Wade

I'm interested to know more about the bloke.

He is clearly lethal, which we've known for a while and has been particularly evident lately. In his last 4 Jeff games he has scored in each, 3 of them were tries which very few other wingers (and probably none of the main Lions contenders) would have finished, the other was a great team move which he started and finished.

In attack he links well with his teammates and from what I have seen has excellent judgment of when to pass or chip ahead. Again qualities lacking in many international wingers. I'm sure Varndell will vouch for the usefulness of Wade's awareness in broken play.

I don't know a great deal about his defence but the Wasps match reports this season contain repeated references to Wade making try-saving tackles and great takes under the high ball, so he must be doing something right - and again, probably not as much wrong as many of the NH wingers! From what I have seen, he gets stuck in, plays for the team and has sound temperament.

All this points to him being a probable starter for the Lions, let alone England. But... he isn't getting picked.

Am I missing something?

I think the reason England are not starting wade is because they want him to get more experience playing for club and Saxons rather than rushing him onto the big stage like Wales did north and Tom prydie. Through holding wade back for now I believe he can go on to be as good as shane Williams and Jason robinson

The old excuse about defensive issues should mean nothing now since Ashton was totally found out on Saturday. When in a position to put Fofana on his backside, instead stepped out of the way.

Wade's try today was excellently taken, his form all season dictates he deverves a chance soon.

I'd drop Ashton and move Brown to the right wing to accommodate Wade (that would also favour Browns right peg). I'd also drop Goode for Foden as AG seems to getting even less pacey and appears to now be side-stepping in sloooow motion. Fode's and Brown would be interchangable which be in keeping with SL's game plan but give our back three a far more threatening look to it.

Hopefully Mrs Lancaster will get a bit saucy in the next couple of weeks so Stuart comes over all peculiar and does something crazy!

Wades try was excellent today, and he can't half attack, but lets put it into perspective, he is very small, and very young. He is lethal, and is scoring some excellent tries but is he quite ready for the int stage?

Theres no rush, let him keep sparkling in the jeff for now, he won't be on the lions tour but will be a blwdi good option come world cup time!

Thank you bluesman for tempering my irrational urges!

Do you think SL should persevere with Ashton? Strettle isn't the player he was, a cheeky run out against Italy too much too soon?

I'd like to see him on the bench for the Italy game with a view to giving him 20 mins or so if the game is under control. Beyond that the summer tour. Don't believe age has anything to do with it and don't believe he will suffer for being given the chance.

I'm sure there is an element of not wanting to rush Wade. However I also seem to remember a few comments after his game for the Saxons that he looked out of his depth / not ready. I'm curious as to how.

Bluesman, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the Lions tour, as none of the others offer anything similar in style. That said, if he does go, I hope he makes the team, as being a Lions benchwarmer would be depriving him of more useful experience in Argentina.

There's nothing cheeky about it he deserves it but also isn't it about time SL gives manu and 36 start in the centre, with brown and wade on the wings and foden at full back is there a more classy back line

Under no circumstances do I want to see him join the Lions without a reasonable run of International outings under his belt. He would be better on tour with England getting in tune for the AIs.

It was awful wet conditions against the Wolfhounds which totally ruined both team's approach to the game. It was a slog and not the kind of game suited to Wade's style of play. There is hardly any preparation time for these games and often aren't the greatest showcases for English wingers as the ball rarely finds it's way to 11/14.

Dai Young commented recently on how oppostion often underestimate his strength, wingers rarely get better with age...

The question still is do we drop Ashton? If so, who comes in if not Wade?

welshboii15 wrote:There's nothing cheeky about it he deserves it but also isn't it about time SL gives manu and 36 start in the centre, with brown and wade on the wings and foden at full back is there a more classy back line

+1 spot on!

Problem SL has is that Wade is very young and needs nuturing, his game is based around supreme conficence in his supreme attacking abilities.
You don't want to rush him in and have him struggle because that'll hamper him, but then you don't want to frustrate him by not rewarding his form either.

IMHO Ashton has been a liability lately, Fofana's try aside (and Ashton has to take some blame but then I'd prefer to think of it as magic by Fofana not dire by Ashton) he has been poor defencively and anonymous in attack.

But then Brown has proved just as bad an option on the other wing, I don't remember seeing him do anything of note this 6N, and certainly offered nothing v France!

Problem is who are the form wingers in England, Wade, Varndell, Ashton, and the Glos boys?

I personally would stick with Ashton on one side and Varndell on the other with Brown on the bench for back 3 cover. But Wade has to be considered!!

I would take Wade on the lions tour (see my lions selection) and he may well travel but with the likes of Cuthbert, North, Visser, Maitland and options of 1/2p, Hogg and Foden I can't really see him being selected.

Wade reminds me of 1/2p at his age, such an old head on young shoulders and you can just see the quality oozing out of him.

welshboii

That is hardly a classy backline! Effective maybe but classy certainly not!! Tuilagi is pure brute, Brown is wasted on the wing, Foden is a good broken play runner and 12trees isnt established at all!! Classy is certainly not the word I'd use!

thebluesmancometh wrote:welshboii

That is hardly a classy backline! Effective maybe but classy certainly not!! Tuilagi is pure brute, Brown is wasted on the wing, Foden is a good broken play runner and 12trees isnt established at all!! Classy is certainly not the word I'd use!

It's the back line I'd like to see picked.

I think you're harsh on Brown, he's been very effective when the ball has found it's way to him, he always seems to break the first tackle. I think the problem is in our less cultured midfield play hence our salvating at the prospect that 12trees could fit the bill

I disagree regarding Brown lump, but then when you compare him to the likes of North, Cuthbert, Visser, Bowe etc who have all played on the wing with classier 13's than Tuilagi/12trees and have played there for longer, plus all are great strike runners and try scorers Brown just looks, well average.

He doesn't do anything wrong, but he just doesn't do anything particularly well either.

Lets be honest, he's much more effective at fullback, but isn't as solid or rounded as Goode, or as fierce on the break as Foden, or anywhere near Armitages standard IMHO.

21trees has also been over hyped, he looks good when in comparison to the very limited but defencively sound Barrit, and the bosh merchant (but ever impressing) Tuilagi, but he's not going to be the saviour of Englands midfield.

It is classy though. Care gets the ball away with pace, which gives farrel more time on the ball, twelvetrees can do it all kick, run, crashball which will bring the best out in manu who has power and pace, brown is fast breaks tackles, strong in defence, great under the eye ball and can kick, wade ok in defence but amazing in attack which offers different to brown that's what you want from your wings and then foden great in defence, flying, good under high ball, can mix it up with brown on the wing us there anything else you want from a back line

thebluesmancometh wrote:I disagree regarding Brown lump, but then when you compare him to the likes of North, Cuthbert, Visser, Bowe etc who have all played on the wing with classier 13's than Tuilagi/12trees and have played there for longer, plus all are great strike runners and try scorers Brown just looks, well average.

He doesn't do anything wrong, but he just doesn't do anything particularly well either.

Lets be honest, he's much more effective at fullback, but isn't as solid or rounded as Goode, or as fierce on the break as Foden, or anywhere near Armitages standard IMHO.

21trees has also been over hyped, he looks good when in comparison to the very limited but defencively sound Barrit, and the bosh merchant (but ever impressing) Tuilagi, but he's not going to be the saviour of Englands midfield.

Your dislike of Brown is growing rather thin now bluesman, half of the things you say here are just plain rubbish. Brown would be right up with the highest number of defenders beaten and gainline success out of all the wingers in the 6N and always makes yards and beats the 1st defender. If that classes as not doing anything particularly well then you must think the welsh wingers belong in a pub team.

You're right in that hes better at FB but to say Goode is more well rounded is just plain wrong. Brown is faster, stronger, a far better tackler (and all round defender) and better under the highball, he also has a cannon of a left boot on him. Foden on form still shades it for me, but thats only because foden on form is probably in the top 3 or 5 FBs in the world.

Wade said he has been given three elements of his game to work on by Lancaster. Tackling, kicking and fielding the high ball. Basically working on the defensive elements of a winger.

This says a lot to me about Lancaster's obsession with England being defensively strong, rather than trusting his players to play what's in front of them.

Given Lancaster's apparent preference for all rounders in his back three, Wade is unlikely to get a look in. As he currently only covers one position, he is also unlikely to feature on the bench.

Well where else can Ashton play apart from wing.

Oh here we go, because I think Brown is a distinctely average wing option and only a slightly better fullback option I clearly dislike him?

Just like when I criticised Ashtons game as readable and defencively poor it was sour grapes, or when I claimed Tuilagi needed to develop his game to cut it on the world stage I was one eyed.

Brown is nowhere near the strike runner of at least 5 other 6N options, he can't beat men 1 on 1 like Maitland, Wade, Varndell, Monye, he can't finish like 5/6 other English options let alone 6N, and he doesn't have the skill of numerous others either.

It's not a slight against him, he looks great at club level at FB, but he lacks so much on the int stage!

I actually think he does regularly beat men one on one at this level. He's got a great step off his left foot and almost always gets over the gainline - hence making the most yards on the pitch in the games against Scotland and Ireland. He's extremely fast these days and hard to bring to ground. He hasn't had much gametime at full back at international level, but on club performances he's as good as any full back in Europe.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh here we go, because I think Brown is a distinctely average wing option and only a slightly better fullback option I clearly dislike him?

Just like when I criticised Ashtons game as readable and defencively poor it was sour grapes, or when I claimed Tuilagi needed to develop his game to cut it on the world stage I was one eyed.

Brown is nowhere near the strike runner of at least 5 other 6N options, he can't beat men 1 on 1 like Maitland, Wade, Varndell, Monye, he can't finish like 5/6 other English options let alone 6N, and he doesn't have the skill of numerous others either.

It's not a slight against him, he looks great at club level at FB, but he lacks so much on the int stage!

Brown would have tackled Imhoff...

Part of the problem for Wade was he was in the middle of a mid-season dip when the squads were announced. He may have had a niggle, but his confidence was low and he seemed to look for contact rather than run round people.

He then featured for the Saxons (who admittedly were poor in both matches) without shining.

Finally how much ball would he get from this current team?

Having said that I would love to see him play against Italy, assuming the bang he took yesterday, that required joe Simpson to move to the wing, was not serious.

Well if it helps Ashton got the ball 11 times against France without really looking for work. Wade if he was busy enough could probably see it a fair bit more, especially as the now boy teams will probably look to kick to him a lot.

Much of those 11 times were from defending high kicks (where Wade looked suspect against LI) and coming inside on the crash.

Ashton is clearly out of form - but there have been logical reasons for Wade's non-inclusion.

However his finishing as shown against LI demand inclusion. The other thing is that in general England seem to create much more when they move the ball from right to left. From watching Wasps Varndell is much better at getting on the end of things on the opposite wing (though in that case it is when play goes left to right).

Sugarlump wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh here we go, because I think Brown is a distinctely average wing option and only a slightly better fullback option I clearly dislike him?

Just like when I criticised Ashtons game as readable and defencively poor it was sour grapes, or when I claimed Tuilagi needed to develop his game to cut it on the world stage I was one eyed.

Brown is nowhere near the strike runner of at least 5 other 6N options, he can't beat men 1 on 1 like Maitland, Wade, Varndell, Monye, he can't finish like 5/6 other English options let alone 6N, and he doesn't have the skill of numerous others either.

It's not a slight against him, he looks great at club level at FB, but he lacks so much on the int stage!

Brown would have tackled Imhoff...

Brown has beaten loads of men 1 on 1 this tournament and 1 on2, too. He has 3 clean breaks and has beaten 7 defenders, mostly from running through the tackle...

I mean I'd much rather have him at FB and I'd love Wade to get a chance but statistically he's been one of the best wings of the 6N so far

Dropping Ashton will give him the reality check he requires.. Goode has been OK but he is no threat.. Brown has been Ok on the Wing and deserves a run at Full Back in his best position.. Wade should play as England have lacked pace in the Backs.
I would play the following Back line against Italy..

9- Care
10- Farrell
11- Foden or Strettle
12- Twelvetrees
13- Tuilagi
14- Wade
15- Brown.

statistically he's been one of the best wings of the 6N so far

thebluesmancometh wrote:statistically he's been one of the best wings of the 6N so far

Actually based purely on stats it is not such a "funny" claim, especially as we have not seen wingers scoring loads of tries (only Cuthbert has more than 1).

Looking purely at wingers:

Most Tries - cuthbert 2
Most Metres run - Brown 212 (second Venditti 158)
Clean Breaks - Earls 4 (Second Brown and cuthbert 3)

So let me get this straight LT, Brown and Venditti are the best wingers because they return most kicks in broken field? And Earls is up there with them...

Brown isn't the best option for England, Varndell, Wade, Monye etc are all better wing options!

Brown however is a top club FB who isn't egtting his chance on the int stage to prove himself, and he is struggling to convince he's international standard.

belovedfrosties wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I disagree regarding Brown lump, but then when you compare him to the likes of North, Cuthbert, Visser, Bowe etc who have all played on the wing with classier 13's than Tuilagi/12trees and have played there for longer, plus all are great strike runners and try scorers Brown just looks, well average.

He doesn't do anything wrong, but he just doesn't do anything particularly well either.

Lets be honest, he's much more effective at fullback, but isn't as solid or rounded as Goode, or as fierce on the break as Foden, or anywhere near Armitages standard IMHO.

21trees has also been over hyped, he looks good when in comparison to the very limited but defencively sound Barrit, and the bosh merchant (but ever impressing) Tuilagi, but he's not going to be the saviour of Englands midfield.

Your dislike of Brown is growing rather thin now bluesman, half of the things you say here are just plain rubbish. Brown would be right up with the highest number of defenders beaten and gainline success out of all the wingers in the 6N and always makes yards and beats the 1st defender. If that classes as not doing anything particularly well then you must think the welsh wingers belong in a pub team.

You're right in that hes better at FB but to say Goode is more well rounded is just plain wrong. Brown is faster, stronger, a far better tackler (and all round defender) and better under the highball, he also has a cannon of a left boot on him. Foden on form still shades it for me, but thats only because foden on form is probably in the top 3 or 5 FBs in the world.

+1
Brown has been one of the top performers in the NH for the last year, please use both eyes when watching the England games.

Wade should be eased into the England setup slowly - and please, no talk of the Lions 2013, it's not his fault that most of the B&I wingers are either crocked or a crock of shoite.

It was you who laughed at the idea that Brown is performing well in terms of stats - so which stats were you using to back that up?

edit: unless you were talking about wade?

please use both eyes when watching the England games.

So when I compliment the likes of Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw, Tuilagi and certain aspects of other players games I am correct, however when I detail why I don't think a certain player is very good I am one eyed... Interesting.

thomh

So I take it you think Brown Venditti and Earls are the best back 3 players in the 6N so far?

Lets get a bit steady here...Wade should not go on the Lions tour.

Ashton is alarming a lot of fans...me included...some of his "attempts" at tackling (and taking the high ball) recently have been woeful...and i question his "bottle" more than technique. I still think he may travel with the Lions as he does offer that little something different in attack...

We forget another potential winger in Mr May at Gloucester. I think one needs to be considered for the Italy game...but also both needs to be considered on the Argentina tour.

I dont think we should make whole sale changes for the Italy game mind...they're not a woeful side...and we shouldnt take them lightly...

thebluesmancometh wrote:So let me get this straight LT, Brown and Venditti are the best wingers because they return most kicks in broken field? And Earls is up there with them...

Brown isn't the best option for England, Varndell, Wade, Monye etc are all better wing options!

Brown however is a top club FB who isn't egtting his chance on the int stage to prove himself, and he is struggling to convince he's international standard.

I agree that Brown is neither our best option at WG nor an ideal winger and should be at FB, but your laugh is laughable. Look at the stats- my statement is inarguably accurate, in terms of defence, running the ball back and making breaks. Lots of other people seem to think he is International standard, if not exactly excellent, in his wrong position (one he NEVER plays) and you have history in decided that clearly INT class players aren't up to scratch based on little

I am not saying Brown is anywhere near the best winger (not sure anyone has tried to say that) - just trying to show why you are wrong to mock someone who says that statistically he is doing well.

He is a full back. On current form I would argue the best full back available to England - but certainly not a winger. Despite that he has done pretty well and does not deserve the derision heaped on him.

Strettle is the form winger in the Jeff currently, but his scoring record internationally rivals that of Brown.

Brown...he had a quiet game by his standards yesterday but still did more than any other outside back for either team, bar Tuilagi. In the previous games hes been shown by the RFU stats to be Englands most effective back.
This may partly be because the way england play gives him a lot of resposnsibility both offensively and defensively (covering for Goode and Ashton!)...the point is hes doing everything except for socring.
Which begs the question...why not put him at full back and pick a winger.

The answer is perhaps that the center partnership cant/wont pass and they need someone to help Owf do his job and part of Barrits. So you bring in 36 and get rid of one of the centers but then you lose something else.

The obvious solution is to clone SBW but make him care and have intense pride in the purple (pink?) tracksuit of England then sew Tuuilagis ear on him to make him English.
Then worry about picking a winger who can score...like say Chris Ashton who has a great record under every coach (domestic and international) except Lancaster.

OK so my solution is sack Lancaster. Or just accept that England are mostly playing a game based on nullifying the opposition and stop worrying about the wingers/tries and start looking at the results.

thebluesmancometh wrote:thomh

So I take it you think Brown Venditti and Earls are the best back 3 players in the 6N so far?

I didn't say that, but I wasn't the one who commented about Brown being statistically way behind the best wingers in the tournament. If that's true, then say what stats you're basing it on.

LT

I was laughing at the statement claiming Brown to be the best winger, IMHO he isn't Quins best wing option let alone England or best in the 6N!!!

Cj

If stats were the case Falatau must be one of the worlds best 8's, you know being statistically superior to most, and the worlds top try score must be the best player ever???

Brown is a decent allrounder, but poor winger, he has showed great club form but hasn't been able to translate that to internationl performances, and Goode and Foden tend to be ahead of him in the FB departmnent. IMHO Brown has been shoehorned into a position he is not use to and is struggling with.

Oh and CJ who have I decided isn't int class previously? Ive had issues with a number of players performances in the past, some have proved me right and others have developed into decent players.

In what sense is he struggling though? He's not been given many attacking opportunities but he's looked threatening whenever he's had the ball and has made very few errors.

pbuk0 wrote:Dropping Ashton will give him the reality check he requires.. Goode has been OK but he is no threat.. Brown has been Ok on the Wing and deserves a run at Full Back in his best position.. Wade should play as England have lacked pace in the Backs.
I would play the following Back line against Italy..

9- Care
10- Farrell
11- Foden or Strettle
12- Twelvetrees
13- Tuilagi
14- Wade
15- Brown.

I can't object to any one of those changes. But in total, it's too many changes - 5 including positional.

Can you try again with only 3 positional changes?

Blues, I specifically said statistically, now stats are not everything, but also his stats and watching the firsdt England games show that your assertion that he can't beat men one on one is demonstrably false. And demonstrably false claims deserved to be highlighted and challenged.

Few errors, is that what makes a top international wing these days?

The likes of Cuthbert, Visser, North, Bowe, Maitland, Ashton are all far superior physically to Brown, they all threaten the line far better and do much more damage ball in hand.

For all of Ashton misfailings at least he comes looking for work, whereas Brown is happy to be anonymous out wide. If I was English I would much prefer to see Strettle, May, Sharples, Varndell, Wade, Armitage, Monye... The list could go on and on, over Brown forced into a wing spot he hasn't played.

thebluesmancometh wrote:LT

I was laughing at the statement claiming Brown to be the best winger, IMHO he isn't Quins best wing option let alone England or best in the 6N!!!

Cj

If stats were the case Falatau must be one of the worlds best 8's, you know being statistically superior to most, and the worlds top try score must be the best player ever???

Brown is a decent allrounder, but poor winger, he has showed great club form but hasn't been able to translate that to internationl performances, and Goode and Foden tend to be ahead of him in the FB departmnent. IMHO Brown has been shoehorned into a position he is not use to and is struggling with.

Oh and CJ who have I decided isn't int class previously? Ive had issues with a number of players performances in the past, some have proved me right and others have developed into decent players.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I mean I'd much rather have him at FB and I'd love Wade to get a chance but statistically he's been one of the best wings of the 6N so far

I agree he hasn't been able to bring his Club fullback form to playing International wing. That's hardly surprising and the reason he's playing behind Goode at FB is because we don't have many options at wing and Brown is a better winger than Goode even though it curtails what he can offer compared to if he were playing in his sole specialist position and also Goode's use as a second receiver is seen as vital to our gameplan when the midfield is Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi

CJ

Then for every man beaten stat I can call you with a missed tackle stat that hasn't been registered, a poor technique with ball in hand and raise you with anonymous ball watching.

Case in point, Brown got a lot of plaudits for the Ireland penalty win late on, although when he chased the kick he was comprehensively beaten by Kearney, before a second tackler rescued his inept to even touch Kearney, he then rolled over the ball totally unopposed to Moore and Lancaster proclaiming how immensely he won that game single handedly (clearly trying to help his confidence waining)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Few errors, is that what makes a top international wing these days?

The likes of Cuthbert, Visser, North, Bowe, Maitland, Ashton are all far superior physically to Brown, they all threaten the line far better and do much more damage ball in hand.

For all of Ashton misfailings at least he comes looking for work, whereas Brown is happy to be anonymous out wide. If I was English I would much prefer to see Strettle, May, Sharples, Varndell, Wade, Armitage, Monye... The list could go on and on, over Brown forced into a wing spot he hasn't played.

Except only if you insist on ignoring the stats like metres made per carry, defenders beaten etc, where they are all comparable?

Brown is a decent allrounder, but poor winger, he has showed great club form but hasn't been able to translate that to internationl performances

How can you tranlsate your club form at FB, when your playing internationals on the wing?

IMHO Brown has been shoehorned into a position he is not use to and is struggling with.

You are correct he has been shoehorned there...however i disagree he is struggling. He is adapting quickly to the defensive positioning (because he is a good player) and always makes ground with ball in hand.

Personally id much prefer him at 15 for the Italy game.

With regards to Foden...i think he can at times be too one dimensional / predictable. He runs EVERYTHING back...and defences can get used to this...he needs to learn to mix his game a little with his boot.

CJ

I agree with you 100% except that there are far better wing options excelling in the jeff, not to mention a few in France. Varndell, Wade, Strettle look amazing week in week out, and May, Sharples, Monye look pretty good too.

Theres no real reason to shoehorn Brown onto the wing, and he needs to play FB to stand a chance of Ousting Goode and Foden, similar to Armitage if he doesn't get the chance he won't stand a chance.