How much pride could this guy have?

Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

Why is it any different to Tuilagi? Except Tuilagi had an option, Claassen is deemed not good enough for SA and wants int rugby, Tuilagi has chosen to represent a more succesfull team than his heritage (similar to PI's for NZ)

What exactly is the difference to all the SH players who come up North and play int rugby?

Don't know, ask Hape (or Flutey)

Tuilagi can't make a living in his home nation because they don't have a professional setup, we do.

But he can make his living in England and play for his home nation (all his brothers have)

thebluesmancometh wrote:But he can make his living in England and play for his home nation (all his brothers have)

Where did Tuilagi grow up?

To be fair to Manusamoa, he pretty much grew up in England, and as far as I am aware has come through their systems etc. As for Saffers playing elsewhere I struggle to see how they can do it with pride (Although Andres Petorious is blatently welsh cough).

Out of interest are there any South Africans in the Italy or Scotland squads (Wales, England, Ireland and France all have them now).

There have been a number of South Africans in the Italy squad. There were two in their 2011 RWC squad, Geldenhuys and van Zyl

Biltong wrote:There have been a number of South Africans in the Italy squad. There were two in their 2011 RWC squad, Geldenhuys and van Zyl

So what your saying is Scotland should have a word with the IRB and see if they can send Maitland back and bring Lambie over instead (he is, wel was, Scottish qualified), so we can all be on an ever playing feild.

I think Denton is a Zimbabwean and played his youth Rugby in South Africa but has a Scottish mother.

Tuilagi did come through the English system, but how is coming through someones system and having to leave you own nation for a job any different.

Players want to be playing int rugby, if they don't think they can get it at home they try elsewhere.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Biltong wrote:There have been a number of South Africans in the Italy squad. There were two in their 2011 RWC squad, Geldenhuys and van Zyl

So what your saying is Scotland should have a word with the IRB and see if they can send Maitland back and bring Lambie over instead (he is, wel was, Scottish qualified), so we can all be on an ever playing feild.

You could but it is sadly too late, but with a little patience you'll soon have Joshua Strauss and WP Nel.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Tuilagi did come through the English system, but how is coming through someones system and having to leave you own nation for a job any different.

Players want to be playing int rugby, if they don't think they can get it at home they try elsewhere.

I really don't think I need to explain it to you.

Tobias Botes is another.

There are a fair few Aussies in the current Italian squad.

Biltong wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Biltong wrote:There have been a number of South Africans in the Italy squad. There were two in their 2011 RWC squad, Geldenhuys and van Zyl

So what your saying is Scotland should have a word with the IRB and see if they can send Maitland back and bring Lambie over instead (he is, wel was, Scottish qualified), so we can all be on an ever playing feild.

You could but it is sadly too late, but with a little patience you'll soon have Joshua Strauss and WP Nel.

The way Nel's playing, im not sure we want him. Came with a reputation for being a good scrummager, but hes getting pasted by mighty front rows such as the munster 3rds...

Geldenhuys was playing at the weekend for Italy.


Did Claasens play junior level for the Boks biltong?

This country swapping is one area where I think football has it right. As the global system is dominated by clubs, there is little to no money in playing for other countries it seems. Whereas in rugby, the opposite is true. I think I read players get £15k for each England game? You would only have to play for 1 season (AI games, 6N and summer tour) to have over a £100k, probably for playing less games than you would for your club.

France may be a different amount, but you can still see why players want to play international rugby for someone, even if its not their own country.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Biltong wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Biltong wrote:There have been a number of South Africans in the Italy squad. There were two in their 2011 RWC squad, Geldenhuys and van Zyl

So what your saying is Scotland should have a word with the IRB and see if they can send Maitland back and bring Lambie over instead (he is, wel was, Scottish qualified), so we can all be on an ever playing feild.

You could but it is sadly too late, but with a little patience you'll soon have Joshua Strauss and WP Nel.

The way Nel's playing, im not sure we want him. Came with a reputation for being a good scrummager, but hes getting pasted by mighty front rows such as the munster 3rds...

Send him back, the Cheetahs can use him on their hard minefields.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Geldenhuys was playing at the weekend for Italy.


Did Claasens play junior level for the Boks biltong?

This country swapping is one area where I think football has it right. As the global system is dominated by clubs, there is little to no money in playing for other countries it seems. Whereas in rugby, the opposite is true. I think I read players get £15k for each England game? You would only have to play for 1 season (AI games, 6N and summer tour) to have over a £100k, probably for playing less games than you would for your club.

France may be a different amount, but you can still see why players want to play international rugby for someone, even if its not their own country.

Yes he played in the junior world cup for SA in 2002.

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

The pride of getting picked?

The 'what are you?' question is a very complex one that's been done to death on these pages. I can only say that my ideal International side would be a side populated by players who were born in and grew up wanting to play for the country they eventually play for.

That's my ideal. Others obviously have different ideals and this is far from being an ideal world. Let the real world continue. I can't stop it alone

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

The pride of getting picked?

The 'what are you?' question is a very complex one that's been done to death on these pages. I can only say that my ideal International side would be a side populated by players who were born in and grew up wanting to play for the country they eventually play for.

That's my ideal. Others obviously have different ideals and this is far from being an ideal world. Let the real world continue. I can't stop it alone

I think those ideals you are talking about is what has gone wrong with this world, idealism is for naive fools not wanting the world to change when they have seen the writing on the wall many moons ago (I count myself as one of those fools)

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

The pride of getting picked?

The 'what are you?' question is a very complex one that's been done to death on these pages. I can only say that my ideal International side would be a side populated by players who were born in and grew up wanting to play for the country they eventually play for.

That's my ideal. Others obviously have different ideals and this is far from being an ideal world. Let the real world continue. I can't stop it alone

Sectrefly is right, you're making the assumption that everyone has the same idea of nationality that you do Biltong. I can assure you they don't. I honestly do not understand people frothing at the mouth at this sort of thing. If he's not good enough for your national team - no loss, if he is and isn't getting picked - blame the coach, if he is and was likely to get picked but then leaves to play for another nationality, well then he probably wasn't going to offer the sort of unwavering die-hard pride in the jersey you want.

I still don't know exactly what it is that you hate about this?

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

He's not his da.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

He's not his da.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SixNations/France-call-up-SA-born-Antonie-Claassen-20130211

Hood83 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

The pride of getting picked?

The 'what are you?' question is a very complex one that's been done to death on these pages. I can only say that my ideal International side would be a side populated by players who were born in and grew up wanting to play for the country they eventually play for.

That's my ideal. Others obviously have different ideals and this is far from being an ideal world. Let the real world continue. I can't stop it alone

Sectrefly is right, you're making the assumption that everyone has the same idea of nationality that you do Biltong. I can assure you they don't. I honestly do not understand people frothing at the mouth at this sort of thing. If he's not good enough for your national team - no loss, if he is and isn't getting picked - blame the coach, if he is and was likely to get picked but then leaves to play for another nationality, well then he probably wasn't going to offer the sort of unwavering die-hard pride in the jersey you want.

I still don't know exactly what it is that you hate about this?

It is about identity and pride.

Do you really want to have a national team represented in future by players who played their rugby in a number of countries and because your country has the most money they can buy players through their structures and win world cups?

Why not then just cancel test rugby and have a bidding war to see who will pay the most for the trophy.

Taking "where he learns his craft aside"... why is it that its fine if a guy moves to a foreign country aged 14 and is then capped aged 21... against a guy who moves aged 21 and is then capped aged 27? Is there that much difference bar the obvious, he turns 18 and can vote etc etc.

Lionel Messi moved to Barcelona's academy aged 13... should he have played only for Spain?

How does he qualify Bilts...is he playing in France (ie residence rule)..or is there a French Ancestry?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does he qualify Bilts...is he playing in France (ie residence rule)..or is there a French Ancestry?

Residency

GeordieFalcon

With a name like Claassen I assume he is of Dutch/German ancentry.

Its also one of the oldest names in South Africa from what I've read... going back well into the 17th century so I doubt he has any ancestry of note.

I guess Olly Kohn is an example of it at its worst. I think he said something like "I am proud that I have been selected to play for an international team"but nothing about pride of being "welsh".

I have a feeling it may be too late to stop this sort of thing with countries almost encouraging it with non-qualified quotas etc. The Scarlets have brought in three South Africans this season, with George Earle saying he would like to pplay in the 2015 world cup when he qualifies.

ScarletSpiderman

Exactly... Kohn probably is as welsh as Ronald McDonald. At least Claassen has lived in the country for the last 6 years.

fa0019 wrote:Taking "where he learns his craft aside"... why is it that its fine if a guy moves to a foreign country aged 14 and is then capped aged 21... against a guy who moves aged 21 and is then capped aged 27? Is there that much difference bar the obvious, he turns 18 and can vote etc etc.

Lionel Messi moved to Barcelona's academy aged 13... should he have played only for Spain?

I am not saying who he should play for, I am asking where is the pride when you come from a heritage like that.

But seeing that you are asking, SARU has now made their Age Group JWC team their second "team" which is a good enough guide to say by then a player has shown potential and has learnt his trade.

Biltong wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

The pride of getting picked?

The 'what are you?' question is a very complex one that's been done to death on these pages. I can only say that my ideal International side would be a side populated by players who were born in and grew up wanting to play for the country they eventually play for.

That's my ideal. Others obviously have different ideals and this is far from being an ideal world. Let the real world continue. I can't stop it alone

Sectrefly is right, you're making the assumption that everyone has the same idea of nationality that you do Biltong. I can assure you they don't. I honestly do not understand people frothing at the mouth at this sort of thing. If he's not good enough for your national team - no loss, if he is and isn't getting picked - blame the coach, if he is and was likely to get picked but then leaves to play for another nationality, well then he probably wasn't going to offer the sort of unwavering die-hard pride in the jersey you want.

I still don't know exactly what it is that you hate about this?

It is about identity and pride.

Do you really want to have a national team represented in future by players who played their rugby in a number of countries and because your country has the most money they can buy players through their structures and win world cups?

Why not then just cancel test rugby and have a bidding war to see who will pay the most for the trophy.

We have more money, so this seems an excellent idea to me That's not how I see it. Maybe he went there for money and then said 'You know what, I love the culture, people, weather, the way they play rugby etc etc.' and thought that country was a home to him. It is just possible that people can prefer a country they move to without it being a slight on the country they left. That said, obviously those emigrating to Oz are dead to me

Perhaps he feels animosity to SA for not giving him a chance?

Perhaps he feels indebted to the French for believing in him.

That was certainly the way Kevin Pietersen went. He is easily one of the most talented cricketers of his generation.... would have walked into the SA team but he was being sidelined as a junior and after getting an offer in England he took it. He like Claassen's did his 3 years and then played for England.

Biltong wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

He's not his da.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SixNations/France-call-up-SA-born-Antonie-Claassen-20130211

I'm not sure what that article adds or subtracts from my point.

His father's achievements are not his. His father’s outlook is not necessarily his. He’s his own man. Maybe he feels differently – or not as strongly - about the Boks? Maybe he prefers France to SA?

I think if you make it to international rugby, you deserve to have pride. You are excelling at your chosen career and will therefore earn more money and recognition for doing your job well. He can be proud if he gets capped as he is an international rugby player, a very select group. It's only really an issue if the Springboks were coming calling. If they don't want him, what would you say? Honestly?

Say you're dad was a high-flying executive at Microsoft and you started your career out there except you were kept in a low-level position with little chance of advancement. So you go and work for Google instead. Now Google offer you a big promotion, a chance to improve your salary and standing within your profession. Are you gonna turn around and turn down the position because your Dad worked for Microsoft? You'd be insane! They didn't offer you anything when you worked for them!

You might read this and say "Oh, but thats a career. International Rugby is different." Yeah, it is; for you. You're a fan. The difference between professionalism and amateurism doesn't affect you as directly. This is this man's career.

Antonie Claassen is a professional with a job he can't count on having past his mid-thirties. Sentiment doesn't come into it. He has to think about his career and his family. And nobody even think of coming out with that ridiculous mercenary line, unless you're all self-employed making money doing what you love you probably are a 'mercenary' too. If you're a rugby player, having test caps on your CV is pretty helpful when it comes down to negotiating contracts. Especially if you go to finish up somewhere like Japan.

fa0019 wrote:Perhaps he feels animosity to SA for not giving him a chance?

Perhaps he feels indebted to the French for believing in him.

That was certainly the way Kevin Pietersen went. He is easily one of the most talented cricketers of his generation.... would have walked into the SA team but he was being sidelined as a junior and after getting an offer in England he took it. He like Claassen's did his 3 years and then played for England.

Kevin pietersen was an a&$e when he left SA, he wasn't prepared to work his way up and demanded a spot without performing.

Claassen played for SA in the JWC, he got his chance.

Notch wrote:I think if you make it to international rugby, you deserve to have pride. You are excelling at your chosen career and will therefore earn more money and recognition for doing your job well. He can be proud if he gets capped as he is an international rugby player, a very select group. It's only really an issue if the Springboks were coming calling. If they don't want him, what would you say? Honestly?

Say you're dad was a high-flying executive at Microsoft and you started your career out there except you were kept in a low-level position with little chance of advancement. So you go and work for Google instead. Now Google offer you a big promotion, a chance to improve your salary and standing within your profession. Are you gonna turn around and turn down the position because your Dad worked for Microsoft? You'd be insane! They didn't offer you anything when you worked for them!

You might read this and say "Oh, but thats a career. International Rugby is different." Yeah, it is; for you. You're a fan. The difference between professionalism and amateurism doesn't affect you as directly. This is this man's career.

Antonie Claassen is a professional with a job he can't count on having past his mid-thirties. Sentiment doesn't come into it. He has to think about his career and his family. And nobody even think of coming out with that ridiculous mercenary line, unless you're all self-employed making money doing what you love you probably are a 'mercenary' too.

Representing you country in sportis a tad different when it comes to heritage, pride etcthan representing microsoft.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Biltong wrote:Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

He's not his da.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SixNations/France-call-up-SA-born-Antonie-Claassen-20130211

I'm not sure what that article adds or subtracts from my point.

His father's achievements are not his. His father’s outlook is not necessarily his. He’s his own man. Maybe he feels differently – or not as strongly - about the Boks? Maybe he prefers France to SA?

Sorry I misunderstood your statement, I thoughtyou meant Wynand is not his father.

Ha ha - fair enough. My point is simply that I think heritage is as often a curse as a blessing.

Pro sport is, ultimately, a job.

I don't know how long Claassen has lived/played in France, whether he qualifies through residency or otherwise, but he clearly wants to play at the highest level and I assume he's not likely to represent SA. If he's qualified for France, good luck to him -- it is pro sport, after all.

The problem in this continuing debate is actually in my eyes more subtle. There is a pervading attitude of mostly trying to make something appear so normal so that those who then have real reservations about it, and give voice to it, are told to shut up, stop being so disrespectful to the players who have chosen the route - we all do it, get over it, stop being intolerant.

Now, the idea of International rugby is primarily that we can boast and boo. That's the truth, don't dress it up. We watch International sports because it allows us to feel special or to feel humiliated. The team represents us and US is a distinctive quality that isn't all encompassing; it's localised, it's being from one area, one nation, one identity.

But as players increasingly find new homes in other countries and lend their support to that country prospering in any given sport, they also in the process give that nation bragging rights, and sneer rights, and bravado rights, and cheeky chappie rights to toy with and goad the lesser nations, the nations they've just beaten etc ... hmmmmmm - that's when it becomes a big hmmmmm issue for me.

If it's all right for one Nation - using the services of players from other nations - to crow about potency or dominance etc, etc, then I think it's perfectly okay for people from other nations to bring up the details of where those players might come from. Fair is fair in the game of one upmanship

But that's increasingly frowned upon as intolerance, or bad-sportsmanship, or as denying the players the rights to be seen to represent the nation they've gone to. In other words, the people who would like to boast about national dominance in any given sport get very sensitive indeed when the counter attacks hit and true nationality is brought into the equation.

And so rather than get into sensitive arguments, we all play a dubious game of pretending we don't see the 'otherness' of other Nation's players as long as they play along and don't mention the otherness of ours.

Hypocrisy is a word that keeps hopping up in the debate about when Nationality means so much in high level international sport and yet should mean absolutely nothing to the players playing it and the followers watching it.

If representing your country on the biggest stage in rugby union is merely seen as a profession then Test rugby has become merely a glorified club competition.

Which means pretty soon all pro sports will be seen that way and whether it be pro rugby, olympics or any other sport where you represent a nation is nothing more than just another form of a reality show based on sport.

Biltong wrote:

Notch wrote:I think if you make it to international rugby, you deserve to have pride. You are excelling at your chosen career and will therefore earn more money and recognition for doing your job well. He can be proud if he gets capped as he is an international rugby player, a very select group. It's only really an issue if the Springboks were coming calling. If they don't want him, what would you say? Honestly?

Say you're dad was a high-flying executive at Microsoft and you started your career out there except you were kept in a low-level position with little chance of advancement. So you go and work for Google instead. Now Google offer you a big promotion, a chance to improve your salary and standing within your profession. Are you gonna turn around and turn down the position because your Dad worked for Microsoft? You'd be insane! They didn't offer you anything when you worked for them!

You might read this and say "Oh, but thats a career. International Rugby is different." Yeah, it is; for you. You're a fan. The difference between professionalism and amateurism doesn't affect you as directly. This is this man's career.

Antonie Claassen is a professional with a job he can't count on having past his mid-thirties. Sentiment doesn't come into it. He has to think about his career and his family. And nobody even think of coming out with that ridiculous mercenary line, unless you're all self-employed making money doing what you love you probably are a 'mercenary' too.

Representing you country in sportis a tad different when it comes to heritage, pride etcthan representing microsoft.

Again- thats all too easy for you to say. Your involvement with international rugby is not directly linked to your current/future earning potential and the welfare of your family. You have another source of income, presumably. Antonie Claassen doesn't. He has the luxury of having a job he loves and he probably gets well paid for doing it, but its not a job he can have for the majority of his working life and the amount of money he'll earn in it won't set him up for life. So he has to grab every opportunity that comes his way because after he retires, he's going to have to go after a new career with all the uncertainty implied by that.

Personally, I feel you are being highly selfish in criticising him. It is, at the end of the day, his career- his livelihood. You don't attack anyone else for doing what they need to in their careers. You don't even have the indirect excuse of contributing towards paying his salary as a fan you do with RSA based players given he is based in France.

I'm sure current Springboks feel a great deal of pride in representing their country, as do all internationals. But Biltong, honey, pride ain't gonna pay the bills. He owes you nothing.

Biltong wrote:If representing your country on the biggest stage in rugby union is merely seen as a profession then Test rugby has become merely a glorified club competition.

Which means pretty soon all pro sports will be seen that way and whether it be pro rugby, olympics or any other sport where you represent a nation is nothing more than just another form of a reality show based on sport.

Yeah, welcome to late stage capitalism. It's flawed and materialistic and it doesn't serve the majority of people well. This is the world.

So, if you want, criticise the system. Not the individual trying to do his best within that system. But do you have a better idea? If Rugby Union was still amateur he'd probably be playing League in Australia or something- as would all the best South African rugby players.

SecretFly wrote:The problem in this continuing debate is actually in my eyes more subtle. There is a pervading attitude of mostly trying to make something appear so normal so that those who then have real reservations about it, and give voice to it, are told to shut up, stop being so disrespectful to the players who have chosen the route - we all do it, get over it, stop being intolerant.

Now, the idea of International rugby is primarily that we can boast and boo. That's the truth, don't dress it up. We watch International sports because it allows us to feel special or to feel humiliated. The team represents us and US is a distinctive quality that isn't all encompassing; it's localised, it's being from one area, one nation, one identity.

But as players increasingly find new homes in other countries and lend their support to that country prospering in any given sport, they also in the process give that nation bragging rights, and sneer rights, and bravado rights, and cheeky chappie rights to toy with and goad the lesser nations, the nations they've just beaten etc ... hmmmmmm - that's when it becomes a big hmmmmm issue for me.

If it's all right for one Nation - using the services of players from other nations - to crow about potency or dominance etc, etc, then I think it's perfectly okay for people from other nations to bring up the details of where those players might come from. Fair is fair in the game of one upmanship

But that's increasingly frowned upon as intolerance, or bad-sportsmanship, or as denying the players the rights to be seen to represent the nation they've gone to. In other words, the people who would like to boast about national dominance in any given sport get very sensitive indeed when the counter attacks hit and true nationality is brought into the equation.

And so rather than get into sensitive arguments, we all play a dubious game of pretending we don't see the 'otherness' of other Nation's players as long as they play along and don't mention the otherness of ours.

Hypocrisy is a word that keeps hopping up in the debate about when Nationality means so much in high level international sport and yet should mean absolutely nothing to the players playing it and the followers watching it.

Very good post.

Gave up on this sort of thing long ago Biltong. For me it started with club and region when pro rugby started in 96.

For me the dream was always playing for your region- the blue and white hoops of Auckland. There was an order of things- club Region Country.

Then I saw guys who had come up through the Auckland club scene suddenly playing for the Crusaders, our staunch arch enemy from the 80's.

Welcome to professional rugby.

All bets are off. This is similar and its been happening for years. Maitland is our latest. He stuck loyally with the Saders and played Maori All Blacks until the point came where he knew he would not be an AB. His dream to play international rugby has now been fulfilled, albeit with another country.

I think its more acceptable these days and I'd say he had a good chat with his father and that Wynyard would be immensely proud seeing his son run onto the field for a test match. What father wouldnt?

Us as fans only see this game from a certain point of view. Those playing it at regional and international level have a different take on things. Its not so much an 'us and them' for these guys. Its more 'we're all rugby players= where do I fit in amongst this lot'? What can and do in this game...what do I want to achieve?

For some its being a Bok, for some playing at the international level regardless of where is enough.

A bit off topic but I saw of all things a Drew Barrymore movie about a guy who was nuts for the Boston redsox, He and his zany group of friends lived and breathed the baseball side.

After a night of feverishly supporting his side, boozing on the town, hating the enemy that had just topped his side they came upon some of the redsox players having a quiet meal, wine and a few laughs with members of the side that had just played them and they just couldnt understand how they could do this. It shocked them to the core.

I think the players share a commonality within the game that fans dont. Theyre all the same at a certain level and just as Maitlands decison to play for Scotland has been widely accepted by all so I think will Claasen's- particularly his fathers- theyre both in the same 'group' now- both international rugby players that can share their international experiences.

Notch wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Notch wrote:I think if you make it to international rugby, you deserve to have pride. You are excelling at your chosen career and will therefore earn more money and recognition for doing your job well. He can be proud if he gets capped as he is an international rugby player, a very select group. It's only really an issue if the Springboks were coming calling. If they don't want him, what would you say? Honestly?

Say you're dad was a high-flying executive at Microsoft and you started your career out there except you were kept in a low-level position with little chance of advancement. So you go and work for Google instead. Now Google offer you a big promotion, a chance to improve your salary and standing within your profession. Are you gonna turn around and turn down the position because your Dad worked for Microsoft? You'd be insane! They didn't offer you anything when you worked for them!

You might read this and say "Oh, but thats a career. International Rugby is different." Yeah, it is; for you. You're a fan. The difference between professionalism and amateurism doesn't affect you as directly. This is this man's career.

Antonie Claassen is a professional with a job he can't count on having past his mid-thirties. Sentiment doesn't come into it. He has to think about his career and his family. And nobody even think of coming out with that ridiculous mercenary line, unless you're all self-employed making money doing what you love you probably are a 'mercenary' too.

Representing you country in sportis a tad different when it comes to heritage, pride etcthan representing microsoft.

Again- thats all too easy for you to say. Your involvement with international rugby is not directly linked to your current/future earning potential and the welfare of your family. You have another source of income, presumably. Antonie Claassen doesn't. He has the luxury of having a job he loves and he probably gets well paid for doing it, but its not a job he can have for the majority of his working life and the amount of money he'll earn in it won't set him up for life. So he has to grab every opportunity that comes his way because after he retires, he's going to have to go after a new career with all the uncertainty implied by that.

Personally, I feel you are being highly selfish in criticising him. It is, at the end of the day, his career- his livelihood. You don't attack anyone else for doing what they need to in their careers. You don't even have the indirect excuse of contributing towards paying his salary as a fan you do with RSA based players given he is based in France.

I'm sure current Springboks feel a great deal of pride in representing their country, as do all internationals. But Biltong, honey, pride ain't gonna pay the bills. He owes you nothing.

Yes I am selfish and am not ashamed of it.

Look at the way football does it, players playall over the world, and yet they represent their home nation.

By the same token as we are ready to boast with foreign players in our club teams and pay no heed that the reality of the situation is these teams are not representative of our towns which we are supposedly so precious about, which in itslef is a contradiction if there ever was one, we now say it is OK to have foreigners represent our countires.

That in turn means we can now all change our allegiances because our players play for another nation and therefor we afford ourselves the right to support that team.

It all eventualy means that we just support a team on a whim, with little required in the way of roots, pride, tradition etc.

Taylorman wrote:Gave up on this sort of thing long ago Biltong. For me it started with club and region when pro rugby started in 96.

For me the dream was always playing for your region- the blue and white hoops of Auckland. There was an order of things- club Region Country.

Then I saw guys who had come up through the Auckland club scene suddenly playing for the Crusaders, our staunch arch enemy from the 80's.

Welcome to professional rugby.

All bets are off. This is similar and its been happening for years. Maitland is our latest. He stuck loyally with the Saders and played Maori All Blacks until the point came where he knew he would not be an AB. His dream to play international rugby has now been fulfilled, albeit with another country.

I think its more acceptable these days and I'd say he had a good chatwe're all rugby players with his father and thet Wynyard would be immensely proud seeing his son run onto the field for a test match. What father wouldnt?

Us as fans only see this game from a certain point of view. Those playing it at regional and international level have a different take on things. Its not so much an 'us and them' for these guys. Its more 'we're all rugby players= where do I fit in amongst this lot'? What can and do I want to achieve?

For some its being a Bok, for some playing at the international level regardless of where is enough.

A bit off topic but I saw of all things a Drew Barrymore movie about a guy who was nuts for the Boston redsox, He and his zany group of friends lived and breathed the baseball side.

After a night of feverishly supporting his side, boozing on the town, hating the enemy that had just topped his side they came upon some of the redsox players having a quiet meal, wine and a few laughs with members of the side that had just played them and they just couldnt understand how they could do this. It shocked them to the core.

I think the players share a commonality within the game that fans dont. Theyre all the same at a certain level and just as Maitlands decison to play for Scotland has been widely accepted by all so I think will Claasen's- particularly his fathers- theyre both in the same 'group' now- both international rugby players that can share theyre international experiences.

I think perhaps it is time I give up on this aswell.

I see itdifferently to most and as long as there are benefactors they won't protest a system which is clearly blurring the lines. This is exactly why I gave up supporting aspecific team in theSuper Rugby comp.

Few players actually represent their real unions, they are justgoiong after the money, for me test rugby is the last vestige and if that is sallied then there isn't much more to get passionate about and one will become a casual observer more than anything else.

I don't think people are being selfish in questioning players reasons for deciding which team to play test rugby for, its a legitimate question.

Lets face facts, as a kid that guy would have lived and breathed the springboks. He da was a famed bok captain.

It would be like a son of Tony Blair being elected as a Tory MP... ok bad example.

Then something probably went wrong mid through his early career. He wasn't being picked and to be honest had he stayed in SA he may have been relegated to being a journeyman/retired altogether as he was not getting game time as a youth so made the choice to move abroad to continue his career.

Will he have similar pride as someone like Johan Goosen who ended up playing with his idol Jean De Villiers?? Of course not.

But perhaps there is a greater pride.... he may have felt unwanted, have been told he was never going to make it and most Saffa's probably wouldn't know who he was and he's made it regardless of it.
He can take a lot of pride in moving abroad, making a name for himself from nothing (he probably went on a junior contract aged 23 with zero game time in SA) and going on to be successful and being picked for the French national side.

"If representing your country on the biggest stage in rugby union is merely seen as a profession ..." -- I don't think it is "merely" seen as a profession by most players.

If Wales, for example, were to be represented exclusively or almost exclusively by non-Welshmen or women, I would lose interest. I suspect a lot of Welsh fans would. But I accept that some individuals, through residency or grandparents (or parents), according to the rules, can qualify. Personally, I don't think grandparents should qualify someone. But if someone qualifies on residency, and is committed to a country because the club/region played a huge part in their development over at least 3 years, I think that's okay.