v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 6

The GOAT moved into the second half of the last 16 draw yesterday and match 5 presented arguably the biggest match up of the tournament so far with football icon Diego Maradonna taking on Don Bradman for a spot in the last 8. It was Bradman that established a strong lead from the outset and despite a valiant effort from Maradonna who started to pick up vote throughout the day he eventually fell just 7 votes short in a 54%- 56% vote split in favour of the batting legend.

Diego Maradonna exits the tournament having dispatched Tony McCoy, Bobby Jones, Edwin Moses and Daley Thompson on his way to the last 16.

Today’s match up pits Michael Jordan vs. Wayne Gretzky for a spot in the last 8.
Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Wayne Gretzky- Ice Hockey- Championed by Azzy Mahmood

"If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.

In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.

In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky."

jeez, another really tough match IMO: two guys who were (or at least so it seems to me, despite knowing little about their respective sports) undoubtedly the best in their sport, and a fair step ahead above the next best to boot. Tough call to make, and at the moment I litterally have no idea which way to go...

Interesting match-up. In a way I see a lot of similarities between Gretzky and Jordan - both the greatest in their sport at least in the modern era, and whose fame transcended their respective sports sufficiently to be household names around the sporting world despite only really playing in North American 'domestic' competition* (Jordan being the more 'global' name, but in part because it's easier to market basketball boots than hockey skates).

* Obviously the NBA and NHL are the highest levels of their respective sports, my point was that they didn't / don't get huge global coverage.

Strengths and weaknesses of their GOAT cases?

Gretsky's stats are further ahead of the rest of hockey than MJ's are ahead of the rest of basketball. Indeed, Gretsky is up there along with the likes of Bradman and Merckx in respect of the gap to the rest of his sport.

Jordan has a better record of winning titles - Gretsky won 4 Stanley Cups in a 20 year career, while Jordan won 6 (2 x threepeats) in a career lasting 14 seasons(ish). Also, Jordan's record in the finals is outstanding (markedly better than his regular season performances), suggesting he was maybe the more outstanding 'big game' player (not that Gretsky was bad in this regard, just less outstanding).

One slight weakness in Jordan's case is that he walked away from basketball for a season and a half in the middle of his career, with the intention of trying out as a baseball star. There is a back story (the murder of his father) that explains this a bit, but at a distance it still looks like an arrogant and foolish decision.

If there is a weakness in Gretsky's record it is that he failed to win a Stanley Cup after leaving Edmonton (noting that he didin't want to leave, but that the owner needed to cash in on his most valuable asset because of financial problems in his businesses away from hockey). His playing time in LA saw them reach one Stanley Cup final, but his statistics there dropped from the out of this world levels of the Oilers days to down to the levels that mortal superstars could just about match up.

Very tough call for me - perhaps I'll see how the debate develops before casting a vote.

Without doubt, two great, great sportsman, and a fine post from dummy_half showing how evenly the pair of them are matched.

My initial reaction was to go with Gretzky on the basis of his stats being just that little bit more jaw-dropping (in comparison to his peers) than Jordan's, however while I'm no great lover of basketball I was always amazed at the sheer level of athleticism Jordan displayed - he was an utterly phenomenal specimen.

There's basically nothing between them and you need to go to some seriously tragic depths to really uncover any weakness in their claims. All these people complaining of mismatches and underserving candidates in this process should belt up and take a look at this match up!

Gun to my head, I'll go with Gretzky, mostly on gut feeling. Had this one come up for consideration tomorrow, I'd probably go for Jordan, so close are they. Should be ultra-tight, this one.

If I could Id probably go for a draw. Very tough pairing.

I've no idea how to vote on this one.

Yep I'm totally stuck too.

Admittedly I knew very little about Gretzky before this process but having read the article I can see why he is such a strong contendor. Perhaps he shades it on achievements although it's hard for me to mentally quantify those achievements.

In Jordan's favour I expect the basketball talent pool is considerably larger.

Anyway, I'll see what arguements others put forward.



emancipator

Noit that I see a huge amount of importance in the issue, but is the basketball talent pool all that large? It is a sport where size plays a huge factor and that surely cuts out a significant proportion of the human race.

Ice hockey is a pretty big sport globally as well - national sport of Canada and spreading into the northern States, plus being big across much of northern and eastern Europe and Russia.

Not sure there's really that big a difference if you want to look at levels of participation. Probably basketball does edge it, but as sfw points out your chances of making the elite in basketball are significantly restricted if you aren't at least 6' 4" or so.
Hockey probably benefits from size as well, but only in the same way as rugby - biggish and powerful is sufficient (heck, Gretsky was only 6'1" and 13 stone), so doesn't 'self select' to such an extreme level.

Still really torn on these two - both fantastically worthy candidates for the top 8. Blimmin draw (grumble, grumble)...

I've gone for Gretzky. One of the factors is someone could be bothered to do a write-up. Its a very convincing piece and good enough for me.

two goats of different north american sports.

its a coin toss..

the coin went gretskys way

Although it's 50/50, I've gone for Gretsky. The deciding factor? Hans will vote for Jordan.

superflyweight wrote:Noit that I see a huge amount of importance in the issue, but is the basketball talent pool all that large? It is a sport where size plays a huge factor and that surely cuts out a significant proportion of the human race.

spoken like a true super flyweight. Albeit, one who comes in at cruiser at the minute. There aren't enough sports where being short and porky and middle aged is an advantage. Shame, as i would almost certainly take it up.

From a pure sporting achievement perspective i lean to gretzky, but from the talent pool and transcending perspectives its hard to see past jordan. Some reflection needed.

Basketball is to some degree self selecting physically, but it has the 'jumpers for goalposts' equivalent to it in the states, and other countries, that football has over here.

As for talent pool It's been mentioned a lot, but how do you define it. Opportunity/desire to play? actually play?... if so recreationally? or competitively? or as a career? There is a huge amount of self selection in most sports, physically and motivationally that limit the numbers actively taking part. There aren't many people who are 100m specialists at athletics clubs, or who comepte internationally. But everyone did it at school, the ones who weren't fast enough would turn to 200...400 etc. Sure it presumes training and dedication, but if you were good enough you'd probably want to join your local athletics club and take it from there. If i had the ability to be the best sprinter in the world, i suspect i'd have found out. I'd say the 100m is probably the largest talent pool - from one perspective - there is. But you only actually do it if you're good enough and dedicated enough.

Against this, in the US for example, the money is in other sports. We boxing fans lament the lack of decent US heavyweights, they get talent drained to other sports, that (amongst other things) are easier to make more money in... just as many US sprinters will get picked up by American football scouts.

There is no one measure for talent pool, but contrarily to what some have said, I'd suggest popularity of the sport is a key ingredient as its an indicator of desire. The sports i watch are generally the sports i have played and/or would want to play... if i was good enough.

So by my 2 measures it's bolt or pele, and 1 of them has gone.

superflyweight wrote:Although it's 50/50, I've gone for Gretsky. The deciding factor? Hans will vote for Jordan.

Surely the question is not who Hans will vote for, but how many times?

I'm still contemplating using Myst's coin toss approach to picking between these two.

superflyweight wrote:Although it's 50/50, I've gone for Gretsky. The deciding factor? Hans will vote for Jordan.

That's an excellent point - glad I went to Gretsky. Hans is no doubt composing another cut and paste masterpiece as we speak. Probably just needs to add the applause at the end and will be posting his pro-Jordan drivel shortly.

B Ball v ice hockey. Some draws thrown up, potential goat v potential goat one day then Nike air Jordan vs his holiness pope wg iii. Both greats in their field but nowhere near the all time title for me.

Damn my non srr voting ways in the spaghettigate match up...

Tossing about it as I type coin tossing a la mysti of course.

Jordan. It's Jordan.

(No coins were tossed in the making of this conclusion, Jordan is my call today)

Can we get this on the main page as a sticky?

Round five is still there.

Wait, wait, wait, why isn't this thread on the global announcement section? Is there a conspiracy against Jordan going on here?

Well I voted for Gretzky. Why? He had a write-up.

Michael Jordan is one of only a select few who I would consider voting for over the few greatest footballers.

If you're stuck on the vote I suggest you remember how great Space Jam is

I think Gretzky had picked up a protest vote from the boxing board because Jordan whipped SRR's ass not once but twice.

Diggers wrote:I think Gretzky had picked up a protest vote from the boxing board because Jordan whipped SRR's ass not once but twice.

by whipped you mean two votes then yes, and a deciding factor in this close match was to put a end to the stupid jordan nut hugging and saddos creating accounts, the sooner he's out the better for the competition as a whole so yes i voted for wayne

I find it easier to simply just vote for the one I prefer, crazy idea I know.

Diggers wrote:I find it easier to simply just vote for the one I prefer, crazy idea I know.

you would think so but so far has clearly shown that not to be the case, neither are truly worthy as the atg's in my book anyway. atg north Americans maybe

Gone for Gretzky for the sole reason I find Ice Hockey far more entertaining to watch and he is unquestionably the greatest there has ever been, seems a pointless vote as Jordan will win regardless.

I think the problem, well not a problem as such just the way it is for me , is that its almost impossible to pick an overall all time great based on data, its pretty much subjective to a large extent as the data always means more to some than others and every sports criteria for greatness differs slightly.
So at the end of the day I think Id have a top 5 or so I couldn't really split and Jordan would be one if them.

problem with the american sports for me is that quite a lot are not played world wide, basketball has improved a lot in that aspect recently but in jordans day he was basically the best player in his country (all be it a very large one, i dont see any Chinese table tennis stars in this comp). how many non american greats can you name in the nba (Tim Duncan?? and thats stretching it)

americans do have a slight advantage over many though, and of course thats the great american hype that is there media. nobody does it better, and do think the likes of jordans profile has benefited massively from this. if jordan was any other nationality i dont think we would be having this debate despite his talent, certainly wouldnt have been featured in massive movies.

goat for me is someone who has played and mastered a sport that is played throughout the world, someone who we at least know has had a lot more competitors and still came out on top, i dont see jordan as that.

credit though because without him i doubt basketball would have grown anywhere near as much, but that alone is not enough for me

I dont think it has to be global though basketball is becoming very global and the NBA much like the PGA has many overseas stars. There just has to be a big talent pool and hundreds of millions of people play basketball. I mean if its about being global we have to rule out Bradman as only England and Australia with its tiny population back then were really competitive.
I mean even with football you have a slight global issue, until pretty recently the worlds great sporting superpower, the States hasn't cared about it. China and India don't have any history in the sport. Don't get me wrong it's still the most global team sport but its far from universal.

It is rare indeed that The Main Event Lads find ourselves lost for words, but some of the comments on this thread have left us speechless in a way we have not experienced since we first saw university freshman, number 23 Michael Jordan single-handedly clinch the 1982 NCAA title for North Carolina state with a scintillating, soon to be trademark, final seconds winning shot.

With the greatest of respect to Gretsky - a man we know personally and rate highly as an individual and a sportsman - he would be the first to admit that his only truly worthwhile achievement is his daughter Paulina. Stanley Cups and goal records are all very well, but if you can't transcend your sport then you can be no GOAT.

For all those who have tried to besmirch Jordan with the claim that basketball is somehow not a global game: one of our brethren lived in Hong Kong throughout the 90s Decade of the Bull, and he remembers well how you couldn't go anywhere without seeing Jordan's image staring back at you. With the possible exception of Jackie Chan (scandalously not included in the original 64), MJ was the most recognizable man in Asia. Incidentally, this member of our collective merely laughed when asked if he remembered 100ft Wayne Gretsky billboards looming over The Canton Road.

Michael Jordan turned 50 last Sunday (you're not alone in exclaiming - we too thought he was ageless). His birthday was met with a wild outpouring of emotion throughout the world. Families gathered around dinner tables to share their favourite MJ-emories, pundits penned breathless articles reminiscing about his genius, and television channels ran endless 'Top 10 Jordan dunks' compilations on loop. It felt good to remember what the world has lost, and will never see in the flesh again. Typically, ever the professional, Jordan himself spent the day preparing for his second successive beat-down of Salty Ray Robinson on these very forums. Greatness doesn't take the day off.

You may be interested to know how Gretsky spent his 50th birthday - you wouldn't have remembered otherwise. The sad truth is he spent it alone, endlessly lighting and relighting the candles on his self-made cake and forlornly searching for 'Happy Birthday' songs on youtube to blow them out to. Unlike the Golden Bull, poor Wayne's big day was ignored - see this illuminating article for confirmation...

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/26/wayne-gretzkys-50th-birthday-ignored-as-quiet-dispute-with-nhl/

(no need to read past the title - the rest of the article merely goes over the sad scenes of his birthday in greater detail)

As you can see this contest can only really go one way.

Do we need to list his 6 NBA Championships? The fact that he was Finals MVP for all 6? As dummy_half rightly highlights there has never been a better Money-game sportsman: when the stakes were highest Jordan too rose to ever more impossible peaks. How about his 5 NBA MVP awards? His unprecedented record of being a 10-time NBA scoring champ? Or the quote from the great Larry Bird, having just witnessed Jordan hit 63 points against his Celtics - smashing the Playoffs record: 'It's just God disguised as Michael Jordan.'

But as always when you're talking about the very best, statistics, hell even words, just don't cut it. You had to see him play. See his dominance over both sides of the court. See him running at opponents with his tongue eternally poking from his mouth in concentration. See him fly. Because Michael really could - there is a reason people simply can’t say Jordan without preceding it with ‘Air’. He possessed the preternatural gift of human flight – he would hang, as if on the shoulders of angels, not just in space but in time too – languidly lingering on air, as the flashbulbs burst from all directions, then plunging downwards only once satisfied everyone had got their photo.

The below is actually a video...



MJ was a genius, and along with Roger Federer, is one of only two men in this competition genuinely capable of defying the laws of physics. ESPN ranked him the greatest North American (and by extension, the greatest. Full stop) athlete of the 20th century - we trust 606 will do the same. And though we see His Royal Airness is a couple of votes behind at the moment, we have no doubt he will make his usual fourth quarter surge when our American cousins arrive late in the night. Typical Jordan to keep us entertained, even when assured of victory.

Expecting him to get around 15 votes in the night then....

hans you wrong un...

I hope the mods keep a very close eye on the voting. MJ's boyfriend might see the need to swing a couple of extra votes his way (like before!).

well if Jordan wins this competition he'll have faced some pretty stiff opposition along the way, what with SRR followed by Gretsky, tough draw

I'm still a bit undecided on this one TBH...

Like many others have said this was one of the hardest decisions we have had to make thus far and I have been on the fence and flip flopping all day. However on the back of Hans' rousing defence of MJ my decision is finally made.

Congratulations Wayne.

What if it's all a ploy by SH to get us to vote for Gretzky?

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:It is rare indeed that The Main Event Lads find ourselves lost for words,

More's the pity

That would take the kind of self discipline and cunning machiavelli would be proud of, I'll take my chances that a bloke who pretends to be several blokes to impress a bunch of people he will never meet does not really have that in his locker.

Rowley wrote:That would take the kind of self discipline and cunning machiavelli would be proud of, I'll take my chances that a bloke who pretends to be several blokes to impress a bunch of people he will never meet does not really have that in his locker.

True that.

The poll should be stopped at midnight today.

It should be a 24hr poll so that all timezones can participate.

emancipator wrote:It should be a 24hr poll so that all timezones can participate.

Yes, I agree.
But just not this one.

what a strange character you are Lovey! If anything I think this poll needs to go on longer than 24 hours. Look how few votes we have compared with usual because it hasn't been made a sticky! I've voted for Jordan - but only because that was my old man's mother's maiden name

Although these two are the absolute masters of their sport, but 16 seasons in a contact sport like the NHL, sways my vote towards Gretzky.

Can anyone give a bit of analysis as to the size of the talent pool each guy was up against. Seems to me the most logical way to resolve goat debates between sports ...

soooooooooooo what happens now....

Gee here comes Michael Jordan again he picks up 5 votes to Gretzky's one in the last 90 minutes.

And make that Jordan 7 to Greztky's one over two and a half hours.

Make that ten votes to Jordan over 4 hours compared to Gretzky's one.

how the heckk..

yeah as if this site gets american posters later on.. i know a couple on the golf boards- however they post at quite normal times anyway- so they would have voted way before...

hans or whoeever this is is a wrong un. I thought it was funny to start with- but now its getting odd


however Mods all we had to do was ask every voter to post something on the board!!

Its not just the timing is it- its the lack of posts when the votes happen.

by the way- if these are just legitimate posters.. And they dont contribute they dont deserve to vote!

Its kinda obvious how this is being done-- ever heard of facebook!!

all Hans has done has got his yanky mates on FB to make accounts up and vote..

he threatened this at the very start of the comp!! and he has carried it out!