back row for the lions

First topic message reminder :

Is it just me or does the back row selection for the lions the hardest postions to pick, even with the injured players.

Robshaw
Sean O'Brian
Sam Warburton
Tipric
Tom wood
Steven Ferris
Kelly brown
Jonnie Beattie
toby faletau
Dan lydiate
Jamie heaslip

Any others I have missed and add your opinions for and you they should be picked and shouldn't

Rennie did outplay Pocock - the main reason we beat them

Nope he didn't and yes Wales lost to Australia how ever amount if tines and yes that's Australias main team not the mix between their 2nd And 4th string players which Scotland played.

You need to learn a bit about rugby. Did you actually watch the game?

The best way to nulify Pocock is make him work.

I never will be or never have been Phillips biggest fan, but all the while he passes so slowly away from the breakdowns he give the Ozzies a chance to reset and boom Pocock is all over the ball again, slowing it down and the cycle continues.

Blair and Cusiter recycled the ball so quickly in Scotland's games against Australia and it was the difference.

Pocock is a great player but it's Genia who really pulls the strings for Australia. Ireland beat Australia in the RWC because the Irish backrow (Ferris take a bow) really put Genia under all sorts of pressure. The Welsh backrow and Phillips exerted nowhere near the ammount of disruptive pressure in any of the games hence lost the test matches.

I'm not one for Welsh bashing, my dad would be very upset. They are my second team but Phillips is one of your greatest strengths but more often than not is your greatest weakness... anyway back onto the backrow topic.

Yea they play a second string team with pocock in it because he needed fitness. And I also know alot about rugby as iv played at the hightest levels available to someone like me, coached by some of the top coaches to have played in Wales unlike most of the people on here couch potatoes

Radge
surely talking about Phillips on a thread about back row forwards is on topic

SOB
Robshaw
Faletau

Honestly don't think it is as hard as people make it out to be.

Robshaw maybe no traditional 7, but IMO that is a mythical, rather fashionable concept and instead you have three players who work hard and each offer well-rounded skills.

Although rather out of form, you may want Heaslip in there as a lineout option.

And also I agree Wales biggest let down against the bigger teams is Phillips as my favourite scrum half was always peel

welshboii15 wrote:Yea they play a second string team with pocock in it because he needed fitness. And I also know alot about rugby as iv played at the hightest levels available to someone like me, coached by some of the top coaches to have played in Wales unlike most of the people on here couch potatoes

Yeah 'cause I have never played rugby before.... here's a suggestion mate, argue the point instead of making personal insults.

Slagging me off instead of the point I'm making is a sure fire way of losing the argument. Saying Scotland played 2nd string teams is a bit unfair considering players like Pocock, Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Horwill etc all played.

Sure they were missing Beale (through injury) and a few others but noone gave us a chance before the games on either occasion. We were also blooding youngsters too, Grant, Welsh, Laidlaw, Scott, Tom Brow, Hogg and others all with under 6 caps.

welshboii15 wrote:Yea they play a second string team with pocock in it because he needed fitness.

You're right, WelshBoil, Scotland should absolutely have done something other than playing the team in front of them.

In 2010, Australia had their entire first team out. The reason we know this is because it didn't change from playing one home nation to another.

In 2012, Australia had Slipper, Moore, Timani, Sharpe, Dennis, Pocock and Higgenbotham in the pack (all of whom started in the preceding Tri Nations) and Genia, Barnes, Ioane, Harris and Morahan in the backline (very much the form choices at the time, Beale and O'Connor being injured).

You may have gathered by now that I'm suggesting quite strongly you could not be more wrong.
But it's your thread, feller, so peace out.

Shifty wrote:8 Sean O'Brien
7 Robshaw
6 Ryan Jones

My pick

You must have just read my mind. Are there any other out and out no.8's available?

Faletau is finding some good form and Morgan looked good before injury. I do like the contrast between them to.

Beattie is another out and out 8

I must admit I really couldn't decide. Maybe we need to see how these lads react to the pressure of the last two rounds.

Harley has been a great find, Robshaw "Mr Reliable", though I am not convinced he is as good a player at 7 as the other options like Tipuric or Steffan Armitage. Brown is not a seven, SOB isn't really either.

Blindside we have two great men on the injury bench, not sure if they will get back in time for contention, otherwise Tom Wood, Kelly Brown and Ryan Jones have all been superb.

At Eight it is between Beattie and Toby Faletau at the moment. Heaslip is not at his best, Morgan on the injury list like Lyds and Ferris. Maybe Vunipola as an outsider...?

Not hitting the form that maybe they should list is decent too, Denton, Warburton, Haskell, as mentioned Heaslip, still time to prove themselves though.

Currently tempted by Robshaw, Tipuric and Faletau

maestegmafia wrote:I must admit I really couldn't decide. Maybe we need to see how these lads react to the pressure of the last two rounds.

Harley has been a great find, Robshaw "Mr Reliable", though I am not convinced he is as good a player at 7 as the other options like Tipuric or Steffan Armitage. Brown is not a seven, SOB isn't really either.

Blindside we have two great men on the injury bench, not sure if they will get back in time for contention, otherwise Tom Wood, Kelly Brown and Ryan Jones have all been superb.

At Eight it is between Beattie and Toby Faletau at the moment. Heaslip is not at his best, Morgan on the injury list like Lyds and Ferris. Maybe Vunipola as an outsider...?

Not hitting the form that maybe they should list is decent too, Denton, Warburton, Haskell, as mentioned Heaslip, still time to prove themselves though.

Currently tempted by Robshaw, Tipuric and Faletau

Blimey.....Sam who?

O Brien has played himself out of contention in my view. The 'Maori side step' on Halfpenny in the Wales match, the ridiculous penalty against Scotland when he'd lost his scrum cap and was lucky not to be carded. The yards he makes can be nullified with good tackling technique as he's top heavy. He has little football and for a big guy you'd think he could terrorise rucks and mauls more than he does.

Has to be

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Faletau

for now but it's still in the melting pot of course

Do you think though maybe we are building up all these players that are playing in the 6 nations what happens if they go back to their club and the form just goes and their not the players they were in the tournament, do you pick them because they have had 5 or so good games and a half a dozen or so bad what happens then

Rennie won the most turnovers in last year's 6 Nations, guess that makes the rest of the open-sides pretty gash then.

2012 Six Nations XV by numbers

Unfortunately he's not fit so isn't in contention, same goes for Corbisiero, Lydiate, Barclay, Croft, Ferris, O'Connoll or Bowe.

So far I'd say Wood, O'Brien and Faletau are the only nailed on tourists in the back-row. I'd like to see Armitage involved ahead of Tipuric if they don't view O'Brien as an out and out open-side.

I think France's performances - 3 matches where they definitely finished as the weaker side - is giving quite a lot of support to Lancaster's view that fitness in the Top 14 is not geared towards an 80 minute game. We will have more evidence from the HEC knockout stages. If Steffon plays an absolute blinder, then he may be in contention.

I think it's a bit harsh to lump Corbs and Morgan in with Lydiate, Croft and Ferris. Both have played at international level, and played well, this season, and have injuries that should see them back sooner rather than later. Corbs' knee is a worry for the long term, but Morgan definitely has a good chance to tour.

welshboii15's point about club form has some merit. It would be interesting to know what posters think their players' club form is like. I can only really comment on Robshaw, whose club form is monotonously excellent. Quins are invariably a better side with him on the pitch. Barring injury, he will travel.

A coach will always take past form and reputation into account when picking squads sometimes it comes off others not.

So players such as Lydiate, Ferris, Croft and POC will be in the reckoning if they get some club games behind them.

Can someone who knows explain Steffon...Iknow like Delon he went out o f favour, but I thought Lancs was the type to take on a challenge e.g. Haskell if he thought theplayer was worth it, I often hear about Steffons performaces - don't follow him - so wonder why he is not in the squad

beefy,

There are always players that for some reason beyond our mortal reasoning never fit in with coaches plans.

For me its Delve, he would have been in my Welsh side everytime but its not just Gatland has ignored him.

Look how long Back was out of favour for being considered too small, I am guessing Steffon is suffering from the 'no players playing overseas will be selected policy'.

Gotcha thanks, aren't Wales supposed ot have one of those?

100%beefy wrote:Gotcha thanks, aren't Wales supposed ot have one of those?

People say it was Gatlands law but he never said it was a stead fast rule. What he did say that for players abroad to be considered they must be regular first choice players with their respective team and despite Jenkins, the ones currently in the squad are all first choice withntheir respective teams.

bedfordwelsh wrote:beefy,

There are always players that for some reason beyond our mortal reasoning never fit in with coaches plans.

For me its Delve, he would have been in my Welsh side everytime but its not just Gatland has ignored him.

Look how long Back was out of favour for being considered too small, I am guessing Steffon is suffering from the 'no players playing overseas will be selected policy'.

Except that with Lancaster the reason will almost certainly be a sound one backed by evidence. I think so far he's hinted at two points: firstly, the Top 14 don't release players for the full international window or for RFU training periods, so unless Steffon's contract has specific provisions for England release, he's only going to be available part time. Given the squad ethos and commitment that SL is trying to build, that is actually an important consideration. Secondly, Lancaster has said that he's looked at Steffon's (and other France based players') fitness scores, and they aren't what he's looking for. As I said above, I think this means they are prioritising power over the ability to play at full pace for 80 minutes. Given the way England play, if he doesn't have an 80 minute engine he's not going to fit the gameplan.

Thirdly, when the squad he has is fit, Lancaster has a back row that is working well and looks the best balanced that England have had for 10 years. Why disrupt that? That one, of course, is not an issue for the Lions - but the first two are, especially as the Lions tour leaves before the end of the Top 14 playoffs, in which Steffon will very likely be playing.

First time poster, but have been following the various lions threads for some time and thought I'd throw a couple of thoughts into the mix.

First of all I am a scot, so would love to see an all blue back row - but it ain't going to happen, selection needs to be on form. If the lions was picked 18months ago Warburton, Heaslip, Ferris/Lydiate would have been the call. A year ago and in the face of six nations stats and two cracking performances against Pocock, Rennie might have pushed his way there too.

But this is now and form has to be the fundamental factor, therefore:

6) Wood
7) Robshaw
8) Faletau

The only change to the above would be if Gatland deems Robshaw as a 6/6.5 then Tipuric comes in as the only performing out and out 7 and Robshaw moves to 6 - on current form Robshaw has to play, no its or buts. I don't necessarily agree with the move to 6 but can see the case being made. In general though the logic must be to pick the players performing the best and picking them in the positions they are performing in, can't agree with a number of post on here moving 6 to 8 or 7 to 6 etc.

Unlucky to miss out:
SOB. He is great, but he is more a ball carrier than someone who does the dirty work and with Faletau and Robshaw we already have the ball carrying. On which note would also like to say Brown at 6, but think Wood edges it. Jones goes as backup for both back and second row.

As for the likes of Ferris/Lydiate, much as it is disappointing, they are injured and unless they come back and immediately play at the same level as a year/18 months ago, they cannot just be picked on reputation. If nothing else (while there are a few exceptions) history tells us that the path back from injury is often a long one and it takes time to reach prior levels of form, if at all. That is not a chance to be taken.

Welcome TF

Nice thoughtful, well reasoned first post. Are you sure this place is for you?

Only joking. I think SOB is a very over rated limited player, but I seem to be alone...

Thought i would set my stall out early - not to worry post will be shorter and less considered in future!

RubyGuby wrote:Has to be

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Faletau

16)SOB
for now but it's still in the melting pot of course

I agree with this at the moment shame about ferris, croft, lydiate and warburton all being diminished by injuries but there is still time for lydiate, Croft and warburton.

Mid week team

6) Lydiate
7)Tipuric
8) Heaslip

16) Brown

And Billy vunipola to tour as the young pet lion holding bolter

That's the way. Remember to try and wind people up, they love that

And Billy vunipola to tour as the young pet lion holding bolter

Doing poetry at night school are we?

Glas a du wrote:That's the way. Remember to try and wind people up, they love that

Fair play will look to pick the injured; the feckless; and the odd up and coming Newport Gwent Dragon teenager next time out.

I don't like what you're impying there, sunshine. The Dragons would wipe the floor with the Wallabies.




Sorry, I meant wipe the floor for the Wallabies.

You're right, that Ieuan Jones does look a bit odd...

Totalflanker wrote:Thought i would set my stall out early - not to worry post will be shorter and less considered in future!

Just remember Total - criticise Gareth Edwards, Leigh Halfpenny or Chris Robshaw and you are automatically deemed to be in Al Qaeda.

Or Heaslip, or BOD, or McVisser...

George Carlin wrote:

Totalflanker wrote:Thought i would set my stall out early - not to worry post will be shorter and less considered in future!

Just remember Total - criticise Gareth Edwards, Leigh Halfpenny or Chris Robshaw and you are automatically deemed to be in Al Qaeda.

Given that there's almost no overlap between the Edwards/Halfpenny faction and the Robshaw faction, I'd liken it more to the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea... Splitters!

Oh no, not film analogies...

Campaign for Free Galilee!

I'm Glas and so is my wife!

How bout Speedos

It was a time of War, it was a time for Speedos...

Stop thinking about sex!

I was thinking about swimming!

And then sex in the changing rooms...

6. Brown
7. Barclay
8. Beattie

....return of the The Killer Bs

Scotland will probably want to give Barclay some gametime first!

Imperialbigdave wrote:Its not just Pocock either, Hooper is a class player aswell.

With regards to fighting fire with fire, Scotland demonstrated last summer that it can work, Rennie completely outplayed Pocock and nullified him in an attritional game where he couldve been the difference. Currently, none of our specialist 7's are putting their hands up for this responsibility, but I wouldnt discount the idea if someone stakes a claim.

What about Chris Henry? Hes turning into a quality 7 and seems to be more than capable at test level in what we've seen so far. Only Sean O'Brien is keeping him out at the minute

Great shout on Henry. Quality player, real grafter ,excellent at the breakdown and strong enough on the carry!

Would love to see him make the tour as a midweek player and be given the oppurtunity to play his way into the test team.

Currently think the English back row of Wood, Robshaw and Morgan are in pole position as they have a good balance of lineout play, aggression at the breakdown, ball carrying and strong tackling (admittedly Morgan has been accused of not being a big hitter, not knocking people back enough,but I haven't seen him make any shocking missed tackles!!) Wood and Robshaw seem to share the 7 duties very well, a la France with left and right.Also the fact that they play as a unit is a big advantage to the Lions.

With guys like Henry,SOB,Tipuric,Brown and (whispers quietly) Easter also on tour, having a mix of these guys playing midweek and the weekend will provide a healthy competitive environment to get the best team to smash the Aussies!!!

Robshaw and SOB have been the clear outstanding backrowers of the past few months end of.

If either one of Ferris or Lydiate return and get picked for the Lions I would have one of them to start aswell.

Nobody else has put their hand up to the extent that the top 2 have but Wood, Faletau, Jones, Brown, Tuperic, Morgan, are all looking good.