy at the breakdown but did struggle controlling the ball at the base of the scrum.

How Ashton got a 5, I'll never know, he missed twice as many tackles as he made, gave away 2 penalties and 1 turnover and did absolutely nothing ball in hand! This will come across as bias but giving him and Brown the same score is a joke, Yappy.

I'd say-

Goode- 6. Didn't pass once, which I thought was the main reason he was starting, to be a playmaker? But had a very defensively competent game. Played better than Kearney and kicked well

Ashton- 3. See stats above, see absolute lack of impact on game in attack or defence. Plus one of his 2 tackles was shared with Brown so I'm not convinced he'd have made it on his own!

Barritt- 6.5. No flair today but solid defence and that was what we needed

Twelvetrees- 5. Nothing going for him either way this weekend, not bad but not a day for footballing skills anyway.

Brown- 6.5. Looked far more comfortable this week, made the most yardage in the match despite the ball never reaching the wings and made his tackles and caught his kicks. Made just about our only break too.

Farrell- 6. Didn't move the backs at all but not the day for it. Missed a kickable shot at goal but did his job 100x better than ROG

Youngs-6. Kicked sometimes when it really wasn't necessary but generally well and controlled the game

Wood- 5.5. He was ok, not as involved as usual but out of position.

Robshaw- 8. Omnipresent again, plus led his side through a difficult Irish attempt at a comeback

Haskell- 4. Played ok but no Morgan. Loses points for his foolish sin binning which could easily have lost the match singlehandedly.

Parling- 5.5. Ok but a poor day at the lineout plus a drop I remember

Launchbury- 6. Same as above but can't remember him in the loose. Seems to be helping our breakdown though

Cole- 6. Played less well after he was stamped on but offered a lot in the tackle and floor

Youngs- 4. Ok in loose but throwing was abysmal.

Marler - 6. Did pretty well in scrum and offered himself about

Revised the scores a little to allow for the widespread views on here

Think you're a little harsh on a few players there CJ, Farrel and Youngs controlled the game far better then their opposite numbers and should get higher scores for playing the conditions so well. Haskell for me did a lot of the nasty work that Wood normaly does and that's why he got the higher score, he hit rucks, slowed up ball and was generally a pain in the arse. Wood just looked a bit lost.

Personally:


Goode- 7 calm and assured at the back. Pretty solid under the high ball though dropped one. Good kicking. Solid defensively

Ashton- 4. Not a great day at the office though some of his kick chase wasn't bad.

Barritt- 7. Kept BOD well shackled and stopped Ireland from building momentum in attack. In the thick of it.

Twelvetrees- 5. Did ok but not a day for him to shine.

Brown- 7. An assured figure in the back three.

Farrell- 8. Tackled like a lion, great kicking from hand. Good place kicking - his two misses were very tough. Not a day for throwing the ball around.

Youngs-7.5 Controlled proceedings really well.

Wood- 6 Not his most industrious game but control from the back of the scrum.

Robshaw- 9 - man of the match. Everywhere.

Haskell- 5. Gave away two penalties including the sin bin.

Parling- 5. - Guilty for a lack of momentum with him dropping the ball and with the lineout not working

Launchbury- 5. A solid if unspectacular game.

Cole- 6 Scrum battle didn't go particularly well but battled hard

Youngs- 4. Poor in the set piece

Marler - 6 See Cole.

Good to see recognition for Barritt, who is consistently underrated by almost everyone, in my opinion. Offers real stability and yesterday, at least, was the most effective centre on view.

Ben Youngs has had his critics, but he was excellent yesterday. A real little general on a day that needed one. 7.5s for both him and Barritt. England should draw some solace from winning a game in which they were comprehensively bested at the line-out and achieved no better than parity in the scrum.

Anybody think Hartley might get the nod v France?

Youngs has had a few problems with his throwing (plus the indiscipline v Scotland that resulting in Launchberry's try being chalked off).

He seems to have been unceremoniously hoiked off in the last two games, although it could have been a pre-planned substitution.

I'm not sure. I like Hartley coming off the bench, but I wonder whether SL is thinking about a swap? We don't want Youngs' confidence to take a knock but our line-out hasn't been brilliant on our own throw.

Captain carrantuohil I agree with you completely.

Yes Cyril I think he might well. Harsh on T.Youngs but he did not have a good day at the office. He's relatively inexperienced though. As you say not sure dropping him will help his confidence.

Fair enough, I was probably harsh on Farrell, but I didn't think we merited particularly high scores across the park

No generally it should be 5's or 6's with the only stand outs being 7, 9 and 10.

Cyril

I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Hartley starting against France - once he came on we played our best 15 minutes of the match, and he put right the line-out issues.

Tom Youngs perhaps offers more both as a ball carrier and as another guy to smash into rucks, but Hartley has more nous and experience and that bit extra bulk.

I don't think swapping their roles (starter v bench) will really undermine Youngs' confidence - he's played well 3 or 4 times but had a couple of shaky spells with the lineout, so he knows what he needs to work on.

The other interesting call for the next match will be in the centres - 12trees didn't really shine this week (although in a game that didn't suit him), and Manu does offer a more obvious power carrier option while Barritt is just an absolute rock in defence and does little wrong when he gets the ball in hand.

Hopefully Morgan will be back fit (I assume he will, as he was kept with the squad for treatment, suggesting it wasn't too serious an injury), and we can be back to the well balanced and effective back row of the AB and Scotland games (plus Haskell back to the bench).

Only two points.
This was the type of game in which Wood should have done very well. But at 6 or 7. Not 8. Clearly underpowered at the base. As a Saints fan, I don't recall him ever starting at 8, only filling in - rarely - at the end of a couple of matches. Haskell would have been better at 8, which I said beforehand. Wood did get his tackles, like usual, and got around the field, but would have been better on the flank.

I think this was Tom Youngs poorest performance so far. To be fair, he has done surprisingly well so far, and good for England to have competition at hooker. But I think this shows Hartley should be starting.

doctor grey hopefully Morgan is back for France. Then Wood can move back to 6. I think England missed Morgan's powerful ball carrying prowess.

T.Youngs was poor as you say but he's had a generally good start to his England career. Ireland away is certainly a tough test.

captain carrantuohil wrote:
Ben Youngs has had his critics, but he was excellent yesterday. A real little general on a day that needed one.

Yep, and I'm normally one of them. I thought he played very, very well yesterday. Along with Robshaw and Barritt, they were the stand-outs for me.

Marler played well too, I thought. More-or-less even across the rest of the side, although Haskell let himself down, and Ashton was sloppy in defence.

I'm unsure about Goode, generally, but thought he marshalled the back three well yesterday. I agree with the other posters though, Brown's not a winger, but can you leave him out?

Finally, is Cian Healey being cited?

Before the game I was worried about Brown vs Zebo, as it turned out, with the weather the way it was, having 2 fullbacks was certainly an advantage.

Ashton does need to pull his finger out a bit, his defense needs work.

For France (injuries permiting) I would bring back Morgan and start with Hartley. I would like to bring Tuilagi back too but 12T hasn't done anything wrong. Barritt has been too solid to drop I think.

dummy_half wrote: 12trees didn't really shine this week (although in a game that didn't suit him),

Id actually say the conditions suited having a 12 with a good kicking game but who does keep the opposition guessing. they maybe didnt give him the opportunity to show the headlining grabbing flair so much but they did suit having a guy with a strong kicking game. He even perhaps shouldve taken the long penalty that Farrell missed, hes very strong at straight(ish) kicks from that range whereas Farrells more stroking style becomes increasingly eractic with range.
The argument with Barrit vs Tuilagi continues. Really it wouldnt have made much odds which played, they didnt really see the ball nor were they called on to tackle much since the Irish backs saw equally little. I would look at Tuilagi as the kind of player who can conjure a try from nothing though.

This was Tom Youngs second poor day throwing. Last time was against SA - and of course the following week he gave a barnstorming performance against NZ.

I can see the case for starting Hartley - and would probably agree. This should then mean dropping youngs entirely. Would you want to bring a hooker on, late in the game with doubts about his throwing?

the alternative is to recognise that Englands game is based predomin antly on their aggressive (Sarries style) defence - and here Youngs is a key player. His speed and shin high tackles take away all momentum from the opposition. His work clearing out at ruck and maul is also phenomenal and helps to create the quick ball England so desire.

So for me it would be either start with Youngs and vring Hartley on to close out the game. OR Start with Hartley and have one of the Quins pair on the bench.

Barritt was immense yesterday and we know SL rewards form. I'd go with 12.Barritt 13.Tuilagi v France and perhaps try 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi v Italy.

Manu will be allowed to play against Quins to get game-time. I reckon he needs to impress if he is to start against France.

Could he go Manu 12 and Barritt 13?

Agree almost entirely with the ratings. I also agree that Barritt might get a rest against Italy, giving Twelvetrees and Tuilagi a chance to play together.

It's nice to see guys like Marler, Robshaw, Youngs, Farrell and Barritt actually improving the more time they spend in the England camp. Back in the brief period when Johnson's team was playing well it just felt like a few selection decisions had come together at the right time, rather than that the players were actually developing with every game.

nobbled wrote:Could he go Manu 12 and Barritt 13?

Seems a bit silly as they play the other way round at club level.

I cant see him changing the centers for the next game. Any changes would likely be in the pack with Hartley coming in for Youngs and possibly a reshuffle to make a saner backrow.

Biltong wrote:
I would much rather have Brown on the wing than Goode.

and that is a good excuse to keep them both on for now, personally I'd rather Wade be there and Brown fullback

Question - is it only me, or does anyone else get a sense of excitement when Brown runs the ball? I don't get that with Goode as he never looks aggressive enough. Brown is a cocky SOB and is determined to find space.

damage_13 wrote:

Biltong wrote:
I would much rather have Brown on the wing than Goode.

and that is a good excuse to keep them both on for now, personally I'd rather Wade be there and Brown fullback

Question - is it only me, or does anyone else get a sense of excitement when Brown runs the ball? I don't get that with Goode as he never looks aggressive enough. Brown is a cocky SOB and is determined to find space.

I think that of the two Goode is the cockier. In fact i think he is one of the cockiest players i have ever seen. He has this air about him that he has all the time in the world. He exudes calmness and it spreads to the rest of the side. Sometimes i think he almost over does it as he sidesteps five times in a row but doesnt actually move anywhere.

Brown on the other hand just seems incredibly determined to beat tackles and to stay up on his feet and going forwards. Never knows when he's tackled. An absolute metre eater.

damage_13 wrote:

Biltong wrote:
I would much rather have Brown on the wing than Goode.

and that is a good excuse to keep them both on for now, personally I'd rather Wade be there and Brown fullback

Question - is it only me, or does anyone else get a sense of excitement when Brown runs the ball? I don't get that with Goode as he never looks aggressive enough. Brown is a cocky SOB and is determined to find space.

I get that excitement. He never gives up. When you think he's tackled, he just carries on. Fabulous player.

Brown is playing every game with total commitment - of all the players on Sunday he looked the one who most wanted to be there and was determined to make the most of it. It was typified by the pen he won near the end chasing up his own kick.

Like most people, I'd still prefer to see him at fullback, but it would be harsh to displace Goode, the "two fullbacks" ploy seems to be working, and right now there isn't an EQP winger who's looking rounded enough in terms of kicking and defence.

Goode is perfect for a wet tactical kicking game, for a fast paced counter attacking game he doesn't offer that much from fullback at all, much rather an in form foden or brown every day. But we keep on winning so whos to argue.

P.s Ashton was never 3 bad, 5 maybe especially with the brand at 7 !

The wet weather was clearly a game changer. But should a team be selected with the weather in mind? Clearly this would mean naming the team much later than is usual. On a wet day like Sunday, would England have been better picking 3 fullbacks in the back 3 (i.e. Foden for Ashton).

Or should the same team be selected whatever the weather?

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176940.html

For the second week running, Brown was listed by the Rugby Football Union's own measurements to be England's most influential player.

His contribution during the 10 minutes when James Haskell was sin-binned was match-winning, given he had a direct hand in winning the two penalties which took the score from 6-6 to 12-6.

mbernz wrote:http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176940.html

For the second week running, Brown was listed by the Rugby Football Union's own measurements to be England's most influential player.

His contribution during the 10 minutes when James Haskell was sin-binned was match-winning, given he had a direct hand in winning the two penalties which took the score from 6-6 to 12-6.

BOOM!

And just like he's been having to do for his entire career Brown blows his critics ill founded arguments out of the water.

Poorfour wrote:Brown is playing every game with total commitment - of all the players on Sunday he looked the one who most wanted to be there and was determined to make the most of it. It was typified by the pen he won near the end chasing up his own kick.

Like most people, I'd still prefer to see him at fullback, but it would be harsh to displace Goode, the "two fullbacks" ploy seems to be working, and right now there isn't an EQP winger who's looking rounded enough in terms of kicking and defence.

Brown at the back and Foden on the wing seems the more sensible option. But Lancaster will continue to stick by the current formula till it goes wrong. Understandable.

Ashton has actually never played well v Ireland. I have seen him play 3 six nations matches v ireland and never really looked like scoring. I know he is a good player but lets face it hes not great.

TBF on Ashton he never got the chance to play, he simply wasnt in the game. The ball wasnt coming out to him, there wasnt the go forward in attack to allow him to drift in and take advantage of gaps in the defence, and unlike Brown and Goode he doesnt get to field the deep kicks and boost his metres gained stats by running in space.

His tackling was sh1te though.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:TBF on Ashton he never got the chance to play, he simply wasnt in the game. The ball wasnt coming out to him, there wasnt the go forward in attack to allow him to drift in and take advantage of gaps in the defence, and unlike Brown and Goode he doesnt get to field the deep kicks and boost his metres gained stats by running in space.

His tackling was sh1te though.

Is he a Lion Peter?

Unless he starts scoring tries and helps England and Sarries to tophies, probably not.

Brown's input into games is light years ahead of where it was in 2008/9 and he has proved to be a quality player with Quins. For me though he has to play at FB or not at all.

It's harsh on Goode but I do think a Brown/Foden/Ashton back three gives England a lot more potency. Goode could always cover FH as well from the bench so that might be an option, particularly with Flood's patchy form. I know Goode gives an extra dimension as a play-maker from the back but with 36 at IC that's somewhat negated.

On the Ashton front he's an excellent player with some suspect moments defensively in games. Primarily though his value outweighs some of his defensive miss-fires. Much like Jonny May might come to prove soon!

And Ashton was good against Scotland. Busy and took his try well

I'd say May is a more rounded player than Ashton to be fair. He's grown up playing Union from a young age and come through the age groups from what I've heard (it's hard to verify with some guys) as such he's got very good core skills and a good rugby brain.

Unfortunately in many senses Ashton hasn't - his hands are quite poor, his tackling/rucking technique often poor though that is improving. He is however a terrier with ball in hand and has an eye for the tryline.

In terms of playing Wade and Ashton on either wing I really wouldn't be a fan as it would give us somewhat defensive liabilities on each wing and a lack of kicking ability in the back three. Right now I'd like to see 11.Foden 14.Ashton 15.Brown moving to 11.May 14.Ashton/Wade 15.Brown in the future. Call me a sentimentalist but I'd still love to see JSD on the right if he could get fit!

Mays tackling and kicking has been very good when I've seen it, he'd bring a heck of a lot of pace to the backs too!