England u20s vs Italy

First topic message reminder :

Finally, a balanced matchday squad!

England Under 20 side to play Italy
15 Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
14 Ben Howard (Worcester Warriors)
13 Mark Jennings (Sale Sharks)
12 Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
10 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
9 Callum Braley (Bristol Rugby)

1 Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (Northampton Saints)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
3 Scott Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
4 Elliott Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)
5 Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
6 Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers)
7 David Sisi (London Irish)
8 Jack Clifford (Harlequins) (c)

Replacements:

16 Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
17 Alex Lundberg (London Wasps)
18 Danny Herriott (Northampton Saints)
19 Tom Jubb (Saracens)
20 Gus Jones (London Wasps)
21 Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
22 Tom Stephenson (Northampton Saints)
23 Henry Purdy (Leicester Tigers)

Interesting to see Devoto and Nowell.

Cowan Dickie looks like an immense rugby talent who hasn't specialized yet!!

LCD looks like a redneck once his hair gets wet... Cracking player though so will forgive him most things!

The 9 from Bristol was bloody awful, Slade has looked ok nothing more.

Be a tight game Blueman, if we keep it in forwards should sneak it. Huge England pack

It'll probably be evens at the scrums next week. Wales will need to use that backline more. And of course improve their discipline and defence against driving lineouts.

LCD has played LH all the way up to this season.

SL wants him tried at hooker but its not working currently. Got to love his hair though, looks like a Cardiff special Blueman

I disagree morg, England are far bigger and more powerfull IMHO, if Wales revert to their strong set peice we will lose a tight battle like Pooly says.

If we open the game up however, IMHO we have little to fear from Englands backline, if they create like they did tonight they'll score nothing.

All damage done tonight is up front, everytime the backline get a sniff they make mistakes, and they clearly lack quality out wide (nole/noyle? aside)

If I was wilson I would be using the back row to support wider channels and move the English monsters around early on, once the tight 5 are blowing (- 1 or 2 phenoms) we can work the tighter chanells.

We've destroyed every other scrum in the 6 Nations. Why do you expect so little from there next week?

Looks more like a gypsy/valley commando than cardiff special mate Nowhere near close enough on the sides for a diff lad!!!

Because Ive seen the English scrum destroy everyone too (with small exceptions of the Irish lads being clever) and in every game the ball carrying from the English tight 5 has been men against boys!!!

I'm not saying we don't stand a chance, we may well give them a game, but why fight them at their strengths when their backline looks so toothless in attack (not just based on the Italy game) and easy ground can be made in the wider chanells?

Morgannwg wrote:We've destroyed every other scrum in the 6 Nations. Why do you expect so little from there next week?

Because this will be the first decent one you've played against?!?

England's scrum is very strong, our best TH isn't playing tonight

Nowell is a good player Blue, getting a lot of game time at Exeter I think.

Not clicked tonight but it will soon. Sam Hill is proven performer at 12 and plenty in back 3.

Oops, I was looking in the wrong column, we've already got a higher points difference! Any kind of win will be enough for England next week.

Last 20 has been better, nice work Nowell

thebluesmancometh wrote:Because Ive seen the English scrum destroy everyone too (with small exceptions of the Irish lads being clever) and in every game the ball carrying from the English tight 5 has been men against boys!!!

So like I said it could be evens up front next week then, but we'd definitely need Ieuan Jones to start. Interesting point about the Irish, they seem to do that most years in the U20 Six Nations. They've notched up a few wins over England when apprently being the weaker team on paper.

Cumbrian wrote:Oops, I was looking in the wrong column, we've already got a higher points difference! Any kind of win will be enough for England next week.

Just as I suspected. Which is why I wasn't pleased with Wales' style of play up until tonight. With that in mind, the English lads will go into the game full steam on the back of a good record against Wales. Not good news for us.

" They've notched up a few wins over England when apprently being the weaker team on paper."

We just lost that game despite playing most of the match with 14 men.

Yeah I know. Was your point meant to negate my statement?

Ye we'll need our big guns back, and now it's a case of winning outright, any loss will be enough for an England tournament win.

Pooly nowell looks good if not a little one dimensional, but there is just so little creativity anwhere behind the pack, some good strike runners/elusive runners but I can't see them finding space against a decent defence, and if Wales play their best possible backline they will be more than a match for the English attack out wide.

I am excited to see how a very strong Welsh pack fairs against a hugely dominant English pack.

Key phrase for me from comentator 'England havn't worked out what their strengths are' this has been true for every first half so far!!

We've def looked less oiled this season Blue, not as strong as previous years without doubt.

I can normally pick out a back who'll step up (Farrell, Ford, Robson etc) but have struggled this season.

Will be a good contest, I fancy us clicking with big guns back

I agree pooly, normally theres an English back who shines amongst the dross and with the armchair ride they get (sorry to stereotype about English forwards but lets be honest, theyre generally superior)

This year there is just nothing to right home about...

I fancy us clicking with big guns back

From an Irish point of view and someone who saw both Ireland games against Wales and England, I think England will win this. Their pack is made of players who look to be fully developed in bulking up and their conditioning so I expect them to have the edge there. It should be a close game all the same though.

Very poor handling, but I think the Jennings drop showed the ball must have been pretty greasy. Nonetheless England created loads, so I'm not sure the problem is lack of creativity. And when you play disappointingly and still score 50 points you must have something going for you. Interesting to see Stephenson debut - I think we'll be seeing a lot more of him. And LCD is very much in the Youngs mould of hooker, which is presumably why SL wants him playinh there.

It's a winner take all game next week. England have by far the better points difference at 83, Wales has 56.

I've watched both matches now and if England play like they did last night they will lose. Having said that I don't know for the life of me how Wales went behind 10-3 in the first quarter, they were all over Scotland - still they came good in the end.

I expect a tight match next week though.

I don't think it'll be that tight Rugger...

Englands defence in the wider chanells was non existent at times, but their pack was just totally dominant.

I think the game depends on how Wales choose to play, if they try to stay tight and work the set peice I think they are fighting a losing battle and then the game will be within a few points but England will win out.

If Wales play more expansive then they will have more luck points wise, but they leave themselves vulnerable to counter attacks, and for me England will just shade that too.

I think Wales best bet is to really mix the game up, go hell for leather from the off, look to get points on the board early, and then try to keep the lead and tighten up, if this England team go behind and get frustrated they will become very beatable very quickly IMHO, but if they get ahead I can't see how Wales will take it.

It's the hell for leather bit that gets me bluesman, that's what they did last night but as I said, with almost total dominance of possession and territory they found themselves behind after the first quarter.

It was when they stopped trying to run Scotland off their feet and started to use their heads instead of their fitness and speed that the points started to come - and come easily I felt.

It's as you say though, if England get ahead, as Scotland did, I can't see them giving up the lead so easily. I still feel it will be close because I don't think England have as much dominance up front as everyone is saying they have.

For England I thought the best players on the pitch were Luke Cowan- Dickie, David Sisi and Jack Nowell.

Thinking on to the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing them go to Argentina for the experience. Considering that we could lose our two first choice hookers to the lions a spot could open up in the wider squad for Cowan-Dickie.

Sisi has shown in the past that he has the physicality to mix it at senior level IMO. We could potentially lose Wood, Robshaw, Morgan, Haskell and/or Croft (some more likely than others obviously) to the Lions and Clarke injured, so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a bolter like Sisi could be included.

Nowell might find it more difficult because I doubt we are going to have too many back three players will be off with the Lions, but he is an exciting young talent nonetheless.

Rugger

There were mistakes though, and we couldve easily raced to a 10/14 point lead.

If England get an early try we will be chasing for a lot longer than we did at Scotland, but I think we have the pack and the dynamism to do the same thing V England, coax their forwards into drifting into the wider channells early on before punching up the gut.

I agree England won't dominate us anywhere nearly as much as they did v others, and England aside we have the strongest pack, but although we have some real beasts we don't have englands size man for man in the 8, they are simpler bigger and more agressive. Thats not to say we can't match them, if we do we win, simple as that, but thats not going to be simple at all.

Cumbrian wrote:For England I thought the best players on the pitch were Luke Cowan- Dickie, David Sisi and Jack Nowell.

Thinking on to the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing them go to Argentina for the experience. Considering that we could lose our two first choice hookers to the lions a spot could open up in the wider squad for Cowan-Dickie.

I think we should send the strongest side we can to the JWC - that will be good experience for them too.

England have enough players in their early 20s they can have a look at that they don't need to select u20s early. For instance, Buchanan, Haywood and Taylor at hooker, Kvesic, Wallace, Fearns, Nutley and Welch at 7, Wade and May in the back 3 (I could imagine May and Nowell being the wingers in 2015 though).

Argentina will see a good squad without the under 20s. How many will actually go with the Lions? 15 at most I'd have thought. We'd still have the other half the EPS plus the Saxons.

Cowan-Dickie played today as well, is this allowed

DaveM wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:For England I thought the best players on the pitch were Luke Cowan- Dickie, David Sisi and Jack Nowell.

Thinking on to the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing them go to Argentina for the experience. Considering that we could lose our two first choice hookers to the lions a spot could open up in the wider squad for Cowan-Dickie.

I think we should send the strongest side we can to the JWC - that will be good experience for them too.

England have enough players in their early 20s they can have a look at that they don't need to select u20s early. For instance, Buchanan, Haywood and Taylor at hooker, Kvesic, Wallace, Fearns, Nutley and Welch at 7, Wade and May in the back 3 (I could imagine May and Nowell being the wingers in 2015 though).

Fair point, it is very easy to get carried away with this sort of thing.

Morgannwg wrote:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/march/news-articles/070313_u18_wales

Can you keep us updated with that game? Thanks. I don't think Wales will put out that good a team, 18 year olds are getting promoted to the U20's these days. [/quote]

England won 44-7. Impressive, given the team was much changed from the one which beat Scotland. Good strength in depth at u18 level this year.

Yeah I seen the score on tonights Scrum V. Quite shocking to be honest. There was me thinking the U18's were starting to improve after being in tournaments like the FIRA(?) and going on tour to SA along with England and France. I guess those U18s have moved up to the U20s now, as the score back then was nowhere near that. Impressive by England though. Looks like the U20s are always good because of the levels beneath them.