Leicester Tigers v Saracens - 20:00 Sat 23rd Feb

First topic message reminder :

On Saturday 15th September, 41k people headed to Wembley hoping to see a thrilling encounter between these teams. Instead they got a turgid affair with any attacking intent spoilt by numerous handling mistakes. Both teams were terrified of playing with the ball as if they did not drop it, they found the ref tended to favour the defending team at the breakdown. Neither team deserved to win - so it was fitting that the game ended in a draw.

The hardy soulds who head to Welford Road this saturday night - for a match moved to accomodate the TV people - will be hoping for something better. While it may suit TV to have a nerve jangling ending such as the match last season that took place between these two during the 6Ns window, personally I hope we can seal a victory earlier than the 84th minute.

Both teams will be affected by International call-ups. With England announcing an unchanged squad yesterday Tigers will be missing Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Thomas Waldrom, Ben Youngs, Toby Flood, Manu Tuilagi (and Castro with Italy). Sarries will be without Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell, Brad Barritt, Chris Ashton & Alex Goode.

Injuries as always have an impact at this stage of the season with Louis Deacon possibly be added to an injury line-up that last week included Niall Morris, Steve Mafi and Bobo Stankovich. I think these latter 3 may be fit enough to feature - but with Croft expected to play we may see Mafi feture another week.

My suspected Tigers line-up:
Ayerza, Hawkins, Mulipola, Slater, Kitchener, Croft, Salvi, Crane, Harrison, Ford, Thompstone, Allen, Smith, Morris/Hamilton, Tait
Reps: Stankovich/Brookes, Balmain, Chuter, Andrew, Deacon B, Young, Bowden, Murphy

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is penalty try now Tigers top try scorer for the season?

Think so with 8, but from memory 3 have been like that, offences in open play, 4 from scrums and 1 from a maul pulled down.

In the first half Ford kicked from deep in the 22 (just in front of me in goldsmiths), Hargreaves I think failed the charge down but then decided to smash Ford in the face with his fore-arm. Was this picked up on TV?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is penalty try now Tigers top try scorer for the season?

lol, it wouldn't surprise me although Thompstone has got to be pretty close.

LT, Ford was taken out more than once after the kick but neither JP or hos officials seemed to be looking for it.

I thought there might have been a pen and a yc for the more obvious shoulder and no arms after Geordan's second half break and pass to Hawkins.

The whole cliche of two halves was definitely obvious here!

Got to say well done to Tigers for their 2nd try. Contender for try of the season.

Geordan murphy showed that he's still a class act.

Mixed bag from Ford.

Croft looked like he is starting to find some of his previous form. You should be pleased by the amount of turnovers. I think you got 7.

The Sarries bench really made a difference - especially De Kock and Kruis. De Kock upped the tempo and pace of the Sarries attack. Kruis added some decent carrying power.

The breakdown battle really turned on it's head as well.

Sarries guys who had poor first halves started to make good headway like Wray and Fraser.

Tomkins as a proper 13 is starting to show his potential.

I still don't see where Tigers are going to find a 15 to take over from Murphy. Filling his boots will be tough.

It's interesting what yappysnap said in a previous post about the backline.

Tomkins,Strettle,Wyles and Short were given the opportunity to show what they could do.

All in all a loss but not the end of the world. A bit disapponting that Tigers were so obviously in control and let it go. I suppose a LBP during the international window against Saracens isn't a bad return really.

Plenty more rugby to come and with Tigers returning to full strength in mid March, i'm quite confident of a home semi-final.

Jimpy Tigers weren't obviously in control in the 2nd half. Saracens upped their intensity and tempo to a level Tigers had no answer to.

What surprised me is that with that experienced Tigers pack couldn't rally.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy Tigers weren't obviously in control in the 2nd half. Saracens upped their intensity and tempo to a level Tigers had no answer to.

What surprised me is that with that experienced Tigers pack couldn't rally.

Well done for stating the bleeding obvious. But, Tigers were most definately in control for the 1st half, which is what I meant, and it meant that they let it go in the second...

You say experienced pack, well I suppose it wasn't half bad, but with the likes of Cole, Castro, Parling and co missing, it was hardly a 1st choice scrum.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy Tigers weren't obviously in control in the 2nd half. Saracens upped their intensity and tempo to a level Tigers had no answer to.

What surprised me is that with that experienced Tigers pack couldn't rally.

Sarries had dynamic replacements to bring on and freshen things up - the impact of more than half the pack being replaced by guys just as ggod as those leaving should not be underestimated. Cockerill kept the starting pack right to the end - and frankly they were knackered.

Tigers backs were a lot more creative than Yappy reckoned they would be.

Murphy looked brilliant, the rest of the backline were pretty much like I said, average Prem players. Ford had some brilliant touches but was then also poor, but then he is very young still and that's to be expected.

Well done Sarries, your youngsters in particular were hugely influentual in the second half Wray, Kruis, Fraser, Tomkins all stood out and out played their opposite numbers.

Oh and btw, after that performance I think Sarries are in prime position to make the final and win it.

Scary stuff to watch at times, Sarries scoring tries and a try bp!!!n

yappysnap wrote:Murphy looked brilliant, the rest of the backline were pretty much like I said, average Prem players.

As 5 of the other 6 were all second choice players - that is about what you expect surely?

Jimpy you still had two England Saxons 2nd rowers, two props like Mulipola and Ayerza, surely your first choice backrow? I am not denying that of course your absentees are important but you have decent strength in depth in the pack.

Plus remember you can't start all 4 of Castro,Ayerza,Cole and Mulipola at the same time!

It's in the backs where the loss of Allen,Manu,B.Youngs and Flood leaves Tigers a bit exposed.

Thanks yappysnap. It's nice to see the side perform like that. It's frustating when they can do that against a side like Leicester but struggle to rack up the points vs the weaker sides.

Beating Saints,Leicester,Quins away but losing to LI and Worcester away. It's odd.

Londontiger Saracens hardly had the most stellar bench - the likes of Taylor,Mordt and Du Plessis are not big names. Kruis and De Kock did make a big difference though.

Beshocked,

Kruis, Melck, Auterac and Smit all made a huge impact coming off the bench against a tiring Tigers pack. For 50 minutes I thought we did really wel up front, but really struggled for the last 30.

The flip side is if we meet in tegh semi final, then we can bring on Mulipola, Castro, Slater and Waldrom at the same time.


Sarries were sublime in the secondf half and desrved winners.

LondonTiger true but our side should be stronger too. Plus benches can work both ways. Sometimes it can stop momentum. Especially in a tight game. E.g. a new player comes on and makes a mistake with their first touch because they are not up to speed.

Thanks. I think Tigers will certainly be in the mix and could well still get top 2.

As you say it wasn't your full strength side but that's what the squad is for.

Quite funny that these guys like Kruis and Auterac have South African sounding names yet they are not.

Yep, was happy at half time but the second half was very impressive from Sarries, though must admit my memory is a little hazy after watching all 3 matches in the pub and celebrating the England win (made all the more sweet as I work in France and so could show my face today at work).

On the plus side, as beshocked has already mentioned, Croft seems to be getting better and better. Not a huge surprise as game time is obviously what he needs but still a relief and great to see. Just wonder how long he will have to keep doing the week on, week off schedule.

Strangley Tigers may do better with a stronger Sarries line-up.

the pack does not get much stronger really (Brown makes a difference) but the arrival of Farrell, Barritt and Ashton could hinder Sarries attack and make the game stodgier.

Killer true.

LondonTiger Vunipola makes a big difference too. He's been our form loosehead prop this season. His raw power vs Exeter was clear.

Plus with potentially Burger back in a month or so.....

If Tomkins doesn't start at 13 then yes the game gets stodgier. His influence was obvious.

Defensively Brown and Barritt have huge influences.

Depends completely on what the coaches do - they need to realise that Farrell Jr is a 10. They need to bench him or Hodgson.

It's pretty obvious. Some positions both sides are more reliant on.

Leicester can absorb prop absentees better but for example full back,fly half and centre the options aren't quite as clear cut.

With Saracens losing Barritt and Tomkins would leave them exposed there. Equally injury to Stevens and Vunipola would leave frontrow options pretty bare.

How's Tom Croft going since his return? Will he be in Lions contention or more likely for the tour to Argentina?

All in all I think it was a fair result. I went to the game expecting Tigers to be thrashed. Not a plesent thought but when your missing 13 players against a very strong Sarries team I was beshocked at how we dominated the 1st half. I started to believe... then a sharp bump back to reality in the 2nd half. We just had no answer to their SARU funded international bench coming on

Leicester can absorb prop absentees better but for example full back,fly half and centre the options aren't quite as clear cut.

Down Cole, Castro and Stankovitch we were a tad short of options. Even so I was rather annoyed that Ayerza was left on despite clearly cream crackered when the mobile ball carriers Brookes and Balmain were on the bench.

Tigers missing players:

1. Castro/Stanko
2. T Youngs
3. Cole
4. Deacon
5. Parling
6. Deacon
7. Mafi
8. Waldrom
9. B Youngs
10. Flood
11. Benjamin
12. Allen
13. Manu
14. Goneva
15. Morris

How's Tom Croft going since his return? Will he be in Lions contention or more likely for the tour to Argentina?

He still looks classy. Might make the Lions with Lydiate and Ferris injured as there's a definite spot available and good form towards the end of the season could seal it.

The irony for Crofty getting the Lions call up would be that he was one of the stand out players in the last tour but only got that chance because Ferris was injured.

I think I'm right but I could be talking a load of Hersh... memory not what it was you know

Metal Tiger wrote:The irony for Crofty getting the Lions call up would be that he was one of the stand out players in the last tour but only got that chance because Ferris was injured.

I think I'm right but I could be talking a load of Hersh... memory not what it was you know

He went on tour because Quinlan got banned for illegal contact with the eye area playing for Munster. He got in the test side in part due to Ferris injury. I cannot see him being able to make a case for iclusion for the Lions unless Tigers win the HEC. There are too many back row players in form right now.

I think you're spot on there. Poor old Ferris seems to be eternally injured. I would be stunned if Croft was picked over the other options though (Wood, Robshaw(at 6 to make way for a "fetcher"), Jones, The Ginger Scot, Brown or Chris Henry).

Damn you LT!

I have to agree that it is very unlikely croft getting a spot on the plane. He certainly has the talent as we all know, but out too long injured and no where near enough game time to get back his form. Not to mention no international appearances.