ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21 - build up / match thread

[TightHEAD]

ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21

Kick off - HQ - 14:15

England need to bounce back well, good time for Italy to turn up and disrupt their plans as best they can.

Line ups

England: Daly; Watson, Slade, Farrell,May; Ford, Youngs (Mr Untouchable); M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, B Vunipola??.

Replacements: George, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Earl, Willis, Robson, Malins.

Italy: Trulla; Sperandio, Brex, Canna, Ioane; Garbisi, Varney; Lovotti, Bigi (capt), Riccioni, Lazzaroni, Sisi, Negri, Meyer, Lamaro.

Replacements: Lucchesi, Fischetti, Zilocchi, Cannone, Ruzza, Palazzani, Allan, Mori.

[TightHEAD]

Should England mix it up or keep kicking the hell out of the ball?

[Geordie]

England need to revert to the rugby where they can actually attack the ball a bit!!

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Stuart (Sinkler off bench)
4 Itoje - C
5 Hill
6 Wilson - Willis is not in the squad or he would have been picked
7 Curry - VC
8 Earl

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 / 15 - Daly / Watson - Which ever way around

Odogwu off the bench at half time...
Randall off the bench at half time...

[No 7&1/2]

My preference would be this:

Genge LCD Sinckler
Itoje Hill
Willis Curry
Earl
Randall Malins
May Farrell Odogwu Watson
Daly

Obano George Stuart Lawes Wilson Robson Ford Lawrence

The back row is much more the direction the better prem teams are going with ie quick, strong at turnovers and Willis is a good option at the front of the lineout as well. That pack would certainly prove a much great threat when opposition have the ball, Sinckler is for me top 2 tight heads in the world so clearly strengthens things.

The back line is all about using the ball better, running and passing threats but still offering a tactical and attacking kicking threat that Jones likes.

I'd have a different full back and 8 ideally but covid restrictions.

[Geordie]

Is Willis in the squad though 7.5?

i doubt he'll start a debutant and very new player in the key 9 and 10 spot unfortunately...despite how much i rate them.

[No 7&1/2]

Yup he is. Replaced Underhill.

those are my choices as the changes bar Odogwu have all had time playing together, in those same positions on the whole. I fully expect him to view Malins as a full back though I can still see some changes, this is Italy after all and they were probably planning to cap the bear and the wasp in this match.

[Geordie]

Ah well yes i would go with that back row then.

See numerous newspapers saying Farrells and Billys positions must be up for grabs now.

But some also pointing at the total restrictions and rigidity of the tactics...that they are almost suffocating any kind of flair and off the cuff rugby.

[Gooseberry]

Should England mix it up or keep kicking the hell out of the ball?

Kicks from hand :

England 35

Scotland 43


They should just get someone better at it than Farrell has been recently

[Soul Requiem]

Ah well yes i would go with that back row then.

See numerous newspapers saying Farrells and Billys positions must be up for grabs now.

But some also pointing at the total restrictions and rigidity of the tactics...that they are almost suffocating any kind of flair and off the cuff rugby.

With that style of rugby you need players capable of producing a one off piece of magic like a George Ford rather than an Owen Farrell. The Daly try against Wales years ago is a perfect example of that, Ford was the one who saw the opportunity and orchestrated the move but all people ever mentioned was Farrells final pass, flip their roles for instance and that try never happens.

[lostinwales]

Should England mix it up or keep kicking the hell out of the ball?

Kicks from hand :

England 35

Scotland 43


They should just get someone better at it than Farrell has been recently

To be fair Scotland had the ball almost all the time. Be more interesting to see the kicks as a fraction of some measure of possession. But that is getting away from the main point. The kicking game is currently a whole heap of crap and yet it seems to remain the principle method of attack. Not enough mixing up of the game.

When our kicking game worked best we would make use of May's extreme pace to stick the ball long and have May arrive at the same time. If not May then Watson, or someone else. It is just not happening.

[Gooseberry]

that they are almost suffocating any kind of flair and off the cuff rugby.

When the games structured maybe, but if you bother to actually listen to Jones he has always talked about the difference between that and unstructured play especially in the oppositions half where he see it as very fluid and wants players who play heads up and dont get set in specific positions and roles. That includes in the build up to this match when asked about Slade at 12 vs 13.

Problems been when players have been in those situations they've made a pigs ear of it. Doesn't matter what the tactics are when Youngs passes it in front of 3 players or Robson kicks the ball through and off the pitch with noone in a position to chase it. Big problem with Farrell is he is useless when it comes to running ball in hand, so if they are looking for that from 10/12 then he really has to go regardless of what else he brings (like the inability to tackle a winger even when helped by Wilson)



Theres a a lot of changes that could be made for the next test in terms of personnel, BVP and Farrell the most at risk big names I would've thought. The last game was the nadir, its time to make big decisions and have players who are match sharp and who are playing without baggage. Theres bags of talent in the squad, but they've been getting flatter since that world cup final kick off rare moments of spark. Partly psychological? Either way the time is now for some serious rebooting, doesn't have to mean permanent exile for for the old guard but they need to earn their places.

[Gooseberry]

Should England mix it up or keep kicking the hell out of the ball?

Kicks from hand :

England 35

Scotland 43


They should just get someone better at it than Farrell has been recently

To be fair Scotland had the ball almost all the time. Be more interesting to see the kicks as a fraction of some measure of possession. But that is getting away from the main point. The kicking game is currently a whole heap of crap and yet it seems to remain the principle method of attack. Not enough mixing up of the game.

When our kicking game worked best we would make use of May's extreme pace to stick the ball long and have May arrive at the same time. If not May then Watson, or someone else. It is just not happening.

Yep, the problem is how well you do what you're doing. Its not like their passing and running was any good either, Robson looked like a headless chicken. Chucking the ball around in their own half only wouldve meant conceding more kickable penalties rather than losing field position. (For the record Scotland did Pass and run more too, but they had more good possession to do it with. General point was that its not just England who kick, but Scotland did it much better ...including Hogg taking high risk / reward kicks to the corners )

May is one of the few players who still has plenty of credit to get away with a real stinker of a game, Farrell really must be on short rope now after being backed so fully with the start over Ford. Cant even blame lack of game time, he wasn't exactly great against France B after a long run of games in the Autumn.

[Geordie]

that they are almost suffocating any kind of flair and off the cuff rugby.

When the games structured maybe, but if you bother to actually listen to Jones he has always talked about the difference between that and unstructured play especially in the oppositions half where he see it as very fluid and wants players who play heads up and dont get set in specific positions and roles. That includes in the build up to this match when asked about Slade at 12 vs 13.

Most people listen to Jones. I certainly do...unfortunately, for some time now, for whatever reason, theres a gap between whats hes saying and what the England team are delivering. Ive seen little evidence of Fliud heads up play anywhere on the pitch.

[doctor_grey]

Ah well yes i would go with that back row then.

See numerous newspapers saying Farrells and Billys positions must be up for grabs now.

But some also pointing at the total restrictions and rigidity of the tactics...that they are almost suffocating any kind of flair and off the cuff rugby.

Both points are right in my opinion. Let's see if Ford can/will involve Lawrence and Slade (or is it Slade and Lawrence?).

[TightHEAD]

Let's be honest, we are talking about Eddie Jones.

I fully expect an unchanged team.

[Geordie]

He'll bench Genge and put the unfit Mako back in...

[Geordie]

What about lawes...he did make an impact when he came on.

[TightHEAD]

What about lawes...he did make an impact when he came on.

Wasn't too hard for anyone to make an impact to be fair.

[Geordie]

True

[No 7&1/2]

I'd rather Lawes be considered a lock, but I'd be looking at Hill getting a few more games under his belt to see how he beds in. He's not excelled yet but he hasn't been terrible.

[doctor_grey]

Hill has got to lose the mullet first. That is the clear reason England were poor.

[lostinwales]

The most public changes so far involve bringing the new props in. I don't think that will be enough in itself, although any team would benefit from bringing in Sinckler and Mako if they are fit and in form.

I really want Genge to succeed but he's only showed glimpses of what he can do in his international career so far, but replacing him with Mako is questionable given the lack of game time.

[doctor_grey]

I am still having problems with some of the Saracens England players not being in shape.  First of all. don't you think players not in shape should not be selected to play for their country or dropped?  The Six Nations is not a place to play oneself back into game shape.  Secondly, I still think of Argentina in the Rugby championship last year playing really well in most of their matches after not playing for over a year.  They posted a video of them training at their homes just to stay in shape.  That is both professional and shows pride in their jersey.  Out of shape shows neither.

[Soul Requiem]

The most public changes so far involve bringing the new props in. I don't think that will be enough in itself, although any team would benefit from bringing in Sinckler and Mako if they are fit and in form.

I really want Genge to succeed but he's only showed glimpses of what he can do in his international career so far, but replacing him with Mako is questionable given the lack of game time.

I think we saw in the autumn that Genge is still a way behind Marler and hasn't progressed anywhere near as much as he should have done, looks like a poorer player than the one first selected.

[nlpnlp]

The most public changes so far involve bringing the new props in. I don't think that will be enough in itself, although any team would benefit from bringing in Sinckler and Mako if they are fit and in form.

I really want Genge to succeed but he's only showed glimpses of what he can do in his international career so far, but replacing him with Mako is questionable given the lack of game time.

I think we saw in the autumn that Genge is still a way behind Marler and hasn't progressed anywhere near as much as he should have done, looks like a poorer player than the one first selected.

Do you not think it was just a case of everybody was poor against Scotland, so Genge didn't look great? Curry had his worst game in an England shirt since??? If the team was playing well, then everybody looks better. Whatever team we put out against Italy should win, so are we not better giving the Sarries players a run out to get sharper for the tougher games to come, rather than dropping them, giving a few of the young guns some minutes and then bringing the Sarries players back in?

I hate to say it, but I expect to see a 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Billy, 9. Youngs, 10. Ford, 12. Farrell and 13. Slade selection.

[doctor_grey]

I hate to say it, but I expect to see a 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Billy, 9. Youngs, 10. Ford, 12. Farrell and 13. Slade selection.

I would hate to see that too. And I would not be surprised if you are right. Lawes should be in the second row. Billy and Farrell should not play. Billy was out of shape which disrespects everyone and the team overall. Farrell at 10 did nothing but kick. Mindlessly. Regardless of the tactics Eddie Jones wanted him to play, he has a lot of caps, is supposed to be a leader in the team, and should know what do do when things are not working. He failed utterly.

When is the team named? I can't wait for the clamor and dismay, which will likely include me.

[Soul Requiem]

The most public changes so far involve bringing the new props in. I don't think that will be enough in itself, although any team would benefit from bringing in Sinckler and Mako if they are fit and in form.

I really want Genge to succeed but he's only showed glimpses of what he can do in his international career so far, but replacing him with Mako is questionable given the lack of game time.

I think we saw in the autumn that Genge is still a way behind Marler and hasn't progressed anywhere near as much as he should have done, looks like a poorer player than the one first selected.

Do you not think it was just a case of everybody was poor against Scotland, so Genge didn't look great?  Curry had his worst game in an England shirt since???  If the team was playing well, then everybody looks better.  Whatever team we put out against Italy should win, so are we not better giving the Sarries players a run out to get sharper for the tougher games to come, rather than dropping them, giving a few of the young guns some minutes and then bringing the Sarries players back in?

I hate to say it, but I expect to see a 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Billy, 9. Youngs, 10. Ford, 12. Farrell and 13. Slade selection.

I was talking about the autumn internationals not the Scotland game hence my saying that.

[No 7&1/2]

I hate to say it, but I expect to see a 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Billy, 9. Youngs, 10. Ford, 12. Farrell and 13. Slade selection.

I would hate to see that too. And I would not be surprised if you are right. Lawes should be in the second row. Billy and Farrell should not play. Billy was out of shape which disrespects everyone and the team overall. Farrell at 10 did nothing but kick. Mindlessly. Regardless of the tactics Eddie Jones wanted him to play, he has a lot of caps, is supposed to be a leader in the team, and should know what do do when things are not working. He failed utterly.

When is the team named? I can't wait for the clamor and dismay, which will likely include me.

Thursday at 11. I'm feeling positve. Randall and willis will start. They'll both look class.

[doctor_grey]

I hate to say it, but I expect to see a 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Billy, 9. Youngs, 10. Ford, 12. Farrell and 13. Slade selection.

I would hate to see that too.  And I would not be surprised if you are right.  Lawes should be in the second row.  Billy and Farrell should not play.  Billy was out of shape which disrespects everyone and the team overall.  Farrell at 10 did nothing but kick.  Mindlessly.  Regardless of the tactics Eddie Jones wanted him to play, he has a lot of caps, is supposed to be a leader in the team, and should know what do do when things are not working.  He failed utterly.  

When is the team named?  I can't wait for the clamor and dismay, which will likely include me.

Thursday at 11. I'm feeling positve. Randall and willis will start. They'll both look class.

Channeling positive energy from here!

[Geordie]

The most public changes so far involve bringing the new props in. I don't think that will be enough in itself, although any team would benefit from bringing in Sinckler and Mako if they are fit and in form.

I really want Genge to succeed but he's only showed glimpses of what he can do in his international career so far, but replacing him with Mako is questionable given the lack of game time.

I think we saw in the autumn that Genge is still a way behind Marler and hasn't progressed anywhere near as much as he should have done, looks like a poorer player than the one first selected.

Do you not think it was just a case of everybody was poor against Scotland, so Genge didn't look great?  .

Im not sure, as i think in the Autumn etc he really hasnt brought this Baby Rhino hype that he has been getting. Ive said previously, at the moment he isnt showing that he is better than Marler in the scrum etc, and hes not as good as Mako in the loose.

I really think this 6n he needs to take that shirt by the scruff of the neck and show he is the best LH in England...

[No 7&1/2]

At the risk of sour grapes (and I know what you get away with is how it goes) he was hard done to in the scrum on a few decisions. Want to see him start again for the remaining games.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Daily Heil reporting that Mako and Sinckler return Lawes in for Hill and Ford returns, Farrell to 12 Slade at 13.

Back to what we know doesn't work.

No direct runner to straighten the line.

6 Sarries in the team and only one of them match fit............ish and none of them match sharp.

[BamBam]

Assuming that it's a Chris Foy article he's usually there or thereabouts with the team. Looks like he wants them to play themselves back into form rather than making changes, disappointing given its Italy

[TightHEAD]

Blimey 'WELL-PAST-IT' I was feeling positive this morning!

[lostinwales]

Worthwhile getting things into proportion with Genge. He's still a very good LH and hasn't looked out of place, he just has not gone all baby rhino tearing up trees. Marler and Mako are both exceptional LH's and very experienced, and Obano is pushing hard so there is plenty of competition and Genge will have to up his game.

[Geordie]

At the risk of sour grapes (and I know what you get away with is how it goes) he was hard done to in the scrum on a few decisions.  Want to see him start again for the remaining games.

7.5 i think he has huge potential, and i want him to start the rest of the 6n. But at the moment he isns showing the form we hoped. I liken it a little to Henry Slade.

[No 7&1/2]

Bar the last game I disagree. Thought the combo of him marler in the wc was great and it went pair shaped when mako was rushed back in. It's the rushing back again of vunipola which is a touch concerning.

Fingers crossed the report from the heil is wrong as well as its sounds like jones thinks what went wrong was not enough kicking.

[lostinwales]

Bar the last game I disagree. Thought the combo of him marler in the wc was great and it went pair shaped when mako was rushed back in. It's the rushing back again of vunipola which is a touch concerning.

Fingers crossed the report from the heil is wrong as well as its sounds like jones thinks what went wrong was not enough kicking.

What FFF? (The 2nd two F's standing for Ford and Farrell?)

[No 7&1/2]

Sorry not sure if I get that lost? I dont really like the 9 13 combo of youngs ford farrell slade if that's the question. I like to see in general people get a chance to bed down in the side hence previous support of Slade but I'd like to see lawrence of Odogwu in the midfield this weekend and the other on the bench.

[No 7&1/2]

From rfu


Eddie Jones has named his England team to play Italy in the Guinness Six Nations this weekend.England Senior Men

England will host Italy at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 13 February (2.15pm KO).


Mako Vunipola is back from injury at loose-head prop, with Kyle Sinckler (tight-head prop) and Luke Cowan-Dickie (hooker) also returning to the starting line-up, in the front row. Jonny Hill and Maro Itoje stay as locks.

Courtney Lawes starts at blind-side flanker, with Tom Curry continuing at open-side flanker and Billy Vunipola at No. 8.  

Captain Owen Farrell moves to inside centre, Henry Slade is at outside centre and George Ford starts at fly half.  


Jonny May is at left wing and Anthony Watson right wing. Elliot Daly will be at full back and Ben Youngs remains at scrum half.

Ben Earl, Charlie Ewels, Jamie George, Ellis Genge, Jonny Hill, Dan Robson, Will Stuart and Jack Willis are named as finishers.

Jones said: “As always, we’ve picked what we think is our strongest 23 to try and win the game.

“We’re pleased to have Mako and Kyle back into the team and we’ve made some changes to our starting XV, but our finishers are just as important to our game plan. We look at the whole 80 minutes. 

“We’ve trained very well this week, I’ve been very pleased with the players’ attitudes and work-rate. We’re hoping to put on a good performance on Saturday and kick on with our Guinness Six Nations campaign.”

England v Italy is live on ITV 1 and BBC Radio 5 Live Sports Extra.

ENGLAND

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

[BamBam]

Oh dear lord

[No 7&1/2]

That's a horrible team.

[BamBam]

We'll win easily and look great, play the same team against Wales then wonder why we look crap. Lawrence is being treated badly

[Geordie]

I give up.

[miltonkeynesengland]

Wonderful...another flat track bully team. We'll drive Italy about and could look impressive. But when we next meet a team who can front up to us physically we'll look clueless.

[RiscaGame]

His obsession with finishers is madness.

With all due respect to Italy, England at home could start a lot more form players, test them and could do a bit more than things like a 6/2 split on the bench.

[TightHEAD]

Good Cowan-Dickie is starting.

BIt depressing BillyV is in there.
Lawes at 6, against Italy he do ok, but come on!

YOUNGS, FARRELL, WTF Eddie????

[lostinwales]

F**king Ford Farrell, with Slade outside. Lawrence dropped because nobody could be bothered to pass to him. 6-2 split on the bench so no chance of any changes in the back line (I guess because they won't have to do anything anyway) given Malins likely to replace back 3 only.

Only option might be Malins to 15 Daly to 13. At least Willis is in the 23 and LCD starts, but it does feel like a depressing backwards looking team.

Of course they'll beat Italy but it could easily be a dire game to watch.

[No 7&1/2]

I can see England sitting on the top of the table come Monday but I expect the knives will be out on that selection anyway from the media in general. Not a backline to make the most use of front foot ball which is pleasing on the eye.

[Geordie]

Well all i can hope for now is that Eddie has cut off the chains and said right, start playing...

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