v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 2

First topic message reminder :

The first of 8 last 16 matches was completed yesterday when Lionel Messi took on Roger Federer for a spot in the quarter finals of the v2 GOAT. After taking an early lead Messi looked in good shape to push the grand slam champion all the way, however by lunch time The Fed Express had moved into overdrive and concluded the day with 70% of the vote. Messi exits the competition after seeing off Sugar Ray Leonard, Sachin Tendulkar in the group stages and Rod Laver in round 2. Federer however is our first quarter finalist and will line up in the last 8 against the winner of today’s match up.

And that match is set to be yet another top draw battle, with athletics taking on golf, its Michael Johnson vs. Tiger Woods.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Michael Johnson- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

I was eight years old in 1996 and, as a result, the Atlanta Games of that year are the first Olympic Games I can remember properly - and for any sports fan, that's a serious footnote in your memory. It says much about the greatness of the man I'm writing about here that, whenever I think back to that summer of 1996 and the Olympics, the first thing to enter my head is never the Games themselves, and nor is it a collection of moments. Instead, it's just one name which crops up instantly - Michael Johnson.

It took some nerve - or, you might even say, some well-placed arrogance - to wear those golden running spikes, and it must also have taken a large helping of self-belief and stubbornness to ignore the plethora of coaches who had told him right throughout his college and junior career to abandon his unusual 'duck' style of running in favour of the traditional high knee lift, long strides and pumping arms which we usually associate with sprinting. But both the running spikes and that unique style had me hooked from 1996 onwards and I became determined to find out all I could about the man who came away with three gold medals on the track from those Games.

With the emergence of Usain Bolt in recent times, it's easy to forget that, just ten to fifteen years earlier, there was one man on the track who blew everyone's mind and redefined the parameters just as much as the brilliant Jamaican. In fact, I'd argue that Johnson, in many ways, redefined them even more than Bolt has.

For starters, his dominance of the 400m throughout the nineties must be right up there with the greatest spells of dominance in any one event in history. Before Johnson, whose incredible feats earned him the nickname 'Superman', no man had ever won the 400m title at back to back Olympics. Johnson did this at a canter, taking the gold medal in the one lap event at Atlanta in '96 and at Sydney four years later. He won four successive world titles at that same distance, too, from 1993 right up until 1999. His fifty-four consecutive 'finals' wins in the 400m is, of course, a record - so far ahead of his peers in that event is he, that comparisons are pretty pointless.

But there were more notable 'firsts' in Johnson's career. The 100m-200m double is, of course, a rare achievement, the sort which only the giants of sporting history (Owens, Lewis, Bolt etc) have managed. But do you know what's been an even rarer achievement in men's track and field? The 200m-400m double. Because once more, before this remarkable Texan came along, absolutely nobody had managed to win the two events together at the Olympics - or at any major championships, for that matter. Not content with making history once by doing so at the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson made it two 'doubles' in as many years at the following summer's Olympics. And which man has replicated this feat since? That's right - absolutely none of them.

Usain Bolt's double of the 100m-200m (or even his 'double double' of doing the 100m-200m act at two successive Olympics, a feat which he controversially shares with Carl Lewis) make him one of a few, but Johnson's achievements really do make him one of a kind.

I think it's key to remember, also, that the 400m takes on a very different dynamic to the shorter sprints. Unlike the 100m or the 200m, the 400m discipline takes a different type of training, a large amount of kidology and tactics. There is no element of just running flat out as fast as you can; pacing yourself, the concept of even-paced running, adapting to running two bends ect all make it a different ball game. Genuinely, I feel that Johnson's ability to adapt so perfectly to both events make him a serious contender to be considered the finest track athlete the world has ever seen.

Johnsons' gold medal tally in the 200m (two World Championships, one Olympics) doesn't read quite as staggeringly (but is still only surpassed by a certain Mr Bolt, mind you!) but, as I mentioned above, I genuinely think that Johnson expanded the ideas of what was possible in this event more than anyone else has thus far in his own way. In track and field, particularly in the sprints, you seldom see a world record which lasts more than three or four years, generally speaking. It's amazing what the human body can do when you're setting its every faculty towards a certain mark - for instance, Roger Bannister's four minute mile in 1954 was considered superhuman and, almost, a case of someone doing the impossible, and yet it lasted as a world record for a mere six weeks.

So then, let's keep in mind that Pietro Mennea's 200m world record of 19.72 seconds had stood for a whole seventeen years by 1996, remarkable in a sport which is pitted so often against the clock. At the Olympic trials that year, Johnson edged it out with a 19.66, a fantastic feat in itself, but what he did in the Olympics themselves in that event will stay with me forever. Even as an eight year old, I knew I was watching something remarkable. But it's only looking back that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of Johnson's gold medal winning performance.

Johnson won the gold in a staggering 19.32 seconds, a whole .34 of a second ahead of his own personal best (by an absolute mile the most that anyone has improved a short sprint record since the introduction of electronic timing in the sixties), and .36 ahead of second-placed Frankie Fredericks who, just weeks earlier, had beaten Johnson and was fancied by many to do so again (a shell-shocked Fredericks remarked after the race, "If I'd have known that Michael was going to run 19.32, I wouldn't have bothered showing up."). Ato Boldon, who took the bronze medal, went to Johnson after the race and bowed, later commenting that Johnson's race that night was "fifty years ahead of its time."

Now, I know what you're all thinking. Rather than fifty, the record 'only' lasted for twelve years (still a hell of a long time by track and field standards, of course) before Usain Bolt narrowly beat it with his wonderful 19.30 in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. But as I said before, it's amazing what can be done by the human body when its sole focus is on a time which you have the luxury of shooting for. Basically, if someone can run a 19.32, you know that it's a real possibility and, in many ways, inevitable that someone can eventually go 19.30 or better, like Bolt has. Edging a world record out like that is the norm.

However, totally obliterating one like Johnson did most certainly isn't. With Mennea's 19.72 came the realisation that humans could and eventually would be running in the 19.6 bracket. With Johnson's 19.66 three months before Atlanta came the realisation that maybe, just maybe, we could see a high 19.5 time in our lifespan if we were lucky. Absolutely nobody, however, would have ever dared conjour up the the thought of a man eating up 200m of track in a low 19.3 time. It boggled the mind, tore up all logic and left a world-wide audience, including BBC commentator David Coleman, saying "this man surely isn't human!"

When Bolt broke the 200m world record, there were loud cheers in my house. However, when Johnson ran that 19.32 in Atlanta, there was nothing but a stunned silence, followed by a series of glances which seemd to be asking, 'Did I really just see that?'

And of course, Johnson's 400m world record still remains intact at 43.18 seconds, despite thirteen and a half years having passed since he finally set it at the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Again, it's worth noting that, in track and field, world records that can last a decade or more come at a premium. From the top of my head, I do believe that Michael Johnson is the only man to have set a world record lasting a decade or longer in two individual events since the introduction of electronic timing, and it says a hell of a lot about the man's accomplishments that you have to scroll a fair way down his CV to find a fact as impressive as that!

In all, Johnson stepped on to a podium to collect thirteen medals at either the Olympic Games or World Championships during his career - and ever single one of them was gold.

And as if his towering accomplishments weren't enough, he still manged to show what sportsmanship should be all about in 2008 when, after his relay team mate Antonio Pettigrew admitted under oath that he had used performance enhancing substances throughout the late nineties and early twenty-first century, Johnson voluntarily returned his Gold medal won with Pettigrew and two others in the 4x400m relay at the Sydney Olympics of 2000. In an age where far too many are adopting a relaxed attitude to doping in sport, Johnson's gesture, to me at least, added to his greatness even more, if that were at all possible.

It's a terrible shame that, a certain Mr Carl Lewis aside, track and field athletes have often struggled to receive their dues over in the States, because in Michael Johnson they really did have one of the finest sportsman to have graced the planet. To me, Johnson is everything a sporting great should be.

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by Adam D

So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a "great" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as "the greatest closer in history" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT.

Rarely watch it but I did see a couple doing it when I watched an Olympic game.

Azzy - whilst you may have witnessed such behaviour at the Open on the 3 occasions you have been, it does sound hugely atypical hence the reaction.

Yes golf has some boorish behaviour in the crowd, as will any crowd such is the nature of them tbh. I'm fairly sure golf crowds would generally be applauded for their behaviour, especially that portion of the crowd observing the players out on course.

Of the hundreds of cricket games you have been to I am surprised about there not having been any kind of crowd based furore. The beer fuelled behaviour at Trent Bridge on test days is pretty famous (mostly in good humour, but certainly raucous to say the least). That's just what comes through on the telly!

It was initially raised into a reason why Woods (and others like Keegan Bradley) transgress the ideals and acceptable behaviour in golf, and somehow it got into football.

As far as I'm concerned spitting is not only disgusting, but needless.

super_realist wrote:It was initially raised into a reason why Woods (and others like Keegan Bradley) transgress the ideals and acceptable behaviour in golf, and somehow it got into football.

As far as I'm concerned spitting is not only disgusting, but needless.

There seemed a perfectly good reason for it in Brokeback Mountain.

Azzy,
If you get among the golf fans instead of the yobs on a corporate freebie you'll enjoy yourself much more.


I've voted for Woods, really Michael Johnson was terrific but to progress here you'd have to label him as being amonst the top half dozen athletes of all time, yet 99.9% of the people in his own country would never recognise him, or even his name.

But Woods doesn't need the usual inflation of his winning record - he hasn't won 38 tournaments around the world, nowhere close. Most of his "European Tour" wins are the Majors and WGC's that are already included in his PGA Tour wins.
And, how do we know that "he hasn't committed a crime, he hasn't taken drugs to cheat at his sport"? Ludicrous assumption given that he cheats on his family and it's Tiger's way or the highway on course.
By the time his body started breaking down five years ago he looked as if he'd just stepped out of a Michelin Man commercial. Hardly got like that on five fruits and veg and a glass of Lucozade. Not saying he was on PED's, just that there's no evidence that he wasn't and he sure looked like Barry Bonds.

Voted for Woods, very difficult though.

kwinigolfer wrote: really Michael Johnson was terrific but to progress here you'd have to label him as being amonst the top half dozen athletes of all time, yet 99.9% of the people in his own country would never recognise him, or even his name.

.

You don't honestly believe that do you?

Kwini lives in America, has done for years, and as most American's couldn't even point out their own country on a map, it's perfectly reasonable they haven't heard of Michael Johnson, especially as they are predominantly concerned with US centric sports over there.

super_realist wrote:Kwini lives in America, has done for years, and as most American's couldn't even point out their own country on a map, it's perfectly reasonable they haven't heard of Michael Johnson, especially as they are predominantly concerned with US centric sports over there.

Eh? How is Track & Field of not US-centric, they've dominated it for decades.

It's not one of their main sports in a viewing/spectator/television aspect.

American's as a population aren't interested.

Johnson is more likely to be recognised in Belgium that New York. Not sure about 99.9% though

The voting is pretty close.

super_realist wrote:It's not one of their main sports in a viewing/spectator/television aspect.

American's as a population aren't interested.

You could say the same over here but I bet most people have heard of Linford Christie and Colin Jackson who were of the same era as MJ and nowhere near as good.

VTR, you have to see it to believe it in America.

We're a far smaller country/population starved of success at that time, obviously it's easier for us to hear about our successful sportsmen.

Kwini's number may have been a bit high, but 9/10 probably haven't heard of Johnson.

Whether Woods spits or not really has no bearing in this contest.
I'm a golfer and I've been amazed at what Woods done at his peak. He's now no longer at that peak and if he fails to get back to where he was he won't (to my mind) eclipse Nicklaus as the golf GOAT. I think this comp is now at the point where it will be very rare for any sport to have more than 1 entrant in the last 8.

Having said that whilst I see golf as a straight 2 way fight for the GOAT, athletics is far more complex in trying to work out the greatest as their are do many sub disciplines. Hell Zatopek never even got a mention despite winning 5k, 10k and Marathon at a single OGs and in many ways redefining the training regimes for distance running. Getting back to the athlete in question though...Yes you could say 200-400 metre GOAT although Bolt is now moving into that territory.

So it's a tight one that's for sure.

VTR,
I'd still say 99.9% is about right.
Athletics isn't a big deal here at all, outside of a very narrow niche - and within that niche there are lots of actors. They'll've heard of Carl Lewis, for reasons of notoriety, Bill Rogers and Frank Shorter endure, Edwin Moses partly because of his name and various solicitations, Alberto Salazar perhaps and FloJo (because of her self-promotion) and one or two iconic field athletes, some pent/decathletes and the guys who tried the NFL.
But Michael Johnson is so 20 years ago with an anonymous name and publicity in Europe, not here.

There's only one Michael. Sorry.

George?

Well this is very close and I still havent voted. As I thought Supers comments have made me lean towards voting for Tiger.

Kwini i think the point here is that johnson is a brit celeb these days(on the athleteics panel).. So we all know him very well and is a respected pundit..

Still about 36 votes to go if yesterday's figures are anything to go by. Right in the balance.

Very sad then if Americans haven't heard of the great Michael Johnson. I suppose looking at that ESPN list yesterday it is hard to fathom what is in the US sporting consciousness!

Duty281 wrote:Still about 36 votes to go if yesterday's figures are anything to go by. Right in the balance.

I wonder if spazzy hands and the non-event lads are lurking with 10+ votes to tip this one way or the other?

VTR
There's probably an English Basketball player who plays in the NBA, who I and you haven't heard of.
Similar thing.

VTR wrote:Very sad then if Americans haven't heard of the great Michael Johnson. I suppose looking at that ESPN list yesterday it is hard to fathom what is in the US sporting consciousness!

They haven't heard of a lot of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaqaImebd1M

Stella wrote:VTR
There's probably an English Basketball player who plays in the NBA, who I and you haven't heard of.
Similar thing.

true and what about that star stock car racer that none of us had heard of untill he crash and died last year(rip)

tbh many people in this country(england) doesnt even know who luke donald is either!!!(no 1 golfer for a comparitively long time)

mysti,
I know that!
But athletics has next to no TV coverage here, certainly no network coverage to speak of and then only under sufferance as Olympic foreplay.
I'd say athletics here comes below the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, College football, College basketball, NASCAR, golf, tennis, boxing, probably tied with swimming and some winter sports. Likely missed a couple but you get the picture . . . . .

Donald could quite easily walk down my local high street and get no second glances.

It's neck and neck, ladies and gentlemen!

kwinigolfer wrote:mysti,
I know that!
But athletics has next to no TV coverage here, certainly no network coverage to speak of and then only under sufferance as Olympic foreplay.
I'd say athletics here comes below the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, College football, College basketball, NASCAR, golf, tennis, boxing, probably tied with swimming and some winter sports. Likely missed a couple but you get the picture . . . . .

soz yeah !

It's a no brainer for myself. As good as Johnson was in his sport I believe the Tiger of 10 years ago was on a completely different level not seen in any other sport. It's a shame that the usual Woods detractors ( I don't need to point out who) are using reasons other than golf to damage his claim. Very sad indeed.

Stella wrote:VTR
There's probably an English Basketball player who plays in the NBA, who I and you haven't heard of.
Similar thing.

Luol Deng of the Chicago Bulls

Seve_The_Great wrote:It's a no brainer for myself. As good as Johnson was in his sport I believe the Tiger of 10 years ago was on a completely different level not seen in any other sport. It's a shame that the usual Woods detractors ( I don't need to point out who) are using reasons other than golf to damage his claim. Very sad indeed.

Federer, Jansher Khan, Tony McCoy, Ed Moses, MIchael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky, Donald Bradman, Graf, Navratilova, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Pele.

All as dominant as Woods ever was.

I'm going to vote for Johnson because I want the greatest of all time to be a proper athlete not a poxy golfer.

With regards the spitting I'm in entire agreement with you Super. Started by footballers but now unfortunately I've seen cricketers doing it even when just wandering about in the field.

Nothing to do with exercising. Part affectation, part nervous tic all totally unnecessary and disgusting.

23-22

Could be a photo finish.

super_realist wrote:

Seve_The_Great wrote:It's a no brainer for myself. As good as Johnson was in his sport I believe the Tiger of 10 years ago was on a completely different level not seen in any other sport. It's a shame that the usual Woods detractors ( I don't need to point out who) are using reasons other than golf to damage his claim. Very sad indeed.

Federer, Jansher Khan, Tony McCoy, Ed Moses, MIchael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky, Donald Bradman, Graf, Navratilova, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Pele.

All as dominant as Woods ever was.

...and that's why most of them made the last 64 and why some of them are still in...and dare I say it why Woods is still in too. Not sure what your point is Super.

Like I said earlier though, to me Nicklaus is the golfing GOAT and I'll keep my voting powder dry for him. Woods is probably more talented and could do things Nicklaus couldnt but Nicklaus sustained greatness for over a much longer period (over a quarter of a century).i doubt Woods will still be in the game in 10 years time never mind at the top of it. Nevertheless he has left an indelible mark on the game regardless of what you think of him.

Read what it was in response to JAS,
Seve said Nine Chins was dominant like no one ever in any other sport. Which is of course a load of rubbish.

Hibbz wrote:I'm going to vote for Johnson because I want the greatest of all time to be a proper athlete not a poxy golfer.

With regards the spitting I'm in entire agreement with you Super. Started by footballers but now unfortunately I've seen cricketers doing it even when just wandering about in the field.

Nothing to do with exercising. Part affectation, part nervous tic all totally unnecessary and disgusting.

are you trying to say you have never spat after being chased half a mile by a jack russell?

I kick dogs like that.

Only time I've ever spat was when I made the mistake of trying an oyster. Couldn't tell the phlegm from the oyster.

This poll is a tough one, 51-49 to Johnson.

odd that woods draws bolt then Johnson.still should be strong enough for last 8 once the American vote kicks in fully overnight. odd to think Johnson has a realistic chance here of being voted one of the top 8 - didn't see that coming.

Why would the American vote go Woods way?
Yes your average deep south Nas-Car supporting, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, American Football redneck might never have heard of Michael Johnson, but to be fair, they aren't the type that really logs on to a British forum as those sports simply aren't discussed.

Any American or Ex-Pat living in America is just as likely to vote for either, especially as that half wit Hans has been banned.

its funny how the voting goes isnt it..

bolt v tiger was as close as anything- however if bolt beat tiger i think he would have walked johnson!

because woods undoubtedly is given legendary status in the states, whereas Johnson isn't ??!! lets face it, pre slide, woods was the biggest sporting name on the planet. Johnson never had that accolade.

I went for Tiger. In the words of Jay-Z "I go Michael, take your pick, Jackson, Tyson, Jordan. Game six." Meaning? Johnson isnt even one of the top 3 Michaels in the States. Thats reason enough for me.

As for the spitting story.. Well spitting isnt really that bad. Whats truly disgusting is that "snot missile" footballers love releasing.

kingraf wrote:I went for Tiger. In the words of Jay-Z "I go Michael, take your pick, Jackson, Tyson, Jordan. Game six." Meaning? Johnson isnt even one of the top 3 Michaels in the States. Thats reason enough for me.

As for the spitting story.. Well spitting isnt really that bad. Whats truly disgusting is that "snot missile" footballers love releasing.

Tell that to Rudi Voller. I'm sure he loved a mouthful of gob from Frank Riykjard in his mullet.

Tiger.

My problem with this pair is that I don't think either really merit a place in the top 8 GOAT contenders - I'd rate Nicklaus as a better 'GOAT' candidate from golf (even if Tiger has fewer weaknesses in his game - Jack's legacy puts him ahead), while it's difficult to rate track and field athletes because they compete only in quite narrow niches, but my gut feeling is that Johnson (for all his greatness) probably shouldn't be considered the best of the best.

I think I'm just going to go for Johnson because while in sporting terms both were of a similar level, only one of the two isn't a prat that thinks with his little head.

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A majority of Americans over 30 will have heard of Michael Johnson btw - the 1996 Atlanta Olympics was big and for a week athletics was too. The single most memorable moment in the whole olympics was Johnson winning the 200m and destroying the world record in his gold shoes.

Believe it or not the population with an opportunity to have been identified as very talented in either athletics (sprinting specifically) or golf is actually much bigger in sprinting ... kids all around the world run at school, if there was a crazily talented kid somewhere there's a reasonable chance he'd be spotted. In golf that population is far far smaller ...