England v Italy - 10th March Match Thread

[Chjw131]

First topic message reminder :

Venue - Twickenham Stadium

Kick Off - 15:00

Just thought i'd try and get a unified thread going for the game. The news so far is that Courtney Lawes, Dylan Hartley, James Haskell, David Strettle, Ben Foden, Lee Dickson, Matt Kvesic, Joel Tomkins, Davy Wilson and Thomas Waldrom have been released from the camp to play on the weekend.

Any thoughts on changes for the game? What does everyone think of Ashton probably retaining his place? Billy V and Morgan are both not training this week due to injury so any thoughts on back-row changes? I also assume, although it's not been mentioned that Will Fraser has been retained in camp so might we see him on the bench for Italy?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I expect the "freshening up" is partly due to Farrells injury. better not to risk him. Its also good to give the "plan B" bench combinations a run out, it will also make it harder for Wales to prepare with uncertainty over what Lancasters plans are for that game.

Messing about with the back row and BVP in the squad is surely driven by the failed Lawes/Wood experiement.

We could seem considerable changes to what is a winning side. But as Lancaster points out, this is from players at the core of Englands current 33 squad, not fringe players parachuted in. Theres not much point in having an elite group and squad that trains together regularly if you are picking from it. It would also be and admission of failure and a show a lack of faith in their squad to be going outside it.

[majesticimperialman]

How did Freddie Burns get on last night?

What with Farral not doing mutch training with the squad due to a leg injurie last time out. England need some one to back up Flood.

Any one see him play last night? how was he? did he play the full 80?

[RuggerBoy]

He started but was replaced after 50 minutes. While he was on I thought he was totally overshadowed by young Tom Heathcote.

[Hood83]

He started but was replaced after 50 minutes. While he was on I thought he was totally overshadowed by young Tom Heathcote.

I thought the same. Seen Heathcote before and thought he was average but if that game's anything to go by, our loss is Scotland's gain.

[yappysnap]

To be fair Heathcote was settled, at his home ground and behind a dominant pack. Burns was none of those things.

[hawalsh]

How did Freddie Burns get on last night?

What with Farral not doing mutch training with the squad due to a leg injurie last time out. England need some one to back up Flood.

Any one see him play last night? how was he? did he play the full 80?

I thought Burns looked very good with ball in hand but had a bad day with the boot (Gloucester missed 5 kicks at goal, which would have seen them win the match, Bath missed 2), not sure if that is a lingering effect of the knee inury or just due to lack of practice. Something to be wary of if Lancaster is looking to select him for the bench, though Twelvetrees could take over those duties if problems persisted. Probably better to give him more time to get back to his best with his club if not needed.

Agree Heathcote also looked very good, he skated past more than a few defenders, though also got turned over a fair bit and missed three tackles.

[maestegmafia]

I can see Goode dropping to bench as fullback/fly half cover, brown to fullback and strettle to the wing

Why Strettle?

Apparently Vunipolu will get his first cap from the bench.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I can see Goode dropping to bench as fullback/fly half cover, brown to fullback and strettle to the wing

Why Strettle?

Apparently Vunipolu will get his first cap from the bench.

Because hes one of the form wingers in the jeff recently and has previously been a Lancaster boy. However he didnt get retained for the training squad, so this wont happen.

[gregortree]

Freddie pulled up after 50 minutes at the Wreck on Friday and was subbed. I think he is not fully over his injury. Plus Farrell recovering from his pull.
So need to allow some recovery time for both of these guys.
So Flood & Goode for England this next weekend.
Flood seems in good form.

[formerly known as Sam]

Something like:

1. Vunipola
2. T Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Bench - Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Haskell, B Youngs, Burns, Twelvetrees.

Rest Benny and Farrell as they have been tactically spot on and key to our success (particularly Youngs territorial game). Give the Vunipola brothers a start but keep the pack competitive. The centre partnership is still developing and developing well so I'd like to see more of them together.

Personally I'd like to see Wade, Croft, Slater and Webber train with the squad during the week to increase our possible bench options depending on form.

[majesticimperialman]

I do like the idea of Vunipola at 8. Is he now fit enough too play? last i heard he was injured.

I also agree that the centre partnership id still developing. Barrit and Tualaghi have become all most inseperable.

Who else do we have in the 8 position that is not injured? How is Morgan doing?

[EnglishReign]

Morgan will miss Italy. I think Burns will miss this one as well. His general play on Friday was very good but missed a load of kicks which is very unlike him, for this season at least. Probably not 100% yet.

[formerly known as Sam]

I do like the idea of Vunipola at 8. Is he now fit enough too play? last i heard he was injured.

Ah damn I thought he was back but apparently not. Hmm a Croft, Robshaw, Wood combo could be interesting.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Morgan will miss Italy. I think Burns will miss this one as well. His general play on Friday was very good but missed a load of kicks which is very unlike him, for this season at least. Probably not 100% yet.

Burns wouldnt have made the squad unless Farrell was too injured to play anyway.

[propdavid_london]

So, who's the back-up 10?
If Farrell and Burns arent fit - do we have 36 or Goode covering the 10 spot?

Both would be in the deep end. Goode didnt go too well for Sarries when he was tried there.

[beshocked]

Something like:

1. Vunipola
2. T Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Bench - Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Haskell, B Youngs, Burns, Twelvetrees.

Rest Benny and Farrell as they have been tactically spot on and key to our success (particularly Youngs territorial game). Give the Vunipola brothers a start but keep the pack competitive. The centre partnership is still developing and developing well so I'd like to see more of them together.

Personally I'd like to see Wade, Croft, Slater and Webber train with the squad during the week to increase our possible bench options depending on form.

Good side - I like it.

Don't think Burns will be fit.


propdavid london personally I would prefer Twelvetrees as back up 10.

[gregortree]

Charlie 'charge down' Hodgson. Worked last 6n anyway.

[RubyGuby]

Hodgson is unavailable

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Why is he unavailable? He played last night for Sarries. I know hes supposedly retired but I cant imagine him turning down a one off call up.

Next in line from the EPS would be George Ford though, who does seem to have found some form again.

After that we are down to relying on Twelvtrees or Goode as emergency only replacement. Lancaster only has 4 speacilist 10s in his 65 man eliote squad

[RubyGuby]

He's promised to take his mother out for mothering Sunday - Tables booked and he doesn't want to let her down

[LondonTiger]

Why is he unavailable? He played last night for Sarries. I know hes supposedly retired but I cant imagine him turning down a one off call up.

Next in line from the EPS would be George Ford though, who does seem to have found some form again.

After that we are down to relying on Twelvtrees or Goode as emergency only replacement. Lancaster only has 4 speacilist 10s in his 65 man eliote squad

His performances in the last couple of weeks have been promising. On Saturday we saw his best performance since the MotM display against Sarries in the AP semi last season.

[propdavid_london]

I missed the highlights show - Good news if Ford is getting his confidence back.
Myler could get the lift up from Saxons.
Who else is the Saxons 10?
Lamb?

[lostinwales]

Eastmond

[LondonTiger]

I missed the highlights show - Good news if Ford is getting his confidence back.
Myler could get the lift up from Saxons.
Who else is the Saxons 10?
Lamb?

Ford is the only 10 in the Saxons squad (neithe rMyler nor Lamb are in it)

[Triangulation]

Re our 10 situation if Lancaster stays true to his usual modus operandi he'll promote the next young cab off the rank with the proviso that that cab is showing form.

Presumably this is Ford?

I think we need to remember that in any given starting XV we have players who can cover other positins so we wont always have the cover from the bench.

I could easily see the following side being selected. I could see Barrit coming on at 13 and Tuilagi shifting to wing for 20 minutes or so for example.

I think Barrit in particular could do with a rest along with Cole(!!), Parling, Launchbury, Robshaw and Wood. These guys are such workhorses. Still you cant rest them all at once!

Vunipola
Youngs
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Haskell
Care
Flood
36
MT
Ashton
Brown
Goode

Bench : Wilson, Hartley, Marler, Lawes, B.Vunipola, B.Youngs, G.Ford, Barrit

[beshocked]

Triangulation surely these players you mention have had a week off.

[Triangulation]

Beshocked you're right of course. I do worry though about the managment of their workloads long term though.

Cole in particular.

Beshocked - Is Strettle worth a shout at wing for England or not?

The papers are all talking up his form after the weekend.

[propdavid_london]

What twit scheduled this game on Mothering Sunday!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

A motherf*cker?

[Alex_Germany]

Triangulation surely these players you mention have had a week off.

But then have 6 days before Wales. It would be nice if Robshaw or Wood could get the last 20 minutes off.

[lostinwales]

Triangulation surely these players you mention have had a week off.

But then have 6 days before Wales. It would be nice if Robshaw or Wood could get the last 20 minutes off.

I sort of get the feeling that in particular you could only get Robshaw off by shooting him with a tranquiliser dart

[Scrumpy]

I don't think we should change the team too much, Italy could cause a few problems if we tinker with it too much.

Also it would show a lack of respect to Italy.

[propdavid_london]

Agree Victor - Other sides have experimented with Italy before and been undone.
Minimal changes -

Vaunipola
Youngs
Cole
Parling
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Haskell
Care
Flood
Ashton - Just have a feeling he will be given another chance
Barritt
Tuilagi
Brown
Goode

Subs/Replacements in 2nd half (if not forced by injury)

36 on for Barritt
Marler for Vaunipola
Wilson for Cole
Hartley for Youngs
Youngs for Care
Lawes for Launchbury
B.Vaunipola for Haskell

[beshocked]

Strettle is in good form but whether he warrants selection over the likes of Wade and even Varndell is debatable.

I think the media are hyping Strettle up a bit but he is scoring tries. 5 in his last 5 premiership games I believe.

Alex germany I agree. That will probably be the case too.

VictorU3 I agree. England need to get the balance right.

[Triangulation]

All good comments above.

We must respect Italy but equally we must attack and try to stretch them.

There is always a danger of being embroiled in a piggie arm wrestle with them.

Yes we must earn the right to go wide and all that but i want to see offloads, quick lineouts, quick tapped penalties and a generally high tempo game from us from the start.

[Scrumpy]

@prop_david

Can't argue with that, although I think I'd start with 36, I'd also put Ashton on the bench to make him hungry for it again but I don't think that will happen this game.

Flood, 36, Manu where have I seen that before?

[propdavid_london]

Ha, true Victor - although this time all 3 are that little bit more experienced.

Manu is getting better with every game so lets keep playing him and see how good he gets.

[bluestonevedder]

I think this game would be the perfect opportunity to try out the Twelvetrees-Tuilagi centre pairing.

God knows Barritt could probably do with a rest- the man is constantly putting his body on the line.

I reckon with a more passing-orientated 12 like 12T, Tuilagi and Ashton could have more opportunities to get ball in hand. Ashton especially could flourish from a more passing-orientated game. Could do wonders for his confidence.

[Triangulation]

I think this game would be the perfect opportunity to try out the Twelvetrees-Tuilagi centre pairing.

God knows Barritt could probably do with a rest- the man is constantly putting his body on the line.

I reckon with a more passing-orientated 12 like 12T, Tuilagi and Ashton could have more opportunities to get ball in hand. Ashton especially could flourish from a more passing-orientated game. Could do wonders for his confidence.

Agreed 100%. Well said.

Also and this is somewhat perverse - If Italy see 36 on the teamsheet instead of the defensive bullwark that is Barrit and that encourages them to attack us more with ball in hand...

Well i think that plays into our hands.

Ditto with Flood for Farrell.

[SecretFly]

Based on the recent results and the Moon in Jupiter.... I'd say Italy by 15.....................................................


what?....................................

............................Oh rugby?

Oh I thought it was sexy politics. Continue

[bluestonevedder]

I think this game would be the perfect opportunity to try out the Twelvetrees-Tuilagi centre pairing.

God knows Barritt could probably do with a rest- the man is constantly putting his body on the line.

I reckon with a more passing-orientated 12 like 12T, Tuilagi and Ashton could have more opportunities to get ball in hand. Ashton especially could flourish from a more passing-orientated game. Could do wonders for his confidence.

Agreed 100%. Well said.

Also and this is somewhat perverse - If Italy see 36 on the teamsheet instead of the defensive bullwark that is Barrit and that encourages them to attack us more with ball in hand...
Well i think that plays into our hands.

Ditto with Flood for Farrell.

Definitely. I see Wood and Robshaw hounding them at the breakdown all day long. The more they look for contact, the more ball I reckon we'll end up plaing with. It's going to be really interesting seeing what tactics both England and Italy adopt.

[Triangulation]

Here's hoping for dry conditions and for some of the deserving pine riders to get a start and the others to get some degree of respite.

[fa0019]

Got to start Ashton because you want him firing and confident for the Wales match. Ashton needs opportunities and should get them if he plays 80mins vs. Italy... won't do him much good if he's sitting watching someone else take that opportunity.

Italy will leak tries on the weekend, IMO lots of them.

[Triangulation]

Interestingly Ashton has spoken of the problem of him chasing after the ball too much and possibly thereby tiring himself out and/or getting himself out of position.

Makes sense to me.

He might be better playing in a slightly more orthodox fashion and remaining patiently out on his wing a bit more.

That said he will still come infield occasionally looking for opportunities.

It is a matter of reading the game and those opportunities a bit better than he has been doing.

There are probably certain England ball carriers that he should track more than others.

If it was me, i'd be in Tuilagi's pocket for as much of the game as possible!
If Flood and 36 play both of them are more than capable of the break/half break and pass.

If Billy Vunipola gets a go he would be worth tracking also.

[fa0019]

Flood's game certainly suits Ashton more as he often makes smart breaks from 10 and a player like Ashton will exploit that more than under Farrell's tenure.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

In defence of Farrels attack he did show against New Zealand ( and Scotland) that he is capable of getting the backs into the game when asked to play that way. He doesnt have Floods running threat though.
Its just the last couple of games hes been standing deep again and England playing the percentage pressure game more.

Care Flood 36 Tuilagi is in theory a fabulous attacking midfield.

[bluestonevedder]

Ai like that backline a lot PSW.

Will be great to see Care finally start a game- he must be raring to go.

Regarding Ashton, I think he is certainly trying to hard to have an impact on the game at the moment. Rather than waiting for phases to involve him, or the ball spread out to his wing, he comes in field and takes on too much work. The number fo times this Six Nations he has come in field to collect the ball, dazzled off into some space only to be turned over is astounding. He seems to do it a number of times every game at the moment.

[johnpartle]

I think this game would be the perfect opportunity to try out the Twelvetrees-Tuilagi centre pairing.

God knows Barritt could probably do with a rest- the man is constantly putting his body on the line.

I reckon with a more passing-orientated 12 like 12T, Tuilagi and Ashton could have more opportunities to get ball in hand. Ashton especially could flourish from a more passing-orientated game. Could do wonders for his confidence.

It's an interesting notion that many of us hold, but Niwatts posted this earlier in the thread:

Makes no sense to play your best player out of position and where he receives less ball than usual IMO.

Tuilagi is your 'go to' man in attack and the team should be built around his options either using him as a dummy receiver or as the actual receiver.

Put Barritt at 13 and you will hardly ever get the ball to the wings off a set piece and your yardage will drop significantly.

If he's fit I wouldn't hesitate to play Tuilagi at OC, and nowhere else. I'm also a big fan of Twelvetrees and think he will make the IC position his own. Regarding Barritt though, this continued belief that he doesn't pass or can't pass effectively is wrong. In the Scotland game for instance with both Twelvetrees & Barritt starting and where our back three saw more ball than they've seen in some time, Twelvetrees at IC passed the ball only 6 times and ran it 16, Barritt at OC passed the ball 15 times and ran it 15 (note, passing and running the ball are not statistically mutually exclusive events), Barritt also gave 3 offloads, Twelvetrees 1.

[bluestonevedder]

Great points that niwatts makes, and I hadn't seen those stats before. However, judging from their performances in the AP, I would still say that 12T has the better passing game. Maybe he didn't show it in the Scotland game, but his passing of both hands is excellent- accurate, tight, and long. As great as Barritt is as a player, I would just like to see 12T given the chance to bring this passing game onto the international scene. We rarely see BB do a miss pass for instance, and I think England could really undo Italy this weekend with some effective and efficient passing.

[johnpartle]

I agree about 36 bluestone, he definitely has the more impressive passing game.

The stats do raise the question about how England are asking our 12s to play though, 36 ran a fair bit more than he passed in that game and Barritt at 13 passed more than we normally see him do at 12. Barritt wouldn't be my choice at 13 and I'm not advocating dropping Tuilagi, but playing two 12s in the centres did see us get a lot more ball to our outside backs.

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