Scots v Ireland: Who Will Have More Lions?

I have a gnawing worry that Ireland may be the least represented nation on the Lions panel this year.

We will probably see Healy, Best, Ryan, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Kearney but outside of that the cupboard looks bare either due to injury (O'Connell, Ferris, Bowe, Zebo).

With a number of Scots looking good enough to tour - Grant, Ford, Gray, Brown, Beattie, Laidlaw, Hogg, Visser, Maitland and maybe even even E.Murray or Rennie it has me wondering will the Irish have the least players on this Lions Tour?

Personally I don't think there's a great difference between the four nations, even though England are on a winning run at present I don't believe they a that far ahead of Wales and Ireland, and Scotland are not far of the pace either now.

I think England will provide the most but it will be closeish to a 1/4 comes from each nation, England slighlty more, Scotland slightly less.

So whereas you are worried we may have least represention, whoever it is will still be well represented, and won't be like last time when Scotland only had 4 players.

Scots. Should

Tradition means Ireland will still have (and I repeat Gatland will want to prove to IRFU what Irish players can really do under his system - his personal history and all)

But I won't be worrying at less places for Irish players. Ireland are doing a tour, aren't they? Maybe they'd like to play for them, if they're not too busy

Ireland will have more
Healy- starting lion
Best- starting lion
O'Brien- match day squad
Heaslip- mid week player
Sexton- starting lion
O'Driscoll-starting lion / match day squad
Kearney- Mid week player

Scotland
Grant- wont travel
Ford- wont travel
Gray-Starting lion
Brown-mid week player
Beattie- wont travel
Laidlaw- wont travel/mid week player
Hogg-mid week player
Visser-starting lion
Maitland- better not bloomin travel !

It would be a massive surprise if Scotland did get more than Ireland. In fact I would be surprised if there were more than 5 Scots on the plane - there will definitely be more Irish than that.

Whether that shoudl be the case or not, well, see the debates from the thousands of Lions articles over the past 6 months...!

Personally I'd love Laidlaw to start for the Lions. I think he would be a great scrumhalf with Danny Care on the bench.

Prefer them to Phillips, Youngs et al.

I don't know about starting Stag but I'd love Laidlaw to tour. He has such a good mentality and is a real natural rugby player and reader of the game - he would thrive in that environment.

I think Ireland will have more, Gatland will go for the 'class is permanent' approach.
Of course things could all change in the next 2 games, if Scotland lose both, the likes of Hogg, Beattie etc might find their stars diminishing. Whereas if Irealnd lose, you would think space would still be found for the likes of Sexton, Heaslip, O'Brien etc.

Scotland should certainly have more players than they have provided in recent tours though. I like the look of Laidlaw too stag, a good all round footballer, I think it helps having played at 10 too, gives him some knowledge of the 'wider picture' rather than just his own role at 9.

One player I would love to see there is Ross Rennie, and it is bitterly disappointing he has been out injured since the AIs.

He is another player who would thrive in that environment and it is desperately unlucky he has been injured in this 6N - there's no stand out 7 just now and if he had similar performances to last year he would be a shoo in.

I know there's plenty other injured players who can count themselves unlucky from all nations but I'm gutted for Rennie.

The one Irish "cert" I'd question at present is Jamie Heaslip. He just hasn't impressed me in this 6 Nations.

I think Ireland will still have more though. Best, Healy, SOB, Sexton, Bowe (if fit) and Kearney would you'd think go, and Ross, Ryan, POC, Heaslip, Murray, BOD, Zebo and Earls would also have a chance you'd think.

For me Scotland have more in the "have a chance" category (Murray, Ford, Grant, Hamilton, Brown, Rennie (if fit), Beattie, Laidlaw, Scott, Visser, Maitland and Hogg) and less in the "will go" (basically just Richie Gray) category. The numbers could be close, but I think Ireland are more likely to have the larger representation.

RDW

What chance of Rennie being fit? If he's back playing in the next few weeks he could still be a viable option as a more 'fetcher' type 7.

However, as for the no stand-out 7s, have you not noticed the number on the back of Robshaw's jersey as he has taken the man of the match awards in England's last two games? Looks to me like he is doing all the things a 7 should be, in terms of involvement at the breakdown, linking play, making tackles and generally being a bleedin nuisance to his opponents.

One silly moment sticks in my mind from Eng Fra. Big ruck - I think somewhere around the midway line. Ball comes out for Fra and they punt down the line. And there is Robshaw to catch the ball next to the touchline some 20m+ away from the ruck. I was thinking wtf is he doing there? He runs around carrying a ball magnet.

Yeah Robshaw has been good and is my bet for Captain.

I was more meaning some of the other big names haven’t quite been dominating this year – it is wide open for the other spots.

The Rennie injury has been massively frustrating – there has literally been no communication from the SRU about his injury, which is strange because they do it for everyone else!

Literally have no clue when he’ll be back. There’s 2 weeks until the Ulster game so I’m hoping beyond hope that his name will be on the team sheet. He’ll then have 6 games to prove his fitness.

I’d probably take one of the 7s who has played in the 6N over him, but there may be some injuries between now and then.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Rennie injury has been massively frustrating – there has literally been no communication from the SRU about his injury, which is strange because they do it for everyone else!

Literally have no clue when he’ll be back. There’s 2 weeks until the Ulster game so I’m hoping beyond hope that his name will be on the team sheet. He’ll then have 6 games to prove his fitness.

this could well be a concious decision that Rennie has made, when a team is commenting on a player's injuries and recovery thereof they are essentially releasing part of that players medical record. If the player in question does not want this to happen then the SRU or whoever it may be does not have a leg to stand on and cannot comment.

I think Rennie would be a great player to have on tour but rather than the versatile Sean O'Brien on the bench I'd like to see Rennie as the bench man.

As it stands I'd love to see a 35 man squad something along the lines of:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Dan Cole
04 Richie Gray
05 Donnacha Ryan
06 Tom Wood
07 Chris Robshaw (c)
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Greig Laidlaw
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 George North
12 Jonathan Davies
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Leigh Halfpenny
15 Rob Kearney

16 Richard Hibbard
17 Ryan Grant
18 Adam Jones
19 Alun Wyn Jones
20 Ross Rennie
21 Danny Care
22 Owen Farrell
23 Jamie Roberts

R Ross Ford
R Paul James
R Euan Murray
R Ian Evans
R Geoff Parling
R Kelly Brown
R Sean O'Brien
R Mike Phillips
R Toby Flood
R Brian O'Driscoll
R Tim Visser
R Mike Brown

Loosehead: Cian Healy, Ryan Grant, Paul James
Hooker: Rory Best, Richard Hibbard, Ross Ford
Tighthead: Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Euan Murray
Second Row: Ian Evans, Alun Wyn Jones, Donnacha Ryan, Richie Gray, Geoff Parling
Backrow: Chris Robshaw (c), Tom Wood, Kelly Brown, Ross Rennie, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien
Scrumhalf: Greig Laidlaw, Mike Phillips, Danny Care
Flyhalf: Owen Farrell, Jonny Sexton, Toby Flood
Centres: Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Jonathan Davies, Manu Tuilagi
Back Three: Rob Kearney, Mike Brown, Leigh Halfpenny, George North, Tim Visser

I think Hogg is in line to start for the Lions, he has been the standout fullback in the competition for me. I think 1/2p gets more credit as a kicker than as a fullback.

If I was Gatty I'd have Hogg in at 15 as the best all round player in that position and on form

I think my attempt at a 38 man squad had Scotland with one more than Ireland in it.

definites: for Ireland it's Healy, Best, Sexton. I'm not sure Scotland have any "definites" as such, but they do have some strong probables.

probables: for Ireland I'd go with SOB and Kearney. Scotland would be Gray, Brown, Laidlaw, Hogg.

strong possibles: I'd say Ryan for Ireland, Ford, Beattie and Visser for Scotland.

possibles: Ross, Heaslip, BOD for Ireland, Murray, Scott (shoot me on that one, but I like the guy and they aren't that many ICs putting their hand up at the moment), Maitland for Scotland.

I haven't gone with the real outside bets (someone like Harley? Marshall?) or the currently injured (Ferris, POC, Zebo), but I think that's a fair reflection...

I personally think Maitland is more likely than Visser. He's just a better allround player, and totally familiar with the Aussie players and conditions.

Odd comment above SirTidyChris about not wanting Maitland (presumably due to the grounds upon which he qualifies) but being ok with Visser! I'd say Maitland is far more entitled to play for Scotland given he has Scottish blood. Visser could have ended up playing for anyone!

I doubt we will see any uncapped players on this tour.

Its also hard to know what size tour the Lions will bring. They brought 37 on the last tour.

I picked a 35 man squad there but 38 seems a logical number. Thats two full teams and a backup bench.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I personally think Maitland is more likely than Visser. He's just a better allround player, and totally familiar with the Aussie players and conditions.

Odd comment above SirTidyChris about not wanting Maitland (presumably due to the grounds upon which he qualifies) but being ok with Visser! I'd say Maitland is far more entitled to play for Scotland given he has Scottish blood. Visser could have ended up playing for anyone!

Probably because Maitland is a FOTB Scott and Visser has been living in Scotland for a while.

It still irks me a little that Flutey was a Lion. Cest la vie.

red_stag wrote:I doubt we will see any uncapped players on this tour.

Its also hard to know what size tour the Lions will bring. They brought 37 on the last tour.

I picked a 35 man squad there but 38 seems a logical number. Thats two full teams and a backup bench.

That conclusion makes a lot of sense. It is a pretty manageable number as well.

Has Liam Williams been capped for Wales?

I know he played against the Barbarians - don't Wales give caps for them?

Still it matters not. Not a hope should Liam Williams be on tour.

Christian Wade is an outside bet for me but he is the only realistic uncapped player IMO.

sirtidychris wrote:Ireland will have more
Healy- starting lion
Best- starting lion
O'Brien- match day squad
Heaslip- mid week player
Sexton- starting lion
O'Driscoll-starting lion / match day squad
Kearney- Mid week player

Scotland
Grant- wont travel
Ford- wont travel
Gray-Starting lion
Brown-mid week player
Beattie- wont travel
Laidlaw- wont travel/mid week player
Hogg-mid week player
Visser-starting lion
Maitland- better not bloomin travel !

I know that he has Scottish relatives but I would rather Maitland didnt travel too to be honest. He has barely been involved in B&I rugby a few months and therefore think it cheapens the jersey a little.

Guns - no you didn't, girlfriend.

Are we really going to start this again? How long does one have to be here before it 'feels right' to cap them, exactly? We'll get to another 1000 post thread if we start to line up Rikki Flutey for another kicking.

GunsGerms wrote:I know that he has Scottish relatives but I would rather Maitland didnt travel too to be honest. He has barely been involved in B&I rugby a few months and therefore think it cheapens the jersey a little.

I know. I expect a pure Ayrian race to go on tour.

George Carlin wrote:Guns - no you didn't, girlfriend.

Are we really going to start this again? How long does one have to be here before it 'feels right' to cap them, exactly? We'll get to another 1000 post thread if we start to line up Rikki Flutey for another kicking.

Cool your jets Georgie. It you are happy with a squad of blow-ins thats your business. Likewise I reserve the right to favour players that have earned their stripes in B&I.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I know that he has Scottish relatives but I would rather Maitland didnt travel too to be honest. He has barely been involved in B&I rugby a few months and therefore think it cheapens the jersey a little.

I know. I expect a pure Ayrian race to go on tour.

Nothing to do with race Stag. I have no problem with Manu Tuilagi, Courtney Lawes, Simon Zebo, etc. etc. touring.

red_stag wrote:I know he played against the Barbarians - don't Wales give caps for them?

Still it matters not. Not a hope should Liam Williams be on tour.

Christian Wade is an outside bet for me but he is the only realistic uncapped player IMO.

Aye prob not.
I know he is capped but what are the chances of Luke Marshall? Ulster could go far in the HCup and he does have another 2 Irish games to impress after one very impressive debut????

Why are you so sure Grant won't travel? He's been consistently good in every match, our scrum has performed well and I'd wager he's probably near the top of the tackle count for props.

Beattie won't travel? He'll travel before Heaslip does, plus he's the only 8 still playing in the Heineken Cup.

Maitland won't travel? Probably the best right winger currently available, who cares how long he's been in the country.

GunsGerms wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Guns - no you didn't, girlfriend.

Are we really going to start this again? How long does one have to be here before it 'feels right' to cap them, exactly? We'll get to another 1000 post thread if we start to line up Rikki Flutey for another kicking.

Cool your jets Georgie. It you are happy with a squad of blow-ins thats your business. Likewise I reserve the right to favour players that have earned their stripes in B&I.

Seems our mongrels had quite enough to dispatch your thoroughbreds, Guns.

Still, I wish you luck in your bid to have everyone in Gryffindor with you.

[quote="reallybored"]Why are you so sure Grant won't travel? He's been consistently good in every match, our scrum has performed well and I'd wager he's probably near the top of the tackle count for props.

Beattie won't travel? He'll travel before Heaslip does, plus he's the only 8 still playing in the Heineken Cup.quote]

Despite the Scotland/Ireland result, would still say Ireland will get more on the plane, albeit a win for Scotland this weekend and a loss to the French, (if that's how it pans out) will go a long way towards evening up the numbers.

Agree re Grant - other than Gray I think he is the most likely Scot to travel. Not sure I see Beattie as on the plane yet, but one thing's for sure, Heaslip needs to have a couple of cracking matches, to get there. Faletau, Morgan and Beattie are all ahead of him on current form............unless of course Gatland picks on reputation - for sure a year ago he would have been the lions starter.

Kingshu wrote:Personally I don't think there's a great difference between the four nations, even though England are on a winning run at present I don't believe they a that far ahead of Wales and Ireland, and Scotland are not far of the pace either now.

I think England will provide the most but it will be closeish to a 1/4 comes from each nation, England slighlty more, Scotland slightly less.

So whereas you are worried we may have least represention, whoever it is will still be well represented, and won't be like last time when Scotland only had 4 players.

In the initial 2009 squad I recall the Scottish fans' indignation because Scotland only had two players. A couple were drafted in owing to injuries during the tour.

I expect Grant, Gray, Murray, Beattie, Laidlaw, Maitland and Hogg to be in the selectors' minds this time.

Healy, Best, Ryan, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Keearney, Bowe and Zebo for Ireland (the latter two if fit).

Plenty of others from both teams still have a chance.

Stag - looking at your squad, the Lions selectors have already had two preliminary selection meetings. Joe Launchbury made the cut both times. Source - The Rugby Paper.

However, I'm not sure that England will have as much representation as people think. How many non English posters would pick an England player above one of your own in any given position? England are currently a better 'collective' rather than being a team of outstanding individuals. Dan Cole being the obvious exception imo.

Why are people so against Sean Maitland?

I think he is the most complete winger in the Six Nations this year (only matched by the injured Tommy Bowe imo) and I would be more than delighted to see him tour. He certainly has a more valid claim to go with the Lions than Tuilagi or Riki Flutey etc. Nobody kicked up a fuss about Nathan Hines?!

I really, really hope he tours and makes the test side. On the hard ground with good players around him he could do some serious damage!

Maitland is definitely a 'test match animal' - and again he would thrive in that environment!

Fantastic allround skillset and pace to burn. It shows the ridiculous strength in depth in New Zealand that he never got capped.

Aye lads. If Maitland, or anyone else is eligible to play for the countries that make up The Lions, then they are eligible for The Lions.

Unless The Lions management decide they want to tighten the qualification criteria. But that's a different story.

red_stag wrote:I have a gnawing worry that Ireland may be the least represented nation on the Lions panel this year.

I have a growing hope that Ireland may be the least represented nation on the Lion's panel this year. Every four years the NH sides receive their affirmation that they aren't as good as their SH counterparts, so the fewer Irish players involved the less harm to the Test side.

BTW isn't it a tad condescending to compare Ireland to Scotland - why not Wales or England? The Scots could still win the championship after all!

I don't think stag is being condescending. More a reflection of perceived Irish lack of results in the 6N so far.

Results being the key word. Would've, Could've, Should've is the story of Ireland so far. You have some good players coming through. Testament to the Provinces' Academies.

Nils desperandum.

Notch

I'm a scot but maitland more validity to go to tour with the lions than tuilagi!!!!

I hope you mean playing form, if so then a little harsh on Tuilagi given he took Basteraud to school last week and prior to injury ran havoc through NZ.

Maitland has been good but he's hardly been a revelation, one who has taken the tour by storm. With the ball I would prefer Visser myself although Maitland is more polished overall.

If you mean qualification... Well he set foot in scotland for the first time last year and got capped pretty much straight away and plays due to a Scottish granny. Tuilagi went to school in England, like Faletau etc... What's wrong with that.

One has spent the last 10 years in the UK ... The other less then 1. One pledged his career to a home nations side from school, the other only when he realised he would never make it as a AB.

Flutey was a deserved pick,played well too set up a lovely try 3rd test

Everyones kicking up a fuss about where Maitland is from etc he plays for Scotland that's all that matters if he tours its because he deserves it just like any other player of he don't travel then he's one of many that could have but didn't. Manu, visser and Maitland if they travel im sure they wont be the only players that play for the lions who ain't 100% British as long as they play with heart and pride for they adopted nation who has the right to say they can't tour

Im sure what everyone wants is for the best players available to gatland, farrel and roundtree if Maitland is one then im happy and I'll be watching shouting for the players that are from Scotland Ireland England where normally id be against them being welsh

welshboii15 wrote:Im sure what everyone wants is for the best players available to gatland, farrel and roundtree if Maitland is one then im happy and I'll be watching shouting for the players that are from Scotland Ireland England where normally id be against them being welsh

Picking the best players - that's it.

fa0019 wrote:If you mean qualification... Well he set foot in scotland for the first time last year and got capped pretty much straight away and plays due to a Scottish granny. Tuilagi went to school in England, like Faletau etc... What's wrong with that.

One has spent the last 10 years in the UK ... The other less then 1. One pledged his career to a home nations side from school, the other only when he realised he would never make it as a AB.

I don't think anything is wrong with either of them. But as Maitland is 50% Scottish through his father then I'd say there is no rule change that would rule him out. For me, he is as Scottish as any of the other players- its his birthright. Tuilagi is residency qualified. I also son't have a problem with it at all but residency is more open to future change as a rule for qualification.

Faletau moved to Wales when he was 7, Manu to England when he was slightly older. They didn't show "interest" in the country. They had no say - they just came over with their parents. Now they regard it correctly as their home as they don't have a functional memory of anything else growing up.

I have never, ever heard of a credible explanation as to why players like this that found themselves in the country through no choice of their own are 'worthy' in a way that players like Maitland are not. It's not our business to question the mind of players and make a caricatured judgement about how worthy their claim is.

It's absolutley pathetic. Thank god the world isn't like the school playground.

lostinwales wrote:One silly moment sticks in my mind from Eng Fra. Big ruck - I think somewhere around the midway line. Ball comes out for Fra and they punt down the line. And there is Robshaw to catch the ball next to the touchline some 20m+ away from the ruck. I was thinking wtf is he doing there? He runs around carrying a ball magnet.

Dean Richards used to have one of those magnets. But he didn't run around with it so much. The ball just came to him.

George Carlin wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Guns - no you didn't, girlfriend.

Are we really going to start this again? How long does one have to be here before it 'feels right' to cap them, exactly? We'll get to another 1000 post thread if we start to line up Rikki Flutey for another kicking.

Cool your jets Georgie. It you are happy with a squad of blow-ins thats your business. Likewise I reserve the right to favour players that have earned their stripes in B&I.

Seems our mongrels had quite enough to dispatch your thoroughbreds, Guns.

Still, I wish you luck in your bid to have everyone in Gryffindor with you.

Open up to me George, why are you taking so much offense? Its not about mongrels or thoroughbreds, race or religion. Not sure what it has to do with anything either but yes Scotland beat Ireland. Congratulations.

Re Lions I would like players selected that have earned their stripes playing NH rugby. Not sure whats so outragous about that.

welshboii15 wrote:Everyones kicking up a fuss about where Maitland is from etc he plays for Scotland that's all that matters if he tours its because he deserves it just like any other player of he don't travel then he's one of many that could have but didn't. Manu, visser and Maitland if they travel im sure they wont be the only players that play for the lions who ain't 100% British as long as they play with heart and pride for they adopted nation who has the right to say they can't tour

You mean like the Irish guys? Most of them are 0% British but I know what you meant. Couldnt resist.

I can honestly say you have a solid point I didn't see that coming haha its bit like our beef not 100%

Alex_Germany wrote:

lostinwales wrote:One silly moment sticks in my mind from Eng Fra. Big ruck - I think somewhere around the midway line. Ball comes out for Fra and they punt down the line. And there is Robshaw to catch the ball next to the touchline some 20m+ away from the ruck. I was thinking wtf is he doing there? He runs around carrying a ball magnet.

Dean Richards used to have one of those magnets. But he didn't run around with it so much. The ball just came to him.

'Dean Richards' and 'run' hardly ever appear in a sentence together, and its what did for him in the end but that ability of his to be where the ball was, was truly remarkable.