Ireland owe ROG

First topic message reminder :

The O'Gara debate has recently come to my attention more-so than ever. On facebook there is a 'Rugby Banter page' and the creators are quite clearly Irish. It's a fun page full of international fans and lighthearted banter. However this evening the banter has been put to one side so the administrators could vent their frustrations about the treatment of Ronan O'Gara.

ROG not included in the Irish squad for France. Probably signals imminent retirement. That botched kick against Scotland wasn't the way for him to go, kind of sad.

Appalling act by Kidney.. He's made a few questionable choices in his time as Irish manager! I've a feeling ROG would have called time on his glittering career anyway at the end of this season. He should have been afforded that opportunity by Kidney! I know there will be many delighted to see the back of him but despite what any of you say about O Gara he owes Irish Rugby nothing.. There's a lot of Irish players with a triple crown medal in their arse pockets with no small thanks to ROG! If this is indeed the end ROG you've served us well!!

To an extent I agree. This was poor management by Ireland head coach Kidney. Should ROG have been picked in any of Irelands match day squads for this years 6 Nations? Probably not. But would ROG ever say no to a call-up for his country? His experience around guys like Madigan and Jackson would be useful, so I agree with him in the overall squad. He's been criticised a lot lately for Ireland and Munster. I think he's got another good year with the Provincial set-up at least before he calls it a day for good. Munster aren't playing well under Penney and not only O'Gara should be held accountable. This is likely his final season with the Ireland national team though.

As the quote says and like we all know, a lot of Irishmen have 6 Nations, domestic and european medals and it is largely down to O'Gara. Of course he is no one-man team but you can't deny that without his calmness, intelligence and pinpoint accuracy none of this would have been achieved. ROG doesn't owe Ireland, Ireland owe ROG. Should he get one final game so he can bow out the way he would want to? IMO Yes; It should be a home game, (against France? Perhaps that's another debate in itself) outside the 6 Nations if needs be against decent opposition at Lansdowne Road (Aviva Stadium). Let him come on the pitch in the latter half to a standing ovation and earn his final cap hopefully rounded off with a win. Allow him to walk off the pitch to thunderous applause and allow Ireland to show him the gratitude for his years of service that he deserves.

Sin é wrote:

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Is Sexton definataly ruled out then Sin? Haven't seen the press conference

He is. Bent & Archer have just arrived in camp so they hadn't decided yet between them for the bench spot.

Cheers

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:There were some questions at the press conference about whether O'Gara would be available for selection if Jackson or whoever got injured.

Kidney replied that it is part of every contracted player that they have to make themselves available to the Ireland if they are requested.

That is fairly obvious really. The only thing that would prevent this is if ROG announced his retirement but then why would he when he will continue to get paid.

Its not that obvious. Lots of people suggesting that ROG should retire from international rugby. He can't if he wants to continue playing pro rugby. The obviously changed the contracts after David Humphreys retirement to stop that happening again. Think about it - Denis Hickie retired completely, Shane Horgan retired completely, Alan Quinlan, Anthony Foley retired completely. None of them announced international retirements because they could not.

Prepare yourselves for BOD not retiring either unless he retires completely from the game.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:There were some questions at the press conference about whether O'Gara would be available for selection if Jackson or whoever got injured.

Kidney replied that it is part of every contracted player that they have to make themselves available to the Ireland if they are requested.

That is fairly obvious really. The only thing that would prevent this is if ROG announced his retirement but then why would he when he will continue to get paid.

Its not that obvious. Lots of people suggesting that ROG should retire from international rugby. He can't if he wants to continue playing pro rugby. The obviously changed the contracts after David Humphreys retirement to stop that happening again. Think about it - Denis Hickie retired completely, Shane Horgan retired completely, Alan Quinlan, Anthony Foley retired completely. None of them announced international retirements because they could not.

Prepare yourselves for BOD not retiring either unless he retires completely from the game.

You do love a good conspiracy theroy. In all fairness though you are just guessing.

"I think the Yellow Card was a bit harsh tbh (I'm not complaining about it, just I wouldn't worry about it).

Massive improvement from Archer in a year though (considering he was yellow carded last year for his own safety)."



Seemed like a straight yellow to me, but no, it's not something to get too hung up about unless it's consistent, I agree. I'm not sure who I would pick between Archer and Bent, and would be delighted for either one to have a great game against the French.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:There were some questions at the press conference about whether O'Gara would be available for selection if Jackson or whoever got injured.

Kidney replied that it is part of every contracted player that they have to make themselves available to the Ireland if they are requested.

That is fairly obvious really. The only thing that would prevent this is if ROG announced his retirement but then why would he when he will continue to get paid.

Its not that obvious. Lots of people suggesting that ROG should retire from international rugby. He can't if he wants to continue playing pro rugby. The obviously changed the contracts after David Humphreys retirement to stop that happening again. Think about it - Denis Hickie retired completely, Shane Horgan retired completely, Alan Quinlan, Anthony Foley retired completely. None of them announced international retirements because they could not.

Prepare yourselves for BOD not retiring either unless he retires completely from the game.

You do love a good conspiracy theroy. In all fairness though you are just guessing.

Kidney just said it at a press conference. Its part of every players contract to make themselves available for Ireland when requested.

Only two players have retired from international rugby in the last few years - one is David Humphreys and the other is Geordan Murphy (who isn't contracted to the IRFU for his day job).

Brian O'Driscoll could negotiate a new contract without that provision with Leinster IF the IRFU approve it. They would need to make a special dispensation.

I think it's a mistaken view, though I can see the logic in it. But there comes a time when a player has contributed all he can internationally and yet can still make a contribution for his province. This should be encouraged, albeit in certain positions it should be treated the same as a province having an NIQ. i.e. 10 and 3

Notch wrote:Brian O'Driscoll could negotiate a new contract without that provision with Leinster IF the IRFU approve it. They would need to make a special dispensation.

I think it's a mistaken view, though I can see the logic in it. But there comes a time when a player has contributed all he can internationally and yet can still make a contribution for his province. This should be encouraged, albeit in certain positions it should be treated the same as a province having an NIQ. i.e. 10 and 3

All well and good what a player might think, but the IRFU want to keep control of their employees. T a certain extent I think its a good thing. It means that no player becomes bigger than the jersey they borrow.

Sin é wrote:It means that no player becomes bigger than the jersey they borrow.

13 has........... whether we like it or not.

The 13 inhabitant has become much bigger than the number he wears in this country at least. And in other nations there are different numbers but equally bigger souls filling them, or having filled them. That's sport, that's the history of sport, that's how legends are created and that's one of the very reasons people watch sport. Number 13 in this country will be shorthand for a human name well into this century and perhaps even beyond.

I agree, and thats exactly the issue with O'Gara. Some in the media view him as bigger than the jersey he occupies.

just arrange a testimonital in the summer for him to play in while others are off with the Lions?

Don't have a problem with the idea in theory, in practice all the major rugby nations have arranged fixtures for the international window including Ireland!

We'll be on tour in North America. That tour will represent a good chance to bed in new players. Most likely be Jackson and Madigan at 10 then as well.

Sin é wrote:
Only two players have retired from international rugby in the last few years - one is David Humphreys and the other is Geordan Murphy (who isn't contracted to the IRFU for his day job).

Thought David Humphries retired about 10 years ago?

No a bad team considering Gilory, Bowe, Zebo, D'Arcy, Sexton, POC, Ferris and Strauss are missing from the first team squad.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Only two players have retired from international rugby in the last few years - one is David Humphreys and the other is Geordan Murphy (who isn't contracted to the IRFU for his day job).

Thought David Humphries retired about 10 years ago?

2006 Internationally. 2008 from Ulster.

Geordan Murphy is the only player to retire internationally since Humphreys who continued to play club rugby.

Girvan Dempsey, Shane Horgan, Peter Stringer, Leo Cullen didn't retire internationally - they just didn't get picked.

tigertattie wrote:just arrange a testimonital in the summer for him to play in while others are off with the Lions?

TBH, I don't think O'Gara would want it. He didn't even get to run out first for his 100th cap. Very low key.

BOD said on a Christmas time special on Sky that he could play for Leinster if he retired internationally it was more that he wouldn't want to. He said he'd hate seeing lads go off to play for Ireland if he was stuck in a mid 6 Nations Rabo league game

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:BOD said on a Christmas time special on Sky that he could play for Leinster if he retired internationally it was more that he wouldn't want to. He said he'd hate seeing lads go off to play for Ireland if he was stuck in a mid 6 Nations Rabo league game

I imagine at Christmas he thought he would continue to captain Ireland until he retired from international rugby.

Technically he would be making himself like a NIQ player - maybe Leinster could keep him as one of their 4 NIQ players next season?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:BOD said on a Christmas time special on Sky that he could play for Leinster if he retired internationally it was more that he wouldn't want to. He said he'd hate seeing lads go off to play for Ireland if he was stuck in a mid 6 Nations Rabo league game

Correct...and who would blame him?

If International moves away from him then the idea that Leinster still needs him becomes redundant. If there are better 13 selections than him amongst the Provinces (and one of them must be playing for Ireland at least) then Leinster too will want to compete at that level and he won't really be needed then.
He's beginning to be the old boy still at school anyway- after having repeated his Leaving a few times!! He's beginning to feel like his generation have already moved on to the next stage in life and he's left behind. His leaving won't be long now - new horizons are too promising.

It's frankly ridiculous that a player can't "retire" from Test rugby, and still play for their province.

Players of that standing know exactly what is expected at Test level and acknowledge when they can't meet it any more. So if they can't retire they're left with the choice of ignominious humiliation on the pitch ala ROG or career ending injury like Wallace, Leamy, Flannery etc.? I don't believe even the IRFU are that stupid.


Archer is the biggest penalty culprit at Munster this season, which isn't a great stat for a Tight Head. Were those conceded in the loose or the set piece?

Jackson injury is news to me. ROG could get his last song!

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/178241.html

...and did it........................... MY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


O'D: "Yeah, ROG, another miskick at the end just when we were winning! Thanks a bunch!"

Mils Muliaina was the incument fullback in the 2011 World Cup. Got dropped on his 99th test cap. Absolutely no room for sentiment. O'Gara shouldn't be picked and can't be blamed for his continued selection. Compare Stephen Jones and ROG and I'd take Jones' option every time. At least people could still think he might have offered more instead of realising he had nothing left. The best thing ROG could hope for is being dropped from the squad altogether and that's what's happened. Shame it came too late.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Mils Muliaina was the incument fullback in the 2011 World Cup. Got dropped on his 99th test cap. Absolutely no room for sentiment. O'Gara shouldn't be picked and can't be blamed for his continued selection. Compare Stephen Jones and ROG and I'd take Jones' option every time. At least people could still think he might have offered more instead of realising he had nothing left. The best thing ROG could hope for is being dropped from the squad altogether and that's what's happened. Shame it came too late.

I already made the comparison to MM and yes I agree you on the rest.

I dont think its sad because lets face it we can all remember the great times when ROG was one of our greatest ever and even if his career has petered out we wont forget those better days.

Seems Muliaina has 100 caps (and he got a world cup medal as well - so there was a bit of sentiment)!

On the 9th of October 2011 during the 2011 Rugby World Cup, Muliaina played his 100th game for the All Blacks after starting at fullback against Argentina. During the game Muliaina was forced from the field at half time due to him injuring his shoulder. This was later revealed to have been fractured, meaning he was dropped from the New Zealand World Cup squad. Muliaina retired from the All Blacks squad the following day on the 10th of October 2011 after achieving his 100th Test cap and returned on the 23rd of October 2011 to claim his deserved gold medal after the All Blacks won the 2011 Rugby World Cup Final.

Stephen Jones situation isn't the same as O'Garas. Jones can't make it at Wasps, ROG is still first choice for Munster who are in the HC QFs. I'd say the difference between O'Gara & a lot of his contemporaries is that they lacked the incredible drive he has.

Bernard Jackman (who coaches in France) has an article this week on O'Gara - he says if he wanted, he'd get a gig in France as they really rate him because of his "Balls".

That is one of the greatest things about O'Gara. He definitley had balls. Unlike a lot of Irish players in the past he wasnt afraid to aim high and wasnt intimidated by any other nation or team.

GunsGerms wrote:That is one of the greatest things about O'Gara. He definitley had balls. Unlike a lot of Irish players in the past he wasnt afraid to aim high and wasnt intimidated by any other nation or team.

are you suggesting old O'Gara was a natural ball kicker, Guns????? You sully his good name, sir! He never had an eye for nobbling jewels!

He got his 100th cap against Canada sin e where carter captained the side because most of the test squad were being rested. He was effectively dropped for dagg and only played again because of rotation. Giving him a World Cup medal wasn't sentiment. Same for Dan carter. Because they were in the squad and not the final.

Sean Fitzpatrick gave up the world record for consecutive matches as a forward and demoted himself to the bench. Like I said its kidney's fault for selecting a player who has passed his use by date. His replacements are green and shaky but they have a future ahead of them. Rog only has his past. Bod is on his last legs but rog is like the knight on the bridge in the python movie.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:That is one of the greatest things about O'Gara. He definitley had balls. Unlike a lot of Irish players in the past he wasnt afraid to aim high and wasnt intimidated by any other nation or team.

are you suggesting old O'Gara was a natural ball kicker, Guns????? You sully his good name, sir! He never had an eye for nobbling jewels!

Well there was that incident with Roncero.........

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:That is one of the greatest things about O'Gara. He definitley had balls. Unlike a lot of Irish players in the past he wasnt afraid to aim high and wasnt intimidated by any other nation or team.

are you suggesting old O'Gara was a natural ball kicker, Guns????? You sully his good name, sir! He never had an eye for nobbling jewels!

Well there was that incident with Roncero.........

Anyone read Leo Cullen's biography? He tells of his first encounter with an 18 year old George North who he tried to tackle for the first time. Basically North steamrolled him and stood on Cullens testicles and split them. Cullen was rolling around in agony. The ref approached him and he showed him the damage. Then the docs came on and stitched him up on the side of the pitch.

My bad. My memory must have suffered from the post final drinking bonanza. Could've sworn he played the Canada game. Must be confusing him and carter. Anyway muliaina was no mug even then and dagg was a gamble. But sometimes you have to draw the line between experience and promise. With all rog's experience you have to have an eye for the future. Look at the centre combination as well as fly half.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:My bad. My memory must have suffered from the post final drinking bonanza. Could've sworn he played the Canada game. Must be confusing him and carter. Anyway muliaina was no mug even then and dagg was a gamble. But sometimes you have to draw the line between experience and promise. With all rog's experience you have to have an eye for the future. Look at the centre combination as well as fly half.

I thought Mils only got back in for his 100th because Dagg was carrying a knock? Dagg had already been picked ahead of him for the bigger pool games (France etc), and there had been talk in the media that Mils was going to wind up stranded on 99.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He got his 100th cap against Canada sin e where carter captained the side because most of the test squad were being rested. He was effectively dropped for dagg and only played again because of rotation. Giving him a World Cup medal wasn't sentiment. Same for Dan carter. Because they were in the squad and not the final.

Sean Fitzpatrick gave up the world record for consecutive matches as a forward and demoted himself to the bench. Like I said its kidney's fault for selecting a player who has passed his use by date. His replacements are green and shaky but they have a future ahead of them. Rog only has his past. Bod is on his last legs but rog is like the knight on the bridge in the python movie.

According to scrum.com he started against Canada on 2nd October and he started against Argentina for his 100th cap on 9th October 2011.

They mention that its his 100th cap against Argentina in the match commentary.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/14235.html?class=1;template=results;type=player;view=match

Dan Carter's absence is still dominating the headlines but in his place comes Colin Slade - although inexperienced in terms of caps - the fly-half has the ability to unlock even the most battle-hardened off defences ......
08:22

In team news - for the Kiwis - Fullback Mils Muliaina will win his 100th Test cap and becomes only the second All Black to reach the milestone following captain Richie McCaw who returns to the starting XV after missing last week's Test against Canada with a sore foot.

Sorry - but you kiwis are a sentimental lot after all

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:My bad. My memory must have suffered from the post final drinking bonanza. Could've sworn he played the Canada game. Must be confusing him and carter. Anyway muliaina was no mug even then and dagg was a gamble. But sometimes you have to draw the line between experience and promise. With all rog's experience you have to have an eye for the future. Look at the centre combination as well as fly half.

I thought Mils only got back in for his 100th because Dagg was carrying a knock? Dagg had already been picked ahead of him for the bigger pool games (France etc), and there had been talk in the media that Mils was going to wind up stranded on 99.

I think its only the Welsh do sentiment.

Peter Stringer has been left hanging on 98 caps. ROG didn't lead out the team for his 100th cap and he would have been only the 2nd or 3rd Irish player to make a 100 (BOD & John Hayes).

I don't think rog is being picked on sentiment. He's being picked because kidney doesn't see any options much like life after bod. That can quickly change. We didn't know what we'd do without carter and now we have options there. But that involves chancing your arm on new players and the time has come for that. He can always buy a cake and bouncy castle if rog wants to go out in style.