v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Group 7

Yesterday’s first group was won by Pele with 52% of the vote, joining him in the last 16 is human fish Michael Phelps who banked 25% of the vote, exiting the tournament at this stage is Martina Navratilova and Phil ‘The Power’ Taylor who only managed 14 votes between them.

The second group of the day was a much tighter affair with both Usain Bolt and Jack Nicklaus securing 23 votes each with Borg and Senna totalling 9 between them.

In penultimate group of round 2 tennis, golf, boxing and Ice Hockey compete for your votes.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted.

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by Adam D

"So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a ""great"" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as ""the greatest closer in history"" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT.
"

Wayne Gretzky- Ice Hockey - Championed by Azzy Mahmood

"If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.
In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.
In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky."

Henry Armstrong- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

"It's probably the case that for all but the more historically minded posters from the boxing forum, Henry Armstrong is going to be a bit of a mystery name. However, ""Homicide Hank"" has every right to be considered in this process and his exploits known to a wider audience. Armstrong might not be a household name but amongst keen boxing historians, he's pretty much a universal pick in the top 5 pound for pound fighters of all time. The respected IBRO picked him as the third greatest fighter of all time (Sugar Ray Robinson and Harry Greb took the top 2 spots).

Having turned pro in 1931, Armstrong fought frequently (he'd eventually rack up 181 fights by the time he retired) mostly with great success until in 1937 his career really took off. Incredibly so! Henry fought 27 times in 1937. 27!!! Unthinkable now when the top fighters barely manage three fights in a year. In the first 22 of those 27 fights he won 21 of them by knockout. In the 23rd fight he knocked out reigning champion, Petey Sarron in the 6th round to win the featherweight world title. He won his remaining four fights of 1937 with four more knockouts. So across 27 fights in 1937, Armstrong won 27 times and 26 of those victories came by knockout. Added to that he now had the featherweight title belt in his possession. A truly incredible year but Armstrong was about to surpass it. What Armstrong did in 1938 is simply the greatest calendar year any boxer has ever had. Harry Greb's 1922 is amazing but Armstrong's 1938 is staggering and almost beyond comprehension.

Homicide Hank managed 14 wins out of 14 fights in 1938 - all while he was still reigning featherweight champion. He'd continue the run of knockouts he's accumulated in 1937 by knocking out his first 7 opponents of the year (including future champion, Chalky Wright). In his 8th fights of the year, the very good Baby Arizmendi would see the final bell to end the run of knockouts but not the run of victories. However, Armstrong's finest moments were just around the corner. Armstrong jumped up a couple of weight divisions to challenge the great welterweight champion Barney Ross. Armstrong weighing in at less than the lightweight limit comprehensively beat the great Ross over 15 rounds to add the welterweight title to his featherweight title. Not satisfied with this, Armstrong immediately challenged the excellent lightweight champion Lou Ambers. Armstrong would take the title courtesy of a split decision and became the first person to ever hold three different world titles at different weights concurrently. In an era when there were only eight different weight divisions, Armstrong held nearly half of the available belts on offer.

Much has been made of Manny Pacquiao’s weight hopping exploits over the last few years and whilst what Manny has done has been impressive, it pales in comparison to Armstrong’s exploits. Armstrong gathered almost half of the available weight belts in less than 12 months and did so by beating the best men in each weight class. There were no weight stipulations imposed on his opponents and Armstrong would take the welterweight title whilst weighing in as a lightweight.

Although Armstrong would contentiously lose the lightweight title in a rematch with Ambers, he would go on to defend the welterweight title several times and would have a pop at the middleweight title (which he would have won but for the judges dubiously scoring his fight with Cerefino Garcia a draw). He'd eventually lose the welterweight title in 1940 to Fritzie Zivic but he would continue to fight until 1945.

Armstrong would finish with a record of 150 wins (101 knockouts) from his 181 fights but it's the period between 1937 and 1940 that truly stands out. From 1937 to late 1940, he lost only one fight. His record against topflight competition during this time was 59 wins, 1defeat and 1 draw with 51 knockouts. He scored 27 straight knockouts during 1937-1938. It's arguable that during that 3 year period, Armstrong was the greatest and most dominant sportsman on the planet.

Let ‘s turn to the excellent Monte Cox to get a picture of what Armstrong was like in the ring:

""Armstrong was a marvel of the ring. He worked at a fast pace, had quick hands and unlike most fighters seemed to pick up speed as the rounds went on. He was also a strong puncher and defensively his bob and weave style kept him from receiving the full impact of his opponent’s blows. The truth of Henry Armstrong is that he had much better boxing skills than some give him credit for.

Most fighters tried to run from Henry, but he never let them get away. He stuck to his opponent’s like superglue and drove them into a corner or trapped them against the ropes and them proceeded to give them a good pasting. Fighters who tried to stand their ground against Hank had difficulty keeping up with his work rate. He would overwhelm them until they were forced to back up and then he would chase them down, pounding away until they were beaten men.

Upon his death it was discovered that Armstrong’s heart was a third larger than that of the average person. This allowed him to fight at a ferocious pace for 15 rounds without loss of breath. It seems certain that he could have done the same thing in a 20 round bout.""

Armstrong won't be the most celebrated name of the 64 men and women that will be considered in this process, but there should be no doubt that he is fully deserving of his place among the greatest sports stars that the world has ever seen.
"

9 CHINS for me..

Talked about him so much I am bored ,,, Just vote for him lads..

Not such a strong group as the other today - I'd put 3 of the guys there ahead of any of this quartet.

However, I'm going for Gretsky on the grounds that he is the only one of these 4 who is clearly the GOAT of his sport.

Woods probably best of the rest, but he still has a little to go to match Jack's legacy even if his peak was probably better (relative to contemporary opposition) than Nicklaus's.

Laver for me. Still the tennis GOAT and a fine role model.

Woods lags several shots behind Nicklaus with doubts as to his future play as well as his character.

Armstrong deserved to get the last 32 (aided by a tremendous write up from superfly) but is some way off being the boxing GOAT and will almost certainly have to bow out here.

I'm surprised Gretzky has got this far. Clearly a successful player but in a minority sport with little following in most parts of the world which must have a bearing as we get to the business end of this contest.

Gretzky wins this for me. i remember him being the best when i was growing up, didnt realise he was so much better than the rest though (great write up Azzy). Ill be honest, Woods probably would have got my vote but for his activities off the course. I cant bring myself to vote for a man with such low moral standards. Of the other 2, Laver IMO is 2nd to Fed as tennis GOAT and Armstrong, while his career stats are impressive, isnt the boxing GOAT.

Woods in this lot

Went for Woods.

Gretsky hands down for me, so dominant in his sport. Yes, it may not have global appeal (though like basketball we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that just because GB have little interest it's a minority sport), but Gretsky stands out miles ahead of the rest. Surprised to see Woods doing so well, I have it very tight for second place.

suprised by woods doing well with gretsky!

i think even in north america it would be a close thing!!

Gretzky - The Great One

guildfordbat wrote:Armstrong deserved to get the last 32 (aided by a tremendous write up from superfly) but is some way off being the boxing GOAT and will almost certainly have to bow out here.

Really? I'm not sure "some way off" is fair. He may not be the Boxing GOAT, but on the basis of fly's write up he should certainly be a close contender. I'd never heard of him before, but not even Ali or Robinson can claim to have a record like that. Defending titles at three weight categories simultaneously? OK, different times, but the sheer numbers of fights, wins and KOs suggests to me that he deserves to be better known.

kwinigolfer wrote:Gretzky - The Great One

not surprising kwini considering your anti-Woods bias.

Polls like this really test my faith in democracy.

incontinentia wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Gretzky - The Great One

not surprising kwini considering your anti-Woods bias.

Polls like this really test my faith in democracy.

I don't see why? Gretzky is quite clearly the GOAT of his sport which is more global then I gave it credit for before this competition started. Woods still lagging behind Jack and not looking likely to catch him now. Both transcended their sports although Woods for some of the wrong reasons!

Poorfour wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Armstrong deserved to get the last 32 (aided by a tremendous write up from superfly) but is some way off being the boxing GOAT and will almost certainly have to bow out here.

Really? I'm not sure "some way off" is fair. He may not be the Boxing GOAT, but on the basis of fly's write up he should certainly be a close contender. I'd never heard of him before, but not even Ali or Robinson can claim to have a record like that. Defending titles at three weight categories simultaneously? OK, different times, but the sheer numbers of fights, wins and KOs suggests to me that he deserves to be better known.

Armstrong certainly had a period of supreme dominance but I'm not so sure about his overall career record. I believe about a sixth of Armstrong's fights were lost or drawn, about 30 fights in total. I would have expected several to be ahead of him when it comes to the boxing GOAT; particularly, Robinson, Ali and Louis and perhaps Johnson and Dempsey off the top of my head

Armstrong has Robinson ahead of him and that's pretty much it, Johnson, Louis and Dempsey are nowhere him.

Has to be noted that a lot of his losses and draws were in the early part of his career and by virtue of being a whirlwind fighter his time at the top was always going to be short but what a peak it was, three simultaneous world titles.

incontinent,
Not at all. More years ago than anyone cares to remember I was on my first flight to the US and was captivated by a story in Sports Illustrated magazine about this young lad playing for the Indianapolis Racers in the old WHA.

I followed his move to Edmonton and, thanks to the excellence of Hockey Night In Canada, his Oilers career. Quite simply the man is a genius, eyes in the back of his head, brilliant with the stick and read the game like Bobby Moore did at West Ham a decade before. No-one saw the ice like him. Fortunately I was able to watch him play - breathtaking skills yet always seemed to play within himself, seldom on the edge, and was effective defensively just as surely as he was a free-scorer and maker of goals.

His records speak for themselves.

But quite apart from all that, he's humble, almost a reluctant supersuperstar, has contributed selflessly to "hockey" (even the one-time sponsor of a Nationwide golf tournament) and has been an inspiration and example to tens of millions. Accessible to the public, not surrounded by bodyguards and commercial hoopla, just the same down-to-earth lad from Brantford that he was forty years ago, playing hockey on frozen pond.

I'll leave it to others to assess his qualities relative to the kings and queens of other sports, but the Great One is the Great One because of his influence on and off the ice.

He's certainly in the top four among G.O.A.T's for me; very unlikely that I would put a golfer, any golfer, on that pedestal.

Kwini - I'm obviously going to have to check this Gretzky gentleman out.

Coming from a similar era before the invention of football (or at least the birth of SKY tv which most equate as being the same thing) we seem to share much similar knowledge and views. However, Gretzky is toally new to me. I did fear you were having a senior moment when you chose him over Sobers in an earlier round. Assuming you weren't, that together with your comments on this thread is a heck of an endorsement!

Thanks guildford,
Gretzky is as special as Sir Garfield.
But I fear Sir Don wins the cricketing laurels, despite my personal preference (which might have him usurped by Roy Marshall).

PS: Not only do we share some sporting appreciations, but I remember eating at the Mill Stream about forty+ years ago!

Least Did I expect Rod Laver gonna bow out.

How can 9Chins and Gretsky both have the same number of votes but different percentages of the vote? It's a fix I tell thee.

he he

Its rounded up for 9 chins the leader

For me its between Gretzky and armstrong (Golf and tennis are only non contact sports).

Armstrong didnt dominate his sport at the highest level like Grezky has, hence my vote goes to the Canadian.

Personally think Gretzky wins this one.
Undoubtedly the G.O.A.T. of his sport, something that cannot be said of any of his competitors here. And is ice hockey truly that much of a niche/minority sport? 72 members of the IIHF would suggest that it's quite a widespread sport, even if the standard of hockey played might not be that high in all of those countries.

Armstrong defended the welterweight title a record 18 times so save to say he dominated as does his 3 simultaneous world titles, not many have dominated the sport to that degree.

Are some of the Wayne Gretzky votes anti golf votes?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Armstrong defended the welterweight title a record 18 times so save to say he dominated as does his 3 simultaneous world titles, not many have dominated the sport to that degree.

By not dominating the sport, I meant in relation to the higher weight divisions.

McLaren wrote:Are some of the Wayne Gretzky votes anti golf votes?

Nah, More like pro contact sports.

I expect the Woods votes are pro-golf votes far more than the Gretzky votes being anti golf ones.