v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 3

The second match up of the last sixteen produced one of the most closely competed matches of the entire tournament with the voting swinging in favour of one man and then to the other throughout the day. It was Olympic champion Michael Johnson that eventually sealed his spot in the last 8 as Tiger exits the tournament having dispatched Steve Davis, Gabreselassie, and Usain Bolt.

Today’s match pits golfing legend Jack Nicklaus against Jesse Owen.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88Chris05

If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.
For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway.

Well now that the other best ever golfer has been knocked out- I am going to have to go for this slightly annoying character that is jack nicklaus..


all the same

18 majors.. wow!!

what more to say other than that.. none of his other records matter!(which are still significant btw)

PS... if people start banging on about that putt he gave to Jacklin- It was an egotistical thing to do(as if his decision is greater than the whole ryder cup and his team mates!!) ..

anyway as i am backing JN no point me bringing up what i feel are his faults.. This contest is all about sport anyway- not celebrity..(the only reason Johnson one yesterday!)

If it was about celebrity, then the relatively unknown Michael Johnson wouldn't have won would he Oakey.

Stop being bitter. A guy who wears trousers, dress shoes and has a guy carry his equipment has been knocked out. Big deal. Let a proper all round sportsman who combines skill, athleticism, talent and fitness in one win this thing., not a guy who competes in a fat mans game.

Tough draw and one that requires some deliberation before voting.

Gotta go for Nicklaus. Need one Golfer in the last 8.

super_realist wrote:If it was about celebrity, then the relatively unknown Michael Johnson wouldn't have won would he Oakey.

Stop being bitter. A guy who wears trousers, dress shoes and has a guy carry his equipment has been knocked out. Big deal. Let a proper all round sportsman who combines skill, athleticism, talent and fitness in one win this thing., not a guy who competes in a fat mans game.

He isn't little known is he...

He is the most respected celeb pundit during the Olympics held in London ... He has had untold recent exposure.. In a good way ..Woods on the other hand gets untold exposure for the wrong reasons..

This is a Brit board. We know Michael Johnson ..

You think Johnson has a greater media presence than NIne Chins Oakey?

Nine Chins is one of the most famous people in the world.
You'll not find a single person in the UK who has heard of Johnson and not Nine Chins. His win wasn't to do with his BBC punditry at all but his tremendous achievements in 200 and 400m. Simple as that.

Woods failure I believe is primarily down to the general public of opinion as golf, which we as golfers might not see. It isn't very popular or respected Oakey.

"You think Johnson has a greater media presence than NIne Chins Oakey?"


nope didnt say that..(maybe i should have made my original point clearer)

Johnson has a good media presence- woods has a negative one..

The people that post on this board on the whole know both quite well..

I think Johnsons likability has won him out..

If this poll was conducted in the states i think 3 chins would have won by a country mile.. because Johnson has no celebrity status there

And sr if you see the Jack nicklaus support (and i would put money that he will get approx 75% plus of the votes)

you will see that golfers are very much respected.

2 in the top 8 is no small feet!

and JN will be top 4

Oakey, I think it's pretty evenly split on Woods that there are those who like him (to a rather sickening degree) and those who don't like him.

I'm pretty sure Golf is the issue here, and not Woods. Nicklaus is currently running away with it today but against someone from a different era. Not a surprise, but against stiffer opposition he'd struggle just like Baldy Nine Chins did.

By the way, it's 2 golfers in the last 16 not last 8. Probably a few Cucumber Sandwich eaters in there too.

nine chins didnt exactly struggle did he!!

loads of votes

I reckon Nicklaus would beat MJ easily, IF they were to meet.

I think it's a little bit disparaging and patronising to say that he won because of personality. I voted for Johnson because for a fair chunk of the 90's he was utterly dominant across two different distances, was light years ahead of his competitors and produced the one of the most spectacular sporting performances I've ever seen.

I accept that Woods was equally dominant and put in some great winning performances, but for me, I always found his great performances (excluding his first Masters victory) to be somewhat sterile and they did little to inspire me. A great golfer but not the greatest.

It was a touch choice between the two and that's reflected in the closeness of the voting. Most people on here are genuine sports fans and I think you have to give due respect to the fact that most will have voted with the best of intentions.

Doubt it, Nicklaus was always in appalling physical condition. I don't think people will vote on someone being a GOAT who looks like your Grandad.

To try and argue your argument sr.

Tiger beat Bolt.. yes he beat bolt!!

the ultimate athlete in the 64 imo..

bolt is very similar to tiger in that he polorises opinion..

I personally think aged sportsman have more of a chnace in this- why?

Because they have had exposure through the ages..

It's a very difficult decision. I'd probably have both in the top 4, possibly top 3.
I've gone for Nicklaus. I think the context of the '36 Olympics elevates Owen slightly more than he would otherwise be.

Bolt if anything is much much more popular than Johnson, so your point is?

Baldy Nine Chins is out. Get over it, and leave the competition to proper sportsmen.

super_realist wrote:Bolt if anything is much much more popular than Johnson, so your point is?

Baldy Nine Chins is out. Get over it, and leave the competition to proper sportsmen.

Dreary me!

SOrry Stella, I don't believe you can put Golf against other sports.

super_realist wrote:Bolt if anything is much much more popular than Johnson, so your point is?

Baldy Nine Chins is out. Get over it, and leave the competition to proper sportsmen.

that your point that golfers arnt respected is nonsense.. not sure why this is so hard for you to follow..

and that the voters on here know all 3 well- but johnson is liked more on the whole- woods and bolt polorise opinion.. not gonna repeat myself again pal

super_realist wrote:SOrry Stella, I don't believe you can put Golf against other sports.

jeasus one of the most prolific golf posters is knocking golf.

what flipping chance do we have!!

I know you are embarresed by telling the ladies you play golf.. but you really shouldnt be- stop projecting your own insecurites, embrace what you like and be proud of this brilliant sport!

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:SOrry Stella, I don't believe you can put Golf against other sports.

jeasus one of the most prolific golf posters is knocking golf.

what flipping chance do we have!!

I know you are embarresed by telling the ladies you play golf.. but you really shouldnt be- stop projecting your own insecurites, embrace what you like and be proud of this brilliant sport!

Maybe it's reverse psychology to actually boost the golf vote :-/

Oakey, I've always consistently said I don't consider Golf to be a sport, at least one which cannot be held in the same regard as ones which are truly athletic.

I'm delighted Baldy Nine Chins is out. Hopefully someone truly deserving will win GOAT, but it shouldn't be someone who fails the trouser, shoe, tank top and walking test.

you do yeah. I admit that.. but come on- you do seem to devalue it an awfull lot!!!

we are not picking the top athlete..

Has to be the Golden Bear on this one!

mystiroakey wrote:you do yeah. I admit that.. but come on- you do seem to devalue it an awfull lot!!!

we are not picking the top athlete..

When I'm picking the top sportsman of all time I'm not going to pick someone who only walks, wears dress trousers, dress shoes, wears a tank top and who has a lackie to carry his gear as the greatest sportsperson that humanity can muster. We are better than that.

Sorry, to me, they deserve to be in the Top 64, but no further.

Great Sr. no problem you can have your own philosphy. That can be admired. Just in the same way i respect skillz as much as fitness..

However my concern is you havent once actually bigged any one up on this. We dont know who your GOATS actually are.. You seem to just knock sportsman- not back them!

So how about we change this theme -who in your mind are the best?

Fair enough. I'm looking for a complete sportsman who combines all elements.

I don't want to take it off topic so I'm not going to name who I think are the best, but it would be a pretty short list and it wouldn't involve Cricket, Golf, Snooker etc.

fed?

super_realist wrote:Fair enough. I'm looking for a complete sportsman who combines all elements.

I don't want to take it off topic so I'm not going to name who I think are the best, but it would be a pretty short list and it wouldn't involve Cricket, Golf, Snooker etc.

Kop out. Its a bit like when people ask you to name musicians you like after you've slagged everyone else off. Its hardly off topic saying who your own all time sports start would be, if you are happy to converse in depth about spitting Im sure we can live with you throwing another name into this process just like with the skate boarder bloke (who I'd never heard of by the way).

There is a kind of weird irony given your view of the lack of athleticism in golf that the golfer you dislike most is the one that had an obsession with Navy seal training and actually embraced and used physical conditioning to try and gain an advantage which most others have had to end up following. The average top tour pros now are much much better physically conditioned than their peers of 20 years ago and Woods has been pretty much the trailblazer of that trend.

Got to agree with JAS and diggs(luckily some peops can argue in a more articulate way)

That was a complete kop out SR...

I have the opposite problem with this pairing than with yesterday's - I think both deserve to be in the top 8. Greatest golfer ever (maybe less dominant that Woods best, but greater longevity and ultimately a better record, plus the ability to win either from the front or by coming through the field) against the most famous track and field athlete of them all (noting that Owens record during his short career was outstanding even without the added political significance of the 1936 Berlin Olympics).

I think I have to go with Nicklaus. You can raise a question mark about Owens based on the (forced) briefness of his elite athletics career (mainly because he could not afford to remain in amateur competition, and also because of the impact of WW2), whereas Jack won majors over a span between 1962 (so the Palmer and Player era) to 1986 (the era of Ballesteros and Norman), so was at or near the top of his game for an extremely long span.

" (the era of Ballesteros and Norman)"

For my annoyance sake can you add faldo and watson to that era!!

yes perhaps slight overlaps and all that but, neither seve or norman were the most proflific majors winners(and in nomrans case criminally under what he should have)

Was Nicklaus still one of the best Golfers in the 80's or did he just have a good tournament, ala, Hamilton and Curtis?

A real toughie.

For Owens: Probably the most iconic track and field star of them all. A man who's impact went far beyond the world of sport and helped to change perceptions.

Against: Shone brightly but all too briefly albeit not through any fault of his own.

For Nicklaus: The consensus golfing GOAT. Amassed a record 18 majors spanning over 20 years.

Against: Sorry but ultimately the final GOAT cannot and must not be from a sport where physicality and athleticism is a minor attribute - that's just the sporting purist in me.

So overall, mm, I think I'll go for Nicklaus. His sporting achievements outstrip that of Owens and for me that is THE most important factor in this process; fame and transcendence are secondary.



emancipator

he certainly wasnt one of the best golfers in 86- just a good tourny.

Nicklauses end of reign as being the best was probally mid 70's.

due to his ubber skillz he still won a few later on

Myst

I thought about adding Faldo to my list of the mid 80s players - I always consider Watson to really pre-date these guys, as being a star of the late 70s and early 80s (I know that overlaps with Seve a bit, but he was a precocious talent).

Too right about Norman - how did he only manage to win one Major in the 10-15 years where he was close to the peak of his game?

Yes, 86 Masters was a bit of a freak tournament for Nicklaus - hadn't been in contention really for about 5 years, but when he got into the groove on that Sunday afternoon he still had both the skill and mentality to win.

Jack Nicklaus, did more, better for longer. Is the greatest in his sport by the globally accepted benchmark.

Owens transcendence beyond sprinting is more contextual and I doubt that he would garner too much support for a claim that he was the greatest athlete ever, let alone the greatest sprinter ever.

Unlikely to be overall GOAT for many of the reasons others have stated but Nicklaus for me today.

yes i suppose faldo was strange in the way he won his majors later on after an overhaul of his golf swing..

A true great of the game though and just pipped seve in the major department.

I would say that watson was the dominant force after nicklaus tbh and should be included as the main player nicklaus played against at the end of his carrer

When you actually look at Nicklaus's Major record it is quite astonishing, in the 80s (his 3rd best decade) he still managed 13 top tens and 3 wins (a great career in itself for almost anyone else. The 70s though was a decade that I can't see anybody matching. Of the 40 majors contested he missed 1 cut, of the other 39 he missed the top 20 twice and only 2 others was he not top ten. He ended up winning 8.

Over his career he had 73 top 10s in Majors, the 1st one as leading Am at the 1960 U.S. Open, the last one when he tied 6th in the Masters in 1998. That's astonishing longevity in ANY competitive environment.
After he won his 1st open in 1966 he had 15 consecutive top 10s, never worse than tied 6th. In every single Masters in the 70s he was top 10.

Quite incredible that all that was achieved in fields containing Player, Palmer, Trevino, Watson, Norman, Ballesteros, Faldo etc.

Owens was very iconic and a true great of his sport but the sheer volume of Nicklaus's achievements over such a long time mean this one can only go one way.

Personaly Im not sure we can see the longevity of a career in golf as a particular plus point. The fact that the very best golfers can have a 20-25 year career gives them in many ways an advantage compared to other sports because of the relative lack of athletisicm, stamina etc required to be a golfer compared to most other sports.

Diggers we can still compare golfers v other golfers..

Nicklaus was the best in terms of longlevity..

However I think we have to take into consideration that the mental strains of winning and remaining at the top are as tough as physically being fit

True but then you get a guy like Watson who in the right place (a links course) at the right time (when it plays like a links) can still be a major contendor when he is about 60.
I know a lot of people loved this but personally I was glad he didnt win.

I am with you there..

What annoyed me the most about that was i felt he cost LW that open..(rushing the first putt expecting watson to par the last!!)


yep i am still whinning about it.

However i suppose the point proves that watsons mind game wasnt up to it even though his phyiscal play was!!

Much as I admire Owens, I have to agree with what most people are arguing. His breif domination of his sport, and his transcendence of that sport, which is based primarily on historic circumstance, can't measure up to the acheivements of Nicklaus.

Nicklaus is Golf's GOAT so it has to be him.

You can argue a case either way... Longevity v dominance on whether woods or Nicklaus is the worlds greatest ever golfer, but they're the top 2. Owens undoubtedly hugely impressive achievements made the world take notice, but there's an argument he wasnt even the best sprinter in the us at the time, so I find it hard to vote for him in the later rounds of this. The golden bear gets this one for me.

Diggers wrote:Personaly Im not sure we can see the longevity of a career in golf as a particular plus point. The fact that the very best golfers can have a 20-25 year career gives them in many ways an advantage compared to other sports because of the relative lack of athletisicm, stamina etc required to be a golfer compared to most other sports.

I kind of see where you're coming from Digs (yes top golfers may enjoy longer careers than say runners but I think Oakey makes a very valid point too re the mental side of the game.

In Nicklaus's case it wasn't a 20-25 year career it was nearly 40.

Clearly in the base level athleticism sports (running cycling swimming rowing etc) it wouldn't be possible to stay at the top anywhere near that amount of time. There are then the sports that involve (to varying degrees a mix of coordination and skill to mix in with physical athleticism. Again the more physically demanding, the less longevity is likely at the top of the sport e.g. Tennis. With sports where the level of skill & coordination is more important than the physical then the limit to longevity moves upstairs to the mental side (golf falls into that category, each missed 3-4 footer begins to build up mental baggage. By mid to late 40s (earlier for some, later for others) that mental baggage, accompanied by a decline in strength and flexibility caused by the ageing process eats away at confidence and the ability to compete at top level. Very very few have been able to resist that inevitable decline. Watson to a point and Couples (53?) are shining examples of still being competitive despite their age but Nicklaus' mental strength sustained a Major career well past what should have been its sell by date.

When you think about the qualities that the overall GOAT will possess, determination and mental strength will be prominent features in all the final contenders.

Despite what Super says there is a lot more to competitive sport than flat out Physical exertion.

Nicklaus has designed lots of golf courses all around the world

To my knowledge, Owens hasn't designed an athletics stadium.

Check and mate!