Leicester Tigers v Saracens - 20:00 Sat 23rd Feb

On Saturday 15th September, 41k people headed to Wembley hoping to see a thrilling encounter between these teams. Instead they got a turgid affair with any attacking intent spoilt by numerous handling mistakes. Both teams were terrified of playing with the ball as if they did not drop it, they found the ref tended to favour the defending team at the breakdown. Neither team deserved to win - so it was fitting that the game ended in a draw.

The hardy soulds who head to Welford Road this saturday night - for a match moved to accomodate the TV people - will be hoping for something better. While it may suit TV to have a nerve jangling ending such as the match last season that took place between these two during the 6Ns window, personally I hope we can seal a victory earlier than the 84th minute.

Both teams will be affected by International call-ups. With England announcing an unchanged squad yesterday Tigers will be missing Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Thomas Waldrom, Ben Youngs, Toby Flood, Manu Tuilagi (and Castro with Italy). Sarries will be without Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell, Brad Barritt, Chris Ashton & Alex Goode.

Injuries as always have an impact at this stage of the season with Louis Deacon possibly be added to an injury line-up that last week included Niall Morris, Steve Mafi and Bobo Stankovich. I think these latter 3 may be fit enough to feature - but with Croft expected to play we may see Mafi feture another week.

My suspected Tigers line-up:
Ayerza, Hawkins, Mulipola, Slater, Kitchener, Croft, Salvi, Crane, Harrison, Ford, Thompstone, Allen, Smith, Morris/Hamilton, Tait
Reps: Stankovich/Brookes, Balmain, Chuter, Andrew, Deacon B, Young, Bowden, Murphy

PS ref is JP Doyle.

LondonTiger wrote:PS ref is JP Doyle CR@P.

Fixed that for you. No charge.

Agree about the Wembley game. One of the worst games I have seen for a while. Both Saracens and Leicester were shockingly poor.

Didn't help that Farrell had one of his worst performances with the boot.

LondonTiger Saracens are also likely to be missing Brown,Gill,Wyles and possibly Brits.

I am not at all optimistic.

Biggest absentee will actually be Vunipola and this is where I think Leicester will look to target and hurt Saracens. I expect the inexperienced Auterac to start and unfortunately I think the Tigers will eat him alive.

If the unheralded LI scrum can get the better of the Saracens scrum missing Gill and Vunipola then certainly the Leicester scrum can. Plus obviously Leicester target scrums.

The Exeter game showed what the Vunipola-Stevens combo can do but with Vunipola missing it's certainly advantage Leicester.


From a Sarries perspective I want to see us targetting Ford and Tait. Pressurise these guys I think will be key.

I think the only fair result from this match would be a draw

Hopefully 0-0

Seconded. No self-interest here at all. None whatsoever. Just think that would be the "right" result.

I doubt that the crowd will be inflated to 10000.

There will be a lot of empty seats though. Due to the kick-off my family season ticket may see 3 empty seats - unless my brother forgets to tell his ex-wife that he is taking his sons.

Lancaster has released Mouritz Botha, Will Fraser, David Strettle and Joel Tomkins back to Saracens.

Probably because he owes Farrell Snr a favour or something

Jimpy wrote:Lancaster has released Mouritz Botha, Will Fraser, David Strettle and Joel Tomkins back to Saracens.

Probably because he owes Farrell Snr a favour or something

You would have wanted them starting or on the bench for England?

Can't have it both ways. It's not as if the likes of Vunipola,Farrell Jr,Barritt,Goode and Ashton are being released.

Yeah, I suppose so.

My suspected Saracens line up is dependent on who is still injured. The main debate is who will be full back and who will play 1 and 2.

1.One of Gill/Smit/Auterac
2. One of Brits/Smit/George
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick
5.Botha
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Joubert
9.De Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Powell
13.Tomkins
14.Short
15.Ransom (if Wyles is not fit)

16.One of Gill/Smit/ Auterac
17.Du Plessis
18.One of Brits/Smit/George
19.Hargreaves/Kruis
20.Melck
21.Wigglesworth
22.Mordt
23.Maddock

Ransom was very impressive last week, I hope he is included again this weekend.

Any news on Burger's injury beshocked? I know he's just re-signed, but wondering if there's a return date flying around?

I agree. Ransom looked very good. His break in particular was outstanding.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-breaking-news/7462/new-saracens-deal-for-jacques-burger/

Rugby paper seems to think Burger is targeting the LV semi vs Sale in 3 weeks.

3 weeks would be great. It's been ages since we've seen his 'fro gracing the field.

Indeed. He's got a fight on his hands getting back into the Sarries backrow though!

Interesting that in last months Notts vs Bedford game Lewington dragged Ransom down with a try saving tackle, went milimetres away from scoring from an intercepted Ransom pass as well as fending off the ex-England under 20s full back in order to offload for the first try of the game. Yet Ransom will see AP action this weekend whilst Lewington will play for Notts, new backs coach please!

Can't believe someone not only scheduled this game for the international window but then allowed it to ko at 8pm, every season ticket holder I know is 50/50 about going at best.

Ai, you've got what Fraser as the incumbent 7, Melck behind him, Saull 3rd, and Burger coming back soon too? Pretty decent options there!

formerly known as Sam wrote:Interesting that in last months Notts vs Bedford game Lewington dragged Ransom down with a try saving tackle, went milimetres away from scoring from an intercepted Ransom pass as well as fending off the ex-England under 20s full back in order to offload for the first try of the game. Yet Ransom will see AP action this weekend whilst Lewington will play for Notts, new backs coach please!

Can't believe someone not only scheduled this game for the international window but then allowed it to ko at 8pm, every season ticket holder I know is 50/50 about going at best.

That's just the fate of injuries I guess. Shame for Lewington. He'll get his time eventually.

Actually I think Lewington will sign for Notts this summer and from there another AP side. Why we are playing Hamilton who is out of form and off to Japan ahead of him is beyond me.

Leicester Tigers (v Saracens, Welford Road, Saturday 8pm)
15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Scott Hamilton
13 Matt Smith
12 Dan Bowden
11 Adam Thompstone
10 George Ford
9 Sam Harrison
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 Rob Hawkins
3 Logovi'i Mulipola
4 Ed Slater
5 Graham Kitchener
6 Tom Croft
7 Julian Salvi
8 Jordan Crane

Replacements
16 George Chuter
17 Kieran Brookes
18 Fraser Balmain
19 Brett Deacon
20 Richard Thorpe
21 Micky Young
22 Matt Cornwell
23 Mathew Tait

Saracens
15 Chris Wyles
14 James Short
13 Joel Tomkins
12 Adam Powell
11 David Strettle
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick (c)
5 Alistair Hargreaves
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

Replacements
16 John Smit
17 Nick Auterac
18 Petrus du Plessis
19 George Kruis
20 Justin Melck
21 Neil de Kock
22 Nils Mordt
23 Duncan Taylor

That is a pretty strong looking Saracens team beshocked, managed to avoid an inexperienced prop playing.

From a Tigers point of view, good to see Croft continuing his comeback though would rather have seen someone else playing over Hamilton. Can see the backs struggling to create a lot in this game, going to be close as always with hopefully home advantage getting us over the line

Yes killer938 got to say I was nervous with plenty of potential injury absentees but looks like all of them are fit. Probably because it's vs Leicester.

I am pleased with the XV though the bench isn't the strongest. I hope that Mordt and Taylor's services are not necessary.

Brits hasn't been in the best form. I hope playing Tigers encourages him to raise his game for the occasion.

Powell-Tomkins centre partnership is still a bit raw.

I am optimistic though of course this is going to be a tough game.

How has Mullipola been doing at tighthead?

Is Croft particularly match fit?

Really like the Tigers' backrow and lokc pairing.

Strong looking Saracens squad. Good to see young Auterac getting some first team action recently. Where the hell is Jamie George?

beshocked wrote:Yes killer938 got to say I was nervous with plenty of potential injury absentees but looks like all of them are fit. Probably because it's vs Leicester.

I am pleased with the XV though the bench isn't the strongest. I hope that Mordt and Taylor's services are not necessary.

Brits hasn't been in the best form. I hope playing Tigers encourages him to raise his game for the occasion.

Powell-Tomkins centre partnership is still a bit raw.

I am optimistic though of course this is going to be a tough game.

How has Mullipola been doing at tighthead?

Is Croft particularly match fit?

Croft is match fit, but yet to play a full 80 since his return. Part of his re-introduction to regular rugby is an on-off-on weekly schedule, in that he'll play one week and rest the next. Not sure how long it's planned to last.

bluestonevedder Brits and Smit have the experience. Like at Tigers it's tough for youngsters to break in - generally injuries are what create the opportunities.

Saracens so far have not had an injury crisis at 2.

Fraser and Wray got their opportunities because of the backrow injury crisis. Ditto Farrell Jr at 10. Jamie George hasn't had the same lucky breaks.

Also I think the frontrow in particular is a more difficult place to bed a player because of the importance of the set piece.

Good points beshocked.

Do you think George might benefit from moving on to another a club? He's reaching the age where he could really start making an impact with regular first team rugby, rather than getting splinters? I know some time as an understudy is excellent for progression, and who better than learning from Smit and Brits, but isn't it time to consider a move?

Even Tom Youngs at Leicester took a while to supplant Chuter. Even Cole with Castro etc.

Quite possibly but the question is where. I suppose it also depends on the rumour of Smit leaving. If I was Jamie George I would say to the coaches I need more gametime or I'll leave. He's only 22 though. Frontrowers generally have longer careers than backs.

These young guys need the gametime but sometimes it's tough to say how quickly they should go or not.

Not every player is going to rise to international recognition as quickly as a Manu,B.Youngs,Farrell Jr or North.

Just seen the teams. I have to say that Sarries should be very upset if they do not win this fixture.

Sarries for the win.

Bit gutted about Ransom but otherwise a good team. Tigers again look a mixed bag, strong pack but do any of the coaches give a toss about the backs?

yappysnap wrote:Sarries for the win.

Bit gutted about Ransom but otherwise a good team. Tigers again look a mixed bag, strong pack but do any of the coaches give a toss about the backs?

What do you expect them to do? There away with their international teams.

True but Harrison, Hamilton and Smith all look pretty average while Thompstone struggles in defence and Murphy is on his last leg. Ford so far has been massively under whelming and Bowden has show nothing of the brilliance he displayed at Irish.

Now missing Manu, Flood and Youngs won't help that but they're hardly the cause.

yappysnap wrote:True but Harrison, Hamilton and Smith all look pretty average while Thompstone struggles in defence and Murphy is on his last leg. Ford so far has been massively under whelming and Bowden has show nothing of the brilliance he displayed at Irish.

Now missing Manu, Flood and Youngs won't help that but they're hardly the cause.

your being pretty harsh to be fair, I'll give you Hamilton but both Harrison and Smith i'd disagree. Murphy is getting on a bit, which is why he isn't playing loads of games this season, but he's still class and will run lines that breaks anyone's defense (including the quins).

Regarding Ford, recently his form has dropped. But from your comments your saying he's been rubbish all his career??!?! you smoking or drinking anything tonight?

beshocked wrote:Even Tom Youngs at Leicester took a while to supplant Chuter. Even Cole with Castro etc.

Quite possibly but the question is where. I suppose it also depends on the rumour of Smit leaving. If I was Jamie George I would say to the coaches I need more gametime or I'll leave. He's only 22 though. Frontrowers generally have longer careers than backs.

These young guys need the gametime but sometimes it's tough to say how quickly they should go or not.

Not every player is going to rise to international recognition as quickly as a Manu,B.Youngs,Farrell Jr or North.

I really have no idea what people expect from George. Every time I've seen him including at U20 level where our guys often look good, he's looked absolutely average. He looks poorly conditioned, lightweight at carrying for his size, not particularly mobile (not compared to his club colleague Spurling for example). Granted his throwing looks decent. I have zero expectations that he'll be a top player but I suppose he's still young.

Can people tell me why he's so highly regarded other than he got bigged up by Smit and other colleagues a while back? Saull got a massive recommendation from Hill but he's never looked up to the physical side for me.

Yappy, Thompstone struggles under the high ball but in terms of physical defence he is very good, a big hit picking off the Ospreys counter saved a try and tye game at the Liberty. Only Varndell and Wade have scored more AP tries (I think) and he didn't even start the season as first choice.

Smith is a reliably good utility back, strong, quick and committed. Offers similar to what Jon Clarke used to at Saints. A helpfully underrated player outside of Welford Rd.

Hamilton is passed his best and I can't understand why we haven't brought Lewington back from his DR at Notts with Morris injured.

Harrison has probably the best pass in the league but lacks the ability to control the game. He's improving with a bit of game time and I think the coaches are hoping Mele will be a good mentor for him next season as Harrison has a big boot on either foot and I've seen him kick nicely for goal. Currently he is a bit average but not all young 9s peak as early as Benny.

Bowden is struggling to adapt (not unusual at Tigers in the first season) and injuries have not helped. Ford's confidence has been badly effected by his points kicking issues. He is a classy player but has looked so short of confidence and sometimes distracted (pressure from his dad to head to Bath vs pressure from Tigers to committ long term). I wonder if Bowden will kick for goal? Personally I'd let Harrison do it and the 10/12 combo concentrate on their jobs.

Even Tom Youngs at Leicester took a while to supplant Chuter. Even Cole with Castro etc.

This is Tom Youngs second season as a hooker at Tigers. Before that he'd signed at Notts to learn his trade. I think people are just surprised George hasn't been rotated in to get a bit more experience.

I guess we'll soon find out whether the backs can create or not, Saracens are probably the toughest challenge for any backline in the league to play against.

Remember there's no shame in an honourable draw gents.

Fingers crossed for a gale crossed with a deluge to come along and make it a 3-3 draw. I was in one of those once, against Milfield 3rds, I think.

Ah heavy wind AND rain, true club rugby weather.

Just started to snow here in Leicester guys.

Despite the snow its hardly bad conditions, just cold. Not too much wind and not heavy

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Despite the snow its hardly bad conditions, just cold. Not too much wind and not heavy

Should be fine, snow isnt heavy at all and might not last till tonights kick off. Hopefully the pitch won't freeze with the late kick off.

It'll be heavy under foot and bitterly cold tonight. It has been all day.

Christ...try of the season from Tigers second string backs.

George Fords career needed that.

Ford's kicking has been pretty dire (was it two or three missed pens that were in my range let alone pro flyhalf range) but ball in hand he's been excellent.

MOM so far is Geordan Murphy, he's scythed through the Sarries defence about a half dozern times, made a couple of vital tackles and put in what Nick Evans described as an "incredible pass" for the Tigers wonder try. The guy is sheer class and pre match gave an interview where he said he might stay on a season. That would be great news!

MOM is not from Tigers! Murphy may look back but they are getting humped now.

Looking at the two benches, you can see why.

Nous, impact from the bench and organisation in defence are all things Tigers lacked in the second half but Sarries had. As Tigers tired Hodgson steered Sarries into the right areas of their field and Sarries intensity blew Tigers away.

Late penalty try and two yellow cards for Sarries as Tigers turn it on too little too late.

Questions over Tigers use of the bench and initial squad selection remain.

Sarries were brilliant in that second half.

Just got home after a depressing drive south. Fantastic second half by Sarries saw me leave a few minutes early (ie after Wyles try) to get a head start on getting away. Only now that I realise we got an LBP and Sarries had two players sin-binned for trying to prevent the LBP with cyncial play.

Good game, but that is now twice in a week that we have lost such games. A TBP win for Wasps tomorrow and we drop to fourth. I hope that Ford has his kicking boots on next week, as the way Farrell limped off (anyone know what the problem was?) I suspect Lancaster may not release flood for next week.

RE: Farrell, Lancaster said it was just a knock and he'll be fine.

Is penalty try now Tigers top try scorer for the season?