Wade

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I'm interested to know more about the bloke.

He is clearly lethal, which we've known for a while and has been particularly evident lately. In his last 4 Jeff games he has scored in each, 3 of them were tries which very few other wingers (and probably none of the main Lions contenders) would have finished, the other was a great team move which he started and finished.

In attack he links well with his teammates and from what I have seen has excellent judgment of when to pass or chip ahead. Again qualities lacking in many international wingers. I'm sure Varndell will vouch for the usefulness of Wade's awareness in broken play.

I don't know a great deal about his defence but the Wasps match reports this season contain repeated references to Wade making try-saving tackles and great takes under the high ball, so he must be doing something right - and again, probably not as much wrong as many of the NH wingers! From what I have seen, he gets stuck in, plays for the team and has sound temperament.

All this points to him being a probable starter for the Lions, let alone England. But... he isn't getting picked.

Am I missing something?

thebluesmancometh wrote:CJ

Then for every man beaten stat I can call you with a missed tackle stat that hasn't been registered, a poor technique with ball in hand and raise you with anonymous ball watching.

Case in point, Brown got a lot of plaudits for the Ireland penalty win late on, although when he chased the kick he was comprehensively beaten by Kearney, before a second tackler rescued his inept to even touch Kearney, he then rolled over the ball totally unopposed to Moore and Lancaster proclaiming how immensely he won that game single handedly (clearly trying to help his confidence waining)

Brown apparently has missed no tackles this 6N, even if you allow for the one you allude to (which I don't as he was allowing the inside man to cover Kearney whilst moving into his - unfamiliar- position) that's still a better tackle conversion rate that Ashton or Cuthbert, or, I think, North. No doubt he has done some anonymous ball watching but that doesn't counter the point I made and which you laughed at without any initial attempt at explanation as to why my absolutely correct statement merited it

CJ

But metres carried isn't a true reflection on ability, especially when you consider how Brown is used to drop deep and return kicks whereas other teams use backrowers who then make the long pass to the full backs etc...

Unless you are claiming that Venditti is better winger than the above list too?

thebluesmancometh wrote:CJ

But metres carried isn't a true reflection on ability, especially when you consider how Brown is used to drop deep and return kicks whereas other teams use backrowers who then make the long pass to the full backs etc...

Unless you are claiming that Venditti is better winger than the above list too?

Statistically he probably is, but as we have both agreed Stats aren't everything. I'm overreacting, I'm getting wound up because the perception that my Club seems to be made of a team that works well together but has no actual class players is galling when I strongly believe that to not be the case. At least Robshaw is getting some plaudits now days

CJ

This is meant as no offence but in a game where stats mean a massive amount to players 'performances' it wouldn't be surprising for certain players to hide as to manipulate the stats. Brown doesn't want to come in and hit defencive walls like North, Cuthbert and Bowe does constantly, first up he'll get hurt and secondly his metres to carry ratio would lessen (not that I'm saying it's what players do but I have heard conversations about it around at least 2 professional clubs, and if surgeons and doctors do similar is putting it into a sporting context tht far fetched?)

Also He didn't shepherd Kearney anywhere, kearney stood him up and rounded him before being caught by a superb last ditch tackle by Lawes.

CJ

At no point do I give England no plaudits, Cole is the best tighthead on the planet, Launchbury is the classiest lock Ive ever seen at his age, Robshaw has finally pulled his quins form over the last 8 seasons or so into the international window (considering he was the best flank in England for years before given a chance imagine how good he could be by now), Youngs is showing a bit of his early form again, Farell is cool as ice and Tuilagi has developed very well, not to mention Goodes inclusion finally.

There are at least 3 world class players in the England side, with a few more up there, but their strengths arent in their stars it's in their ability to look understated in very good units!

Have I sucked up enough to prove I'm not just anti English?

PS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Lsu9lRz80 1.23.40

thebluesmancometh wrote:CJ

This is meant as no offence but in a game where stats mean a massive amount to players 'performances' it wouldn't be surprising for certain players to hide as to manipulate the stats. Brown doesn't want to come in and hit defencive walls like North, Cuthbert and Bowe does constantly, first up he'll get hurt and secondly his metres to carry ratio would lessen (not that I'm saying it's what players do but I have heard conversations about it around at least 2 professional clubs, and if surgeons and doctors do similar is putting it into a sporting context tht far fetched?)

Also He didn't shepherd Kearney anywhere, kearney stood him up and rounded him before being caught by a superb last ditch tackle by Lawes.

I'm sorry but that is completely untrue.

Kearney and Brown were in front of each other virtually square on to one another when Lawes came in horizontally from off screen to fell Kearney.

Kearney had not beaten Brown at all.

I must admit I'm with Blueman, I don't think Brown has been overly impressive either. He's hard to put down but apart from that I can't think of many positives.

I understand he's playing out of position but when he did move to fullback against Scotland he was poor.

I'd much prefer Johnny May to come on to the left wing and keep Goode at FB.

Wade for me is quality but I think he'd be targetted. Leave him at Wasps to work on his defensive game and within time he'll be a nailed on starter.

thebluesmancometh wrote:CJ

At no point do I give England no plaudits, Cole is the best tighthead on the planet, Launchbury is the classiest lock Ive ever seen at his age, Robshaw has finally pulled his quins form over the last 8 seasons or so into the international window (considering he was the best flank in England for years before given a chance imagine how good he could be by now), Youngs is showing a bit of his early form again, Farell is cool as ice and Tuilagi has developed very well, not to mention Goodes inclusion finally.

There are at least 3 world class players in the England side, with a few more up there, but their strengths arent in their stars it's in their ability to look understated in very good units!

Have I sucked up enough to prove I'm not just anti English?

PS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Lsu9lRz80 1.23.40

I mean my Club, Blues and it's not specifically you at all, it's been England fans too and this has, I recognise, been partially a kneejerk reaction on my part to that

Brown is a very good player, he's now showing that he can play successfully at full back and at wing but is not as effective a strike player as the other wings in the tournament who've all had more then the half a season that Brown has had to get to grips with the position.

He does break tackles, he does step defenders, he fields kicks and can kick well himself. His defence is spot on. So he is a very well rounded player.

I agree with some of the views above that he should be at 15, but I disagree with Bluesman when he say's Brown isn't an international class player.

Blues who would you say were the best wingers in the tournament then? I'm curious as i'm fairly sure we could pick holes in them all day long too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit I'm with Blueman, I don't think Brown has been overly impressive either. He's hard to put down but apart from that I can't think of many positives.

I understand he's playing out of position but when he did move to fullback against Scotland he was poor.

I'd much prefer Johnny May to come on to the left wing and keep Goode at FB.

Wade for me is quality but I think he'd be targetted. Leave him at Wasps to work on his defensive game and within time he'll be a nailed on starter.

May who has zero experience and is just coming back from injury? I guess that's on the basis of one good game for Glos who are renowned for playing amazingly with their backs one week and then losing to London Welsh the next week? May who still struggles under high balls and in bad weather?

And keep Goode in the team? Goode who's now stopped coming in as a second receiver and has missed 3 out of the 5 tackles he's had to make so far in this tournament? Goode who's not as secure under the high ball, doesn't make the yardage and doesn't beat the defenders?

I finally understand how Beshocked has felt for years now.

May who was fanstastic in SA and has looked outstanding for pretty much 2 seasons.....also has played numerous times at FB.

I didn't see any rugby at the weekend so no idea if he played well or not.

Brown for me isn't an Internatonal quality FB or wing. Goode may lack a bit of gas but is as good defensivley as Brown (prob not straight up tackling but positionally much better). He also offers a bit of nous in the backline which we lack a little.

Yappy, no issue with Quins.

Theres no need to think if people don't rate Brown it's an anti-Quins/English stance.

I just don't think Brown is an International player.

Poolys right, Brown or Foden at present would be too 1 dimensional with the way the English midfield are playing, and Farell's distribution is hardly silky (I hate that floated league style pass players are using today, it's so slow and inaccurate)

Goode offers perfect positioning, a very accurate and controlled kicking games and a lovely nous for the pass for space.

Yappy If I had to pick a winger to single out in the 6N at present it'd be hard to look beyond Cuthbert. He is an actual wimp, with little technique and no rugby brain at all and has the far greatest weakness list of all wingers in the tourny by far, but the fact that his positives outweigh his negatives has to count for something.

North is arguably the most talented, Bowe the most dependable (although not this year) Zebo and Gilroy most exciting, Maitland and Visser flashiest, but every one of them is flawed to a point. My issue is that for all of Browns good abilities he just doesn't excell enough in any attribute, and today where games are won or lost on a key decision I'd rather my wingers add to the attacking options rather than be a safe choice.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Poolys right, Brown or Foden at present would be too 1 dimensional with the way the English midfield are playing, and Farell's distribution is hardly silky (I hate that floated league style pass players are using today, it's so slow and inaccurate)

Goode offers perfect positioning, a very accurate and controlled kicking games and a lovely nous for the pass for space.

Yappy If I had to pick a winger to single out in the 6N at present it'd be hard to look beyond Cuthbert. He is an actual wimp, with little technique and no rugby brain at all and has the far greatest weakness list of all wingers in the tourny by far, but the fact that his positives outweigh his negatives has to count for something.

North is arguably the most talented, Bowe the most dependable (although not this year) Zebo and Gilroy most exciting, Maitland and Visser flashiest, but every one of them is flawed to a point. My issue is that for all of Browns good abilities he just doesn't excell enough in any attribute, and today where games are won or lost on a key decision I'd rather my wingers add to the attacking options rather than be a safe choice.

I think this kinda highlights that SL wants players that are 'jack-of-all-trades' type players. I think it's been mentioned in this thread that Lancaster wants Wade to practice kicking and fielding high-balls so he won't be considered until whats deemed to be weaknesses have been ironed out. Brown's been unlucky with the pitiful amount of ball recevied on the front foot, he was on shoulder of Parling for his try as he was on Tuilagi's for his on Saturday. I don't think any of this years 6N wingers have been particularly setting the world alight!

I don't think North is the most talented, the most physically gifted perhaps but the Scots could argue that about Visser as well. Cuthbert is a blunt tool looking like a character out of 'The hills have eyes' and in the same bracket as Mat Banahan, his tries could have been scored by most half decent wingers. We haven't seen the best of Maitland yet, he demonstated his pace tracking Earls back on Sunday, but apart from that and having the best tan in Scotland there's not much else to say about him. Gilroy is prob my pick of the wingers so far.

I think it's slightly laughable to write off Foden and Brown in combination, on form Foden is in the top 3 fullbacks in the world and Brown has a growing reputation while playing for one the most exciting teams (that are in the knockout stages ) in europe. His only mistake pointed out by people being in the lead up to Maitland's try but he was covering half the pitch on his own before Hogg nipped through the 'gap'. I mainly played hooker and open side in my time, I don't know why I'm getting so passionate about our back three!

Wade - I am normally one of those slamming wingers and 15's for defensive lapses.

Varndell, Abendanon, Sharples (to a lesser extent). Guys that I'd send back to clubs to work on the 'D'.

But, Wade is a guy thats try scoring form and ability ball in hand that I'd say demands selection over the odd missed tackle. Some of the try's that I've seen from this guy I've never seen other wingers do to the same extent - and consistently for club.

Trys scored down a 0.5m channel - never mind the 5m channel!

He simply has to be selected, and soon. I think more realistically its going to be the Argentina tour. Would love to see him play against Italy but SL wont break a winning team at the moment.

Agreed David, I don't think there's anyone else in our country able to beat a defender one on one like he can. The way he stepped in and then out of Homer's tackle to score at the weekend was excellent, Homer is a pretty good FB too and there was like 2m between him and the touchline!

I don't get this age thing with Wade. Yes, he's young but not that young, he's coming up 22 and in the context of the Lancaster squad would not make him the 'baby' of the group. The notion that his confidence might suffer is also unlikely. One good run beating a couple of people and he'll be on his way. I can't think of a better environment for him to develop in, the SL team have all the right credentials for this. Get him in the squad and start now to nurture this prodigious talent.

Till hes actually done it Wade is just another May/JJ/Sharples/Soup de jour in my book. Sure pick him and play him, but lets not pretend hes the saviour of English rugby like Vanikolo/Banahan/Tait/AN Other ( ) was till hes proven it. Especially when English rugby isnt in need of saving.

Brown isn't an international class player?! Ridiculous. He's a FB who's been asked to play wing against some of the best teams (as well as in the 6N ) and not only hasn't looked out of place but has been amongst England's best performers. He's even made some established NH wingers look average. His place is at FB, but not an international class player? bwahahahaha

Well, at least a few posts have got this thread back to the subject. I was going to ask the OP to change the title of the article to 'Brown'.



But as a few posters are fixated on Brown, I will say that I like the way he nearly always tries to attack space, rather than run at a brick wall.

Watch NZ and Aus - their players tend to do the same.

Hound, to drag this article back on track. Would you want to see Wade or Varndell in the mix? And is Billy V going to be playing this weekend?

yappy - not really. The way England play isn't suited to either. Both are out and out finishers if given space. But with Wade he just needs a glimpse of open field.

England rarely create space out wide these days, although Wade is better than Varndell at looking to get involved off 1st or 2nd phase ball.

A lot of Varndell's tries this season have happened because teams double/triple mark Wade. If we can get quick ball from the breakdown then Varndell has the room to to what he does best. Finish the chance.

From an English pov, Wade can finish a 'one on one' chance better than anyone since Jason Robinson.

As I said earlier, Wade has been given areas of his game to work on for the time being. This suggests that SL won't pick him in the 1st team squad any time soon.

A brutal tour of Argentina awaits, if he's fit. And I suspect that will be where Lancaster really judges Wade.

Sorry, I didn't address the Billy V question.

No news from Wasps from what I can tell. Mind you, I think we gave up on the injury updates after last season. Too depressing for us.

I'd have felt differently if he'd been training with the EPS since the start of the 6N, but as it is I wouldn't be a fan of Wade coming in just for the Italy game (even if he performed well there, I don't think it would be ideal player management to play him in what is likely to be a very high pressure match in Cardiff).

At this stage I think it's best that the team which Lancaster expects to start against Wales also starts against Italy after the week break, and that Wade continues with Wasps for the rest of the season (which looks like it could lead to a play-off, hopefully taking him that little bit further along and even more hungry), but it's then essential that he (along with players like May, Sharples & Yarde) travels to Argentina and starts tests, we really need to focus on developing some of our quality wingers into fully fledged international options.


Regarding Brown, he has been plenty effective with the ball he's been given, carries hard, beats defenders and makes breaks, but he's more of a go forward player in that position rather than a natural predator and finisher there. Hardly surprising given that he hasn't played on the wing prior to being asked to by England, doesn't get to practice it at his club and it requires different instincts, timing and appreciation of space compared to how a FB attacks the line (to be fair I suspect Lancaster isn't asking him to play a full wing role, but perform a combined FB one, allowing Goode to come into the line more as a distributor).

He may well be able to succesfully develop his game further to make the wing position a better fit, but it's going to be difficult without club time in the role and I think he's only really a stopgap there that denies him to demonstrate his more natural game. After the 6N I want to see the experiment end and him only start at FB (which I would do over Goode).