v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 2

The first of 8 last 16 matches was completed yesterday when Lionel Messi took on Roger Federer for a spot in the quarter finals of the v2 GOAT. After taking an early lead Messi looked in good shape to push the grand slam champion all the way, however by lunch time The Fed Express had moved into overdrive and concluded the day with 70% of the vote. Messi exits the competition after seeing off Sugar Ray Leonard, Sachin Tendulkar in the group stages and Rod Laver in round 2. Federer however is our first quarter finalist and will line up in the last 8 against the winner of today’s match up.

And that match is set to be yet another top draw battle, with athletics taking on golf, its Michael Johnson vs. Tiger Woods.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Michael Johnson- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

I was eight years old in 1996 and, as a result, the Atlanta Games of that year are the first Olympic Games I can remember properly - and for any sports fan, that's a serious footnote in your memory. It says much about the greatness of the man I'm writing about here that, whenever I think back to that summer of 1996 and the Olympics, the first thing to enter my head is never the Games themselves, and nor is it a collection of moments. Instead, it's just one name which crops up instantly - Michael Johnson.

It took some nerve - or, you might even say, some well-placed arrogance - to wear those golden running spikes, and it must also have taken a large helping of self-belief and stubbornness to ignore the plethora of coaches who had told him right throughout his college and junior career to abandon his unusual 'duck' style of running in favour of the traditional high knee lift, long strides and pumping arms which we usually associate with sprinting. But both the running spikes and that unique style had me hooked from 1996 onwards and I became determined to find out all I could about the man who came away with three gold medals on the track from those Games.

With the emergence of Usain Bolt in recent times, it's easy to forget that, just ten to fifteen years earlier, there was one man on the track who blew everyone's mind and redefined the parameters just as much as the brilliant Jamaican. In fact, I'd argue that Johnson, in many ways, redefined them even more than Bolt has.

For starters, his dominance of the 400m throughout the nineties must be right up there with the greatest spells of dominance in any one event in history. Before Johnson, whose incredible feats earned him the nickname 'Superman', no man had ever won the 400m title at back to back Olympics. Johnson did this at a canter, taking the gold medal in the one lap event at Atlanta in '96 and at Sydney four years later. He won four successive world titles at that same distance, too, from 1993 right up until 1999. His fifty-four consecutive 'finals' wins in the 400m is, of course, a record - so far ahead of his peers in that event is he, that comparisons are pretty pointless.

But there were more notable 'firsts' in Johnson's career. The 100m-200m double is, of course, a rare achievement, the sort which only the giants of sporting history (Owens, Lewis, Bolt etc) have managed. But do you know what's been an even rarer achievement in men's track and field? The 200m-400m double. Because once more, before this remarkable Texan came along, absolutely nobody had managed to win the two events together at the Olympics - or at any major championships, for that matter. Not content with making history once by doing so at the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson made it two 'doubles' in as many years at the following summer's Olympics. And which man has replicated this feat since? That's right - absolutely none of them.

Usain Bolt's double of the 100m-200m (or even his 'double double' of doing the 100m-200m act at two successive Olympics, a feat which he controversially shares with Carl Lewis) make him one of a few, but Johnson's achievements really do make him one of a kind.

I think it's key to remember, also, that the 400m takes on a very different dynamic to the shorter sprints. Unlike the 100m or the 200m, the 400m discipline takes a different type of training, a large amount of kidology and tactics. There is no element of just running flat out as fast as you can; pacing yourself, the concept of even-paced running, adapting to running two bends ect all make it a different ball game. Genuinely, I feel that Johnson's ability to adapt so perfectly to both events make him a serious contender to be considered the finest track athlete the world has ever seen.

Johnsons' gold medal tally in the 200m (two World Championships, one Olympics) doesn't read quite as staggeringly (but is still only surpassed by a certain Mr Bolt, mind you!) but, as I mentioned above, I genuinely think that Johnson expanded the ideas of what was possible in this event more than anyone else has thus far in his own way. In track and field, particularly in the sprints, you seldom see a world record which lasts more than three or four years, generally speaking. It's amazing what the human body can do when you're setting its every faculty towards a certain mark - for instance, Roger Bannister's four minute mile in 1954 was considered superhuman and, almost, a case of someone doing the impossible, and yet it lasted as a world record for a mere six weeks.

So then, let's keep in mind that Pietro Mennea's 200m world record of 19.72 seconds had stood for a whole seventeen years by 1996, remarkable in a sport which is pitted so often against the clock. At the Olympic trials that year, Johnson edged it out with a 19.66, a fantastic feat in itself, but what he did in the Olympics themselves in that event will stay with me forever. Even as an eight year old, I knew I was watching something remarkable. But it's only looking back that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of Johnson's gold medal winning performance.

Johnson won the gold in a staggering 19.32 seconds, a whole .34 of a second ahead of his own personal best (by an absolute mile the most that anyone has improved a short sprint record since the introduction of electronic timing in the sixties), and .36 ahead of second-placed Frankie Fredericks who, just weeks earlier, had beaten Johnson and was fancied by many to do so again (a shell-shocked Fredericks remarked after the race, "If I'd have known that Michael was going to run 19.32, I wouldn't have bothered showing up."). Ato Boldon, who took the bronze medal, went to Johnson after the race and bowed, later commenting that Johnson's race that night was "fifty years ahead of its time."

Now, I know what you're all thinking. Rather than fifty, the record 'only' lasted for twelve years (still a hell of a long time by track and field standards, of course) before Usain Bolt narrowly beat it with his wonderful 19.30 in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. But as I said before, it's amazing what can be done by the human body when its sole focus is on a time which you have the luxury of shooting for. Basically, if someone can run a 19.32, you know that it's a real possibility and, in many ways, inevitable that someone can eventually go 19.30 or better, like Bolt has. Edging a world record out like that is the norm.

However, totally obliterating one like Johnson did most certainly isn't. With Mennea's 19.72 came the realisation that humans could and eventually would be running in the 19.6 bracket. With Johnson's 19.66 three months before Atlanta came the realisation that maybe, just maybe, we could see a high 19.5 time in our lifespan if we were lucky. Absolutely nobody, however, would have ever dared conjour up the the thought of a man eating up 200m of track in a low 19.3 time. It boggled the mind, tore up all logic and left a world-wide audience, including BBC commentator David Coleman, saying "this man surely isn't human!"

When Bolt broke the 200m world record, there were loud cheers in my house. However, when Johnson ran that 19.32 in Atlanta, there was nothing but a stunned silence, followed by a series of glances which seemd to be asking, 'Did I really just see that?'

And of course, Johnson's 400m world record still remains intact at 43.18 seconds, despite thirteen and a half years having passed since he finally set it at the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Again, it's worth noting that, in track and field, world records that can last a decade or more come at a premium. From the top of my head, I do believe that Michael Johnson is the only man to have set a world record lasting a decade or longer in two individual events since the introduction of electronic timing, and it says a hell of a lot about the man's accomplishments that you have to scroll a fair way down his CV to find a fact as impressive as that!

In all, Johnson stepped on to a podium to collect thirteen medals at either the Olympic Games or World Championships during his career - and ever single one of them was gold.

And as if his towering accomplishments weren't enough, he still manged to show what sportsmanship should be all about in 2008 when, after his relay team mate Antonio Pettigrew admitted under oath that he had used performance enhancing substances throughout the late nineties and early twenty-first century, Johnson voluntarily returned his Gold medal won with Pettigrew and two others in the 4x400m relay at the Sydney Olympics of 2000. In an age where far too many are adopting a relaxed attitude to doping in sport, Johnson's gesture, to me at least, added to his greatness even more, if that were at all possible.

It's a terrible shame that, a certain Mr Carl Lewis aside, track and field athletes have often struggled to receive their dues over in the States, because in Michael Johnson they really did have one of the finest sportsman to have graced the planet. To me, Johnson is everything a sporting great should be.

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by Adam D

So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a "great" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as "the greatest closer in history" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT.

Can only really see an argument for potentially voting for one golfer at this stage of the tournament and that golfer woudl be Nicklaus who still stands as the greatest in his sport.

Johnson was a phenomenon and his 200 metres performance in '96 was the first time I've ever been blown away by a performance on the track (well Johnson in '88 was spectacular but not legal so doesn't count). Bolt has managed that a couple of times since but the image of Johnson coming out of the bend miles ahead of Fredericks and Boldon will live with me for a long time.

Two of my favourite sport stars. I love Johnson and that 1996 200m was as good as it gets, not forgetting him demolishing every field in the 400.

That said, Tiger is or was immense and dominated a sport that is near impossible to dominate.

Tiger wins this.

superflyweight wrote:Can only really see an argument for potentially voting for one golfer at this stage of the tournament and that golfer woudl be Nicklaus who still stands as the greatest in his sport.

Johnson was a phenomenon and his 200 metres performance in '96 was the first time I've ever been blown away by a performance on the track (well Johnson in '88 was spectacular but not legal so doesn't count). Bolt has managed that a couple of times since but the image of Johnson coming out of the bend miles ahead of Fredericks and Boldon will live with me for a long time.

Real tough one this.

I would compare Johnsons 19.32 to Woods' 12 shot demolition of the field at the Masters in '97 when he was only 21. A relative scoring feat he bettered in the '00 US Open caning the best in the world by 15 shots in arguably the hardest of all Majors (12 under in an event the organisers set the course up to try to ensure something around even par wins, second place was 3 over par for example).

Were it Woods v Nicklaus I think I'd plumb for Nicklaus as the Majors benchmark is the one that the majority use to judge greatness (indeed it is Woods main goal to surpass Nicklaus record of 18).

It's Woods v Johnson today and so despite Johnson's supreme ability and astounding record I am voting for Woods. I don't think Woods is overall sporting GOAT (yet, but is still possible in the future) but his contribution to golf and the redefining of that sport could carry him a long way in this competition.

His ability to polarise opinion may well do for his chances too of course!

Michael Johnson, no question.

Is Johnson the athletics GOAT ? Personally I think Bolt has surpassed hm already and I think he is no greater than say Bekele or Rudisha at his events. I mention Rudusha as I think that front run 800 in an Olympic final, breaking a world record, is one of the greatest performances in athletics history, for me the greatest but Im biased I was there to witness it.
That said I think Johnson might just get my vote today but the jury is still out, Super might persuade me otherwise.

I think Athletics is too wide a field to have a definitive GOAT of the whole discipline as it carries 100m to Marathon and you simply can't cover all that ground and dominate all elements of it as an entity.

Johnson though, is without question a GOAT in 200m AND 400m. Plus he's an articulate, gracious, personable and affable person. Everything Woods is not.

You've met Tiger?

Plus, anyone who insists on calling themselves such a preposterous name cannot be a GOAT, but a TW@T

Funny how this tournament is shaping up. I didn't vote for Johnson in either of the first two rounds, yet here I am, voting for him in this contest.

I do think the name calling is childish though, we really ought to behave like grown ups on here

Come on WOIODS win this.. I have to go bluewater with the gf today

so i cant champion him for to much..

Anyone who cant choose between the two..

remember that golf is a highly skillfull sport it is large on participation but also massive on global participation..

And what woods did in his 10 year spell is something unheard of in sport.. he dominated a sport that has never been dominated like that in that sort of time spell. His era was high high quality as well...

forget his shanagnas- its not important..

Also remeber that golf is the true gentleman sport- none of this diving and swearing and you call fouls on your self!!

A game of sheer class and etiquite!! with an immense range of skills..

Come on woodsy

Also remeber that golf is the true gentleman sport- none of this diving and swearing and you call fouls on your self!!

... and yet, Woods is famously potty mouthed.

"That said I think Johnson might just get my vote today but the jury is still out, Super might persuade me otherwise"

superflyweight wrote:

Also remeber that golf is the true gentleman sport- none of this diving and swearing and you call fouls on your self!!

... and yet, Woods is famously potty mouthed.

swearing at others.. golf is full of swearers at them selves!!!! so yes i may have said that abit wrong!!!

Spitting, swearing, club throwing, Yeah, what a GOAT he is.

can't vote for Johnson - as little as i like woods there's no contest here. like comparing a yukka against an oak.

super_realist wrote:Spitting, swearing, club throwing, Yeah, what a GOAT he is.

Footballers spit. Basketball players spit. Swimmers pee in the pool. Almost all sportsmen/women swear at some point, and if you've never thrown a golf club in anger, you don't understand what the game does to you mentally. I'm fine with all three of those things.

Of course I have, but I'm not in the public eye in a "sport" which is supposed to reflect manners and uphold certain standards.

Furthermore, there is no reason for any player in any sport to spit. It's disgusting.

Footballers spit due to running around, which I can see but maybe not Golfers.

You don't have to spit whilst running around either. It's just a disgusting affectation.

super_realist wrote:You don't have to spit whilst running around either. It's just a disgusting affectation.

I use to get saliva build up whilst playing Football and had no choice but to spit.

Hey I agree on spitting being disgusting, but Messi spits all the time and he wasn't taken to task for it yesterday. We can't have double standards in this tournament.

And why is golf supposed to reflect manners and uphold certain standards? It's a competitive game, big money involved, the crowds generally misbehave, it's full of bad sportsmanship...golf isn't cricket or billiards.

Has to be tiger.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:And why is golf supposed to reflect manners and uphold certain standards? It's a competitive game, big money involved, the crowds generally misbehave, it's full of bad sportsmanship...golf isn't cricket or billiards.

What an utterly ridiculous statement. Are you for real?

Competetive and big money involved? Yes of course - but misbehaving fans and bad sportsmanship? You've got to be on the wind up

Some of the fans may be idiots (usually on the other side of the Atlantic) but I can't think of a single incident of a misbehaving fan. And bad sportsmanship? Golf is one of the few sports I can think of where players call penalties on themselves (even cricketers rarely "walk" anymore). I'll discount billiards as that's just a parlour game but trying to compare golf with cricket in terms of sportsmanship it ridiculous. Cricket has plenty of cheating and/or bad sportsmanship in the shape of not "walking", ball tampering, match and spot-fixing and sledging

Golf has had one high profile incident in recent years (though of a fairly low profile player) who cheated with his ball marker, and the latest Vijay farce over deer antlers

Get a grip

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:You don't have to spit whilst running around either. It's just a disgusting affectation.

I use to get saliva build up whilst playing Football and had no choice but to spit.

You could have got fitter and you it wouldn't happen or you could have swallowed it.

You don't see Tennis players, Cyclists, Triathlon runners or 400 & 800 metre runners spitting too frequently, or that dreadful back handed nose clearing thing that footballers love so much and those sports are much more demanding than Football. It's just a needless cultural thing. Completely unneccessary. Seeing someone spit in the street almost makes me sick, especially if accompanied by a gutteral snort preceding the ejection.

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:You don't have to spit whilst running around either. It's just a disgusting affectation.

I use to get saliva build up whilst playing Football and had no choice but to spit.

You could have got fitter and you it wouldn't happen.

Ha, maybe but that doesn't explain why pro's get it.

Cultural as I said. Insecure blokes trying to look hard.

super_realist wrote:Cultural as I said. Insecure blokes trying to look hard.

Maybe to some.

Most, why don't they just swallow it?

super_realist wrote:Most, why don't they just swallow it?

comes back doesn't it?

No. No more than drinking water.

I've run several Marathons in very good times and never felt the need to spit.

Those guys are not even moving for 45 minutes before getting a break.

Why a golfer needs to spit though, is a complete mystery.

Davie wrote:What an utterly ridiculous statement. Are you for real?

Competetive and big money involved? Yes of course - but misbehaving fans and bad sportsmanship? You've got to be on the wind up

Some of the fans may be idiots (usually on the other side of the Atlantic) but I can't think of a single incident of a misbehaving fan. And bad sportsmanship? Golf is one of the few sports I can think of where players call penalties on themselves (even cricketers rarely "walk" anymore). I'll discount billiards as that's just a parlour game but trying to compare golf with cricket in terms of sportsmanship it ridiculous. Cricket has plenty of cheating and/or bad sportsmanship in the shape of not "walking", ball tampering, match and spot-fixing and sledging

Golf has had one high profile incident in recent years (though of a fairly low profile player) who cheated with his ball marker, and the latest Vijay farce over deer antlers

Get a grip

I've been to three golf tournaments, and I will never go to another one. All in the UK, I might add. Drunken shouting, mobile phones going off, constant chatter while players are there, abuse shouted at players, the lot. It made me ashamed to be there, and it happened at all three tournaments I went to. Total disgrace.

And I was comparing golf to cricket in terms of the expectation of standards, not what actually happens. Golf is just a game, cricket is expected to be played in a gentlemanly fashion and in a sportsmanlike way. Billiards too is a game for gentlemen. Golf has never had an aura of expectation around it.

drinking saliva is different to drinking water. I don't think I ever spat during jogging, so maybe it's the stop start sprinting that's the difference?

Azzy, I've no idea what tournaments you went to.

Golf like Billiards and Cucumber Sandwich eating does have an expectation of good behaviour around it.

Players at clubs soon get complained about and disciplined for transgressing acceptable behaviour standards.

Azzy not gonna say how many golf tournies I been to because I csnt tell its alot.. bever once came across what you have witnessed. . Your comments are bizarre

Stella wrote:drinking saliva is different to drinking water. I don't think I ever spat during jogging, so maybe it's the stop start sprinting that's the difference?

In which case, why are the floors of aerobics classes not covered in spit? They are stop start. Tennis is stop start too.

Footballers are just dirty pikeys.

I went to a day of the 2001 Open, a day at the 2003 Open, and a day at the 2006 Open. I've had several offers since but have turned them all down, three of the worst days of my life they were (a friend of mine has good contacts in the golfing world and got me in as a corporate guest).

Bizzare azzy.. thats all I can say... been to loads of cricket footnall rugby and golf..

Love all the different atmospheres. . Golf is very mild in comparison not much of an atmosphete. And behaved fans.. but I wm there to watch the golf and follow my fav playets.. were you in the grandstands or something close to a bar????

Hey football is the worst for behaviour, don't get me wrong. I've been to hundreds of cricket games and not once seen anyone even drop a cucumber sandwich. Impeccable behaviour.

But I hate this pretence that golf is a 'good' sport in terms of spectator behaviour. My three free trips to the Open cost the sport a fan. I stopped playing the game after that last trip, I was so ashamed to have been a part of it all.

I can only imagine he was quaffing champagne in the Bollinger tent for non golfing city types on a jolly behaving in a boorish manner.
Certainly I've never seen that outside the ropes.

I was all over btw. A bit of course walking, a bit in the corporate section, just generally wandering. I've never had a favourite golf player so I wasn't too interested in following anyone around.

Fair enough Azzy, but I really can't see the behaviour of the crowd (unfortunate as I think you've been) as justification for players to behave like louts spitting, club throwing and swearing.

You gave up golf bacause a couple of drunk fans.....
Your baffling me azzy

super_realist wrote:

Stella wrote:drinking saliva is different to drinking water. I don't think I ever spat during jogging, so maybe it's the stop start sprinting that's the difference?

In which case, why are the floors of aerobics classes not covered in spit? They are stop start. Tennis is stop start too.

Footballers are just dirty pikeys.

Bit like me saying all Scots are shi.e at Football and have ginger hair. Stupid hey!

Probably some truth in that, although you can hardly claim England have footballing prowess either.

Aerobic sport, continual or stop start does not necessitate spitting.

mystiroakey wrote:You gave up golf bacause a couple of drunk fans.....
Your baffling me azzy

No, I gave up golf because I had three very embarrassing experiences, where I was part of a crowd of people who were behaving disgracefully. It made me never want to pick up a club again. And I haven't, except to move them to the back of the shed and stick boxes over them.

Anyway, Johnson vs Woods...

I've seen Rugby players spit.

There is a lot of sprinting/fast jogging in Football, which is a little different to Aerobics.

I accept some may spit to make them look hard, especially your big centre back who's trying to intimidate the 5'7" striker but in my experience Footballers do get a build up of saliva.

Do women footballers spit? Never seen it.

Aerobic sport, continual or stop start does not necessitate spitting..

Perhaps it does for some people. Not all footballers spit but perhaps there is a physiological reason for the players that do. I'm sure it happens in other sports (I've seen Andy Murray doing it) but just not televised to the same extent.

Not sure what the problem is anyway - it's just body fluid and if it's not directed at anyone and is spat into the ground, why should anyone care?