Courtney Lawes

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Am I the only one who thinks he's just quite Poopie?

Commentators go on about him 'being an athlete' and extremely physical, but he only puts big hits in on scrum halves and backs alike, not great in the tight, not great in the loose (see missed tackle on Fofana) and his ball carrying is equal to a beanpole.

I'm not a rugby genius so probably have missed it but what exactly does he do that everyone seems so fond of?

EDIT: according to ESPN's stats in the first half he's missed 4 tackles. That's shocking for any player let alone a lock-come-flanker

Lawes is clumsy not dirty

TJ wrote:FES - I thought it was a significant change in him the last couple of years. He really seemed to stop being such a penalty machine and loosing his temper on the field. That took him IMO from a good player to a great one as he eliminated that weakness from his game

Was Johnson ever a penalty machine?

Wouldn't have called him a penalty machine personally, but he did have one or two disciplinary issues and the odd suspension.

He was a tough uncompromising player with an edge to his game. It's what made him such a great player. He was no Danny Grewcock!

I don't see discipline as an issue for Lawes. To move from being a good international player to a great one, he needs to work on (a) running the lineout and stealing opposition ball, and (b) his tackle technique, so that he's not solely trying to knock seven bells out of the opposition, but also focused on turning over the ball, or holding it up.

Since 2008 Lawes has received a total of 3 yellows in his premiership and international career (can't determine whether those were for foul play or technical infringements), and cited once for the Ledesma incident in 2011 by an IRB panel that said he had an "excellent disciplinary record", deeming the incident "reckless" and "low end".

mbernz wrote:Since 2008 Lawes has received a total of 3 yellows in his premiership and international career (can't determine whether those were for foul play or technical infringements), and cited once for the Ledesma incident in 2011 by an IRB panel that said he had an "excellent disciplinary record", deeming the incident "reckless" and "low end".

Quite. That actually makes him one of the most well-behaved players around (especially for a second row). It's odd how people get the wrong impression of a player.

Or just have little knowledge of rugby.....

If someone wants to believe something they'll find a way to convince themself no matter the reality.

markb wrote:If someone wants to believe something they'll find a way to convince themself no matter the reality.

We see that every day here on 606v2

I am surprised at those stats. Wonder if his penalty count is low as well? 18 caps one yellow one citing is it? I just seem to have seen him involved in too many unsavoury incidents.

Its not a question of wanting to convince myself of anything. I actually want to see him playing well and last year I had him down as a lions partner for Gray :-) Part of it is frustration as I think he is in danger of not living up to his potential.

It is funny the impressions we get of folk that may not be justified - I see this in others and perhpas its what I have done here

Johnson was never dirty,he was hard with a short fuse sometimes.,ask robbie russell

sickofwendy wrote:Johnson was never dirty,he was hard with a short fuse sometimes.,ask robbie russell

I know - It was his weakness his short fuse as he could be wound up into giving away penalties but by the time of the world cup he seemed to have conquered this. a great player

With a very dry sense of humour.Such a shame how his reign worked out,he should never have kept wells and ford on board.He gave a fair chunk of this squad their spurs and we wouldnt be where we were know if he hadn't of backed certain players(young's,Cole and tuilagi etc).

Lawes clearly had a bad game for England against France, particularly defensively. From what I've seen of him in the past that defensive failing is unusual though. Lancaster said before the game "defensively he is one of our best players", and I've always been impressed by his workrate in defence, often one of the top tacklers and fighting really hard to get straight back up into the defensive line once he's made a tackle, ready for the next one, notching up several in a similar number of sequential phases.

A few people have said that he's always looking for the big hit, and there may be some like that, the ones that people would tend to put up on youtube, but again most tackles of his I've seen he's working in the defensive line as part of a pair, quick off the mark and doing his best to tackle very low on the legs, stopping and holding them before the gainline with someone like Wood coming in straight after to compete for the ball.

On a side note from the weekends games if Lancaster wants a second row in the EPS who can cover the back-row Ed Slater is looking very good for Leicester! Two good tries at the weekend plus a strong season all round. He's a big lad who gets himself around the field putting in dirty work and is a strong carrier. He's can play 6 and 8 as well if wanted.

That said I'd still keep Lawes in the squad as a second row at the moment. Slater could be a good replacement for Clark as someone who's young and versatile however.

He has that Percy Montegomery look about him... i.e. 1 min he can do something pretty impressive, the next he does something rather appalling. I still think he could sacrifice some of his speed for a litttle extra bulk.

Could you ever imagine Jonno, Thorn or Bakkies ever getting KO'd on a tackle, having the ball ripped from his grasp etc. Stuff the kodak hits on 14st scrumhalfs.. another 10kg on him will make him into a much tougher forward. This is rugby not basketball.

Getting KO'd in a tackle and having the ball ripped are not weight issues, they are technique. It's experience and concentrating on his core skills that will make him a better player, an extra 10kg will do very little. I also agree with Alcombe in that when he's playing well his line speed in defence round the fringes, snagging attacking players low and quickly is one of his best attributes. when he's won motm awards it's generally been for his defensive work in that regard.