Foul play, pereceptions and statistics

Does anyone know of anywhere where there is a comparative set of statistics for penalties, yellow and red cards? HC would be good as its a clear comparison with the widest nations represented?

Recent discussion on here leads me to believe that foul play is viewed differently by different fans. Of course we almost all abhor the deliberate punching / kicking / stamping but even with this there are those who consider it more acceptable than others.

Then there is the area of such things as late hits and similar where some think it acceptable and others do not.

finally there is the cynical play - the worst example I know of but a while ago now was Neil Back knocking he ball out of Stringers hand at a scrum. We often see sneaky pull backs on a players jumper, blocks off kick chase runners, dives when kick chasing and so on. I have heard commentators and fans laud these actions ( if not caught by the ref) as clever play - to me its cheating and should be possible to cite for even tho its not a red card offence. I hate to see cheating lauded and people get away with it.

Part of the reason I would like comparative stats on this I believe attitudes vary between nationalities and between teams of the same nationalities with some playing "win at all costs" and others with a much more sporting intent but have nothing to back this up. I don't see much difference at international level nowadays but perhaps there is some.

How can we stop cheating that IMO spoils our game and if the teams that cheat in a cynical manner continue to get away with it and be praised for " clever play" will other teams have to play the cynical game as well?

Thoughts?

There has always been a cynical edge to rugby. Players gifted in the "dark arts" be they at scrum or breakdown are invaluable assets.

You mention Neil Back, interestingly most of the Munster team saw little wrong in what he did. I know Peter Clohessy and Mick Galway said on one of the Munster DVDs that they only lost respect when Back started trying to backtrack and apologise to fans. They made the point if their player did it then he would have been a hero.

I think that is different to serious offences. Stamping on a joint (elbow, shoulder, ankle), stamping on head, eye gouging, biting, trying to injure the "gentlemans area".

These are the big scourges.

So there in a nutshell is the difference of opinion. To me Back in that situation was a cynical cheat and should face censure for it. Others take a very different view.

I notice once again you take this subject as an opportunity for a personal attack on an (ex) england player. As you say you have a very clear bias and agenda in this issue clouding your perception of which nationalities are dirty cheats and which are shining examples of humanity.


Holding a player back can be cited btw.

Peter - not at all - I very carefully did not mention teams / nationalities at all. Its nothing to do with bias. The Neil Back incident was the clearest example I could think of that most folk would know. Neil Back now coaches in Scotland indeed for Edinburgh my team.

Do not see bias everywhere. It often does not exist. Where did I state "which nationalities are dirty cheats and which are shining examples of humanity" Where did I make a personal attack on Back?


Infact the reason I asked for stats was to help sort out in my head what is perception and what is true.

Can players really be cited for pulling back? I have never heard of anyone being cited for it and my understanding you can only be cited for red card offenses.

Edit

I am genuinly interested in attitudes towrds cynical play and hpe for some stats on it

TJ wrote:So there in a nutshell is the difference of opinion. To me Back in that situation was a cynical cheat and should face censure for it. Others take a very different view.

Allan quinlan was an expert in knocking the ball out of the hands of the SH, so it would be rather hypocritical of Munster players to censure Back for doing it.

Back cheated - and frankly it was stupid. If seen he would have conceded a penalty that would have been kicked and Munster (who never looked likely to score a try) would have been just 3 points down.

Thing is though rugby players, especially forwards are cheating through out the game - usually cynically. We see it at scrums, illegal binding, dropping it, wheeling; we see it at ruck and maul. Deliberatley breaking the laws in this way is common place and I see no difference or gradation in the offence.

Foul play is a different matter. There is quite clearly a big difference between pushing someone away with an open hand to the face and digging a thumb deep into the eye socket. Both can get charged with illegal contact with the face in and around the eyes - but are very different.

Interesting London tiger I had never seen it done before. Here is another example - in the Scotland / Italy game the Italian try was scored thru a gap created by one of the scottish forwards being held into the scrum after the ball had gone. Clear cynical fould but not seen by the refs. No sanction applied afterwards. This sort of thing is commonplace and IMO spoils the game. How can it be stopped or does it not matter? Cynical cheating or clever play?

A certain amount of cynical play will always happen, and every team does it. Sadly it can never be seen every time but I woul prefer that refs would come down hard on it wherever possible.

Instead what often get is a player reacts to cynical play (such as being held back or kept down on the ground) and is instead the player punished.

Players are coached to commit as much as they can get away with - and we talk about playing to the ref ie cheat as much as you can get away with.

ATM citing is only for things that in the view of the citing commisioner deserved a red card - (i think) so nothing currently can be done afterwards. Perhaps we should start giving retrospective yellows and all unions should enforce the rule that 3 yellows in a season means a 1 match ban.

Of course we would start to see rather a lot of players missing matches.

Retrospective yellows for this sort of offence? The tugging back and blocking type of cynical but not dangerous offenses?

would this just make every game a host of events to be discussed afterwards or would it lead to a cleaner game?

I just hate to see this sort of cynical cheating and my idea would be for the commentators and fans to condemn it not describe it as clever play. Peer pressure might do some good. No one likes to be labelled a cynical cheat

TJ wrote:I hate to see cheating lauded and people get away with it.

Maybe rugby isn't the game for you?

There's a certain naivety in thinking that cynical play is confined to isolated incidents. You could argue that the game is run on cynical play - the whole ruck area, the main contest area for possession in our game, is predicated on a contest for the ball that for the majority of the time is only done to slow down the opposition. The fact that players can tackle, wait momentarily (how long depends on the ref) and then roll away is cynical. The fact that we have 'interpretations' of rules allows players to be cynical.

I reckon there is some sort of cynical play at every phase of play, both defensively and offensively. Whether it's taking time to roll away from the tackle, or just being a few inches offside when the defensive line advances, or dummy running (allowed but surely 'cynical' as it's designed to make the opposition tackle the wrong player), different tactics at the scrum such as binding wrongly and wheeling and driving across the scrum, etc., etc. It would be impossible to pick all of this up in a game, and thus it is able to happen. Fans then get shi*ty when one of these cynical actions is picked up by the cameras but not by the ref, and it leads to a score or a win, regardless of the fact that their own team has been doing it too. Never has there been a team that is always onside, always scrummaging square and straight, never running dummy runners and blocks, never having lazy runners, never standing in the goal kicker's line and moving about, etc. It's just not the game.

I do have a problem with players who try to con the referee into awarding a penalty. When Brian Moore saw Morgan Parra take a histrionic dive during the England match, he said he wanted that kind of football-tendency erdicated.

He has a very short memory. Forwards regularly dived out of lineouts during his playing time and well before it. Perhaps the most famous is incident is Andy Haden against Wales at Cardiff. How did the great man regard his action when asked about it during last year's Autumn Internationals?

"It was the only way to be able to conjure up a victory...And I've lived with it and I don't regret it because that's what you do for your team - you do whatever comes into your mind at the time."