Isreal Dagg best 15 in world rugby!

Tell that to Savea!!!

How many of you was I arguing with that Dagg was good, but wasn't all that great?

Dagg has had a poor start to super rugby and has been absolutlely humiliated this week. Don't get me wrong he wasn't the only player who missed tackles but he was one of the least effective tacklers on the park!

Dagg isn't superman, you mean?

I think he's allowed a bout of bad form, like most human players are allowed up here, bluesman? Even the best of players have their 'humiliation' moments...and down times in form. Maybe New Zealand stalewarts are cruising into a general dip in form. It'd be a neat time to have it! ...and then build again towards 2015.

To even contemplate calling someone the best in the world is brave, very brave indeed.

Dan Carter for me is the only player who you could call the best in his position for the past half dozen or so years.

No other player apart from McCaw can lay claim to that.

Well go and read the barage of abuse I got for claiming Dagg was good but not worlds best.

I personally put him into a category with Kearney, Beale and 1/2p and I got slated for it.

Granted this thread does look like I'm mocking him, I'm really not, he is a good player, but IMHO he's lucky to be scoring tries in that Kiwi backline, and players like Kirtchner, Foden and Hogg would look just as good.

Ps when will Mogg get an aussie call up, he's started in blistering form this year!!

Same as Andre Taylor for the Hurricanes last year, he was in scintillating form, not yet this year though.

This reads like a Morgannwg article, trying to say 'look, I was right, aren't I brilliant?'.

Like him, you weren't and aren't.

Sorry

Bluesman...Dagg is suffering from having to take on too much from a poorly firing Crusaders side. Hes one of the few in the side to get into the match and is getting frustrated. Last match he was left with a 5 man overlap on him on the line vs the Blues. screaming for support out wide and subsequently made to look stupid.

Still the best 15 in world rugby? You bet.

He's like Nonu amongst others in that he saves his best form for the black jersey. It's a common occurrence. I agree with TM in that the Saders are misfiring (not as bad as the Highlanders at the moment though) and he's been playing out of position. 13? No fecking way thank you. I like Halfpenny's form a lot and he's solid as well as having great goalkicking but in a World XV every player in the back three must have an X factor on attack. Dagg's got it, Halfpenny doesn't. Both are usually dependable and actually Dagg's a pretty damn good goalkicker too. So I'd take Dagg. Beale's had a crisis of confidence at international level and I'd put Kearney on a par with Halfpenny.

But Savea? Man does he look good. I can see him getting more and more confidence-as he knows he can now do well at a level above Super Rugby, and also at test level. He'll be playing havoc in the tests this year and I can see him having a bigger influence on the Twickenham test as the ABs try to put the last test of 2012 to bed.

Aside from being on the wind up a touch, Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit.

In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Savea I'm expecting to explode onto the scene this year, He seems to be realising his destructive capablilities of late, and his performance last night was Lomu esque!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Aside from being on the wind up a touch, Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit.

In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Savea I'm expecting to explode onto the scene this year, He seems to be realising his destructive capablilities of late, and his performance last night was Lomu esque!!!

Well from my point of view its hard to pick Kearney or Halfpenny because against us neither have ever done a thing, Kearney was poor in the Irish tour here and 1/2p has never worried the AB's. Its the same as the OGara/ Stephen Jones comparisons of a few years ago. Both played us something like 10 times each and generally had shockers. Obviously its difficult playing with lower ranked sides but to be considered the best I think you should at least be ruffling the feathers of the top sides as an individual. Oz might not beat us often but players like JOC, Beale, Cooper and SA are have Habana, Matfield who turn it up when they play the AB's and scare the living daylights out of us. Tuilagi and several others did it last year with England.

1/2p and Kearney just dont have that scare factor and they should, as they certainly have the goods against other sides. Being a sound defender, good kicker isnt enough in todays 15 role. You have to be an attacker extraordinaire and Dagg easily fits that bill. So did Beale. I dont believe either 1/2p or Kearney fit that description.

Foden and Hogg do though but I don't rate either that highly at present.

I disagree as Goode for England I rate highly, he is far more of a 1st receiver type, and is proving a very usefull tool to have.

For me Dagg seems to have more attcking threat because of his platform as much as anything, NZ serve him space on a plate and he takes it, IMHO replace him with Foden, Hogg, Kearney or 1/2p and they'll look far better than they do now!!

For me the kiwi back 3 attack owe a huge amount to Smith, who is the most underrated player around and is one of the best backs on the planet. I personally think he's more important to the AB's than Carter, in the sense that Carter can be replaced by a solid Cruden, but Smith is irreplacable!

By your criteria Andy Powell was one of the best players on the planet due to his scare factor when he first hit the scene, more rounded players last far longer, and prove far more usefull in other areas.

For me Kearney (and to a lesser extent Byrne) is the most rounded and classy fullbacks on the planet, Dagg is an elusive runner, and has a good boot but his performances outside of the NZ team and hugely dominant Crusaders team lack any sort of bite, it's like he thrives in very good teams who give him a huge platform, without that he flounders.

Agree with DC who although an exceptional player, think he's overrated (in that he gets escalated to the heavens whenever best 10's are discussed).

He looks to cruise a little too much sometimes and 'effortless' sometimes gets confused with lack of effort.

Its not often Dagg has a poor match and for me Blackadder is after 4 years of not winning with this side, is finally out of ideas and is desperate. Dagg on the wing was plain dumb.

Dagg is also in my opinion without equal under the high ball in that he not just catches it, he attacks it whether on attack or defence. Often he'll be scooting downfield after taking it amongst several players and its that positivity he brings to the process that stands him above others. Beale again, is most similar in that respect. Most other FB's take it in defensively, or take the mark and do what they can to negate the offense onslaught.

He may have the platform, but he still initiates from the back where it doesnt matter who is on your side in front. He creates a lot from nothing, but thats an AB trait anyway.

disneychilly wrote:He's like Nonu amongst others in that he saves his best form for the black jersey. It's a common occurrence. I agree with TM in that the Saders are misfiring (not as bad as the Highlanders at the moment though) and he's been playing out of position. 13? No fecking way thank you. I like Halfpenny's form a lot and he's solid as well as having great goalkicking but in a World XV every player in the back three must have an X factor on attack. Dagg's got it, Halfpenny doesn't. Both are usually dependable and actually Dagg's a pretty damn good goalkicker too. So I'd take Dagg. Beale's had a crisis of confidence at international level and I'd put Kearney on a par with Halfpenny.

But Savea? Man does he look good. I can see him getting more and more confidence-as he knows he can now do well at a level above Super Rugby, and also at test level. He'll be playing havoc in the tests this year and I can see him having a bigger influence on the Twickenham test as the ABs try to put the last test of 2012 to bed.

Have to agree with you there. Halfpenny did have the attacking prowess, sadly he hasn't used it for a while in a red jersey while we have seen glimpses of it in a Blue jersey. I'm sure he can get it back. Right now he must think he's one of the big lumps the way he keeps looking for contact. He is certainly our best player by a mile and I think he's pushing his way into this 'world class' category.

I haven't watched Dagg thus far. Although when he first burst onto the scene I felt he was a little overhyped. He had one decent half against Ireland in the summer and that was it. I always knew that him, Guildford and Maitland had great potential and it was Dagg who was given the most opportunity. He came into his own in the follow tri-nations and became worthy of the hype. RWC I thought he was still 2nd choice, until Mils retired out of the blue.

Mils was definitely the no.2 FB by the time the World cup rolled around. Dagg was the standout player in a very strong semi final against Oz:

"Like Cullen, the lad formerly known to New Zealand as the Paekakariki Express, Dagg has the sort of blinding pace that scares defences to death. He had already made one dart when he made the move that broke open the match.
Rocky Elsom tried to get to Dagg but was left fumbling for air. Quade Cooper couldn't get there in time to nudge Dagg over the sideline before he got the scoring pass away. It is hard to defend that sort of speed without leaving gaps for others."

good try Bulls. Wide out Blues never covered off. Steyn converts. 10-6.

Whew..Bulls again in...again out wide. Blues suddenly looking like the team of last year. Mistakes..charge down started that one. Bulls playing fantastic. Impressed with Spies first couple of hit ups. Rangers injured it seems.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Tell that to Savea!!!

How many of you was I arguing with that Dagg was good, but wasn't all that great?

Dagg has had a poor start to super rugby and has been absolutlely humiliated this week. Don't get me wrong he wasn't the only player who missed tackles but he was one of the least effective tacklers on the park!

Gee Bluesman, Dagg has only played one game in the number 15 jersey and you get stuck into him, me thinks your a little to quick to criticise. Or do you think the Crusaders would be better of with a Welsh fullback, Shane Howarth perhaps.

He's played poorly by his own standards but I think its more a sign of him getting frustrated, refusing to be part of easy losses. Didnt stop him getting stuck in though.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Tell that to Savea!!!

How many of you was I arguing with that Dagg was good, but wasn't all that great?

Dagg has had a poor start to super rugby and has been absolutlely humiliated this week. Don't get me wrong he wasn't the only player who missed tackles but he was one of the least effective tacklers on the park!

Gee Bluesman, Dagg has only played one game in the number 15 jersey and you get stuck into him, me thinks your a little to quick to criticise. Or do you think the Crusaders would be better of with a Welsh fullback, Shane Howarth perhaps.

Oh come on read the thread mate, it is a little tongue in cheek, but I just don't put Dagg as a best in the world type player, up there with some of the best of course, but like I said previously if I had to put a world XV together Kearney would be my choice over a group consisting of Dagg/Beale/1/2p and Foden who IMHO all have slight flaws.

But as good as Savea is, it's not often you see an int fullback near humiliated like that...

I like Kearney too-he's very much a Chris Latham type player. Almost a clone. Very complete but Dagg I feel is complete too. His punting is downright huge and he's excellent in the air. NZ has been lucky in that after 09 when we had all sorts of problems dealing with the high ball that Jane and Dagg developed to the extent they did. If you want a masterclass in defusing bombs take another look at the 2011 semi. You can see the intent Dagg has when he catches-he goes forward and looks for space.

Catt was a solid defender too but the biggest memory people are going to have of him will be as a speed bump.

Agree with you Bluesman about Smith-the first World Cup we have since 95 with a fit specialist centre playing in position and look what happens. He'll be a big loss-especially as SBW and Kahui are away. Check out the 2011 3N game in PE for Dagg to ignite a NZ side whose pack were getting bested. He can do it under pressure too. But you're right in that the form is average at present. Long way to go before France visit.

Blackadder seems to be running out of ideas and on thin ice at the moment. Carter is the best 10 I've ever seen but his dropkicks are pretty average. He's only hit one with the game on the line and that was from almost point blank range. Just wish he'd run more at the line because NZ are almost unstoppable when he does.

Odds on France getting the 6N wooden spoon then winning the NZ series?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Aside from being on the wind up a touch, Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit.

In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Savea I'm expecting to explode onto the scene this year, He seems to be realising his destructive capablilities of late, and his performance last night was Lomu esque!!!

Kearney who's been average to poor this 6N's or Halfpenny who can kick well but only runs sideways?

Dagg is the best international 15 easily, but has looked a bit off the pace this season, but then that's only what three games?! Hardly fair to judge him on those is it now? Unless you're just looking to score some points...

yappysnap wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Aside from being on the wind up a touch, Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit.

In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Savea I'm expecting to explode onto the scene this year, He seems to be realising his destructive capablilities of late, and his performance last night was Lomu esque!!!

Kearney who's been average to poor this 6N's or Halfpenny who can kick well but only runs sideways?

Dagg is the best international 15 easily, but has looked a bit off the pace this season, but then that's only what three games?! Hardly fair to judge him on those is it now? Unless you're just looking to score some points...

Yeah Kearney has been very poor this 6N's, even though he is still pretty accurate under high balls his missed kick later on ultimately cost Ireland the win.

Just out of interest though 1/2p and Kearney are looking decent in absolutely torrid weather, for me watching 1/2p taking high balls/landing on his neck in the wind and rain is just top class! Kearney and Hogg have done well too!!

Dagg is having a miserable time on lovely dry days, hard grounds, and at club level etc, lets not compare apples and oranges at present.

Right now NH and SH backs are playing a totally different style of game.

To be fair to him isn't he just coming back from injury?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just out of interest though 1/2p and Kearney are looking decent in absolutely torrid weather, for me watching 1/2p taking high balls/landing on his neck in the wind and rain is just top class! Kearney and Hogg have done well too!!

Dagg is having a miserable time on lovely dry days, hard grounds, and at club level etc, lets not compare apples and oranges at present.
Right now NH and SH backs are playing a totally different style of game.

You were comparing them!!

yappysnap wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Aside from being on the wind up a touch, Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit.

In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Savea I'm expecting to explode onto the scene this year, He seems to be realising his destructive capablilities of late, and his performance last night was Lomu esque!!!

... Halfpenny who can kick well but only runs sideways?

You couldn't possibly be talking about the best full back in the NH there could you. A bit of bitterness me thinks.

I didn't compare them outright, and with the harder ground, nicer weather and lesser opposition I think it's unfair to compare SH FB's with NH ones at present.

Don't you agree?

Dagg really isn't looking particularly good. I understand the Saders are looking disjointed, and Daggs been shuffled around a bit... In a world 15 I'd go with Kearney every time, for me just more rounded, if not a touch less explosive going forward.

Comparing Kearney to Dagg directly

disneychilly wrote:
Odds on France getting the 6N wooden spoon then winning the NZ series?

Ummm...pretty good I'd say...how does it go...hot (WC2011) , cold (2012 6N), hot (AI's)...cold (wooden spoon)...hot ( )...

Not sure how Kearney or 1/2p would have done with Savea in that tackle either. One thing Dagg will never do is not have a go. With his try he showed some real gas to outsprint 4 players in front of him 60 yards out after the kick to then control it to the line. If thats Dagg playing bad then so be it.

Israel Dagg is much more of a match winning fullback than Leigh Halfpenny.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Israel Dagg is much more of a match winning fullback than Leigh Halfpenny.

????. No, Israel Dagg is at a very good party at a house called The All Blacks. He's slick and he's surrounded by slickness.

I don't know what anyone here knows about percentages and physics. But one person working hard does so much shovelling. Two people working hard together do not do twice the amount of work. They do over that amount. So two people working hard together do more than two people working alone.

Dagg helps the All Blacks be the All Blacks. And in turn, the All Blacks help Israel be Dagg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrcE46eMK0g

Can Dagg do that

A couple of poor tackles doesn't make him a bad player.

Dagg is the best 15 in world for me, Halfpenny & Kearney are top players but they're not in the same league.

Halfpenny does what he's asked to do..and is faultless at it. Playing in an AB side where his role might be expanded and allowed more room to be creative? I think he'd fit in comfortably.

Kearney has a few tricks..and perhaps if Ireland had been a better side he might be proving a better 15 than he does in his on/off form. He has his game but it would need a few extras to bring his worth up.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Israel Dagg is much more of a match winning fullback than Leigh Halfpenny.

Agreed and on form i'd rather have Dagg that any other full back on form I think.

Halfpenny does have the goal kicking though, which is very good at (missed kicks at the weekend aside). I really rated Halfpenny but I do wonder if he would be getting as much praise as he has done recently if he wasn't Wales' goal kicker? In terms of actual full back play he has been solid rather than brilliant.

I think people tend to see the AB's as getting an easy ride sometimes and assume a good non-AB player would slip into their side and suddenly become great.

I don't see it tbh, Dagg is the worlds best 15 on merit, not just because he's an AB.

Bathman, best in 6N for me. That might not be brilliant... but it's all he's had to be, facing the competition he's faced in it....so far. He's a tackling, kicking, catching 15...and perhaps moreso in other years he's shown he is also a creative elusive attacker.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think people tend to see the AB's as getting an easy ride sometimes and assume a good non-AB player would slip into their side and suddenly become great.

I don't see it tbh, Dagg is the worlds best 15 on merit, not just because he's an AB.

Hard to prove as the alternatives would need stints with the ABs and Dagg would need stints with their sides. Being an AB is a good percentage of reputation already given for most of them.... But really, it seems saying other players might be as good as Dagg is almost seen as a slur - even to suggest it. That assumption that an AB couldn't have an equal is as much a non-starter as saying there are better 15s than Dagg. Dagg gets to prove he's the best with the very best...others don't have the luxury.

See your point Fly but some people just go the opposite way and chin off how good a player is "because he plays for the AB's"

The way some post you'd think the AB's were a team of average Joes with Carter & McCaw dragging them through each game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:See your point Fly but some people just go the opposite way and chin off how good a player is "because he plays for the AB's"

The way some post you'd think the AB's were a team of average Joes with Carter & McCaw dragging them through each game.

Ah no, I know what you mean. For me, they've always been my second team of choice...I'm just a big fan of how they choose to play the game and the talent they have available to constantly play it. But it's just that one great player in a great team does enhance the efforts of another great player. They help each other be great...it's symbiotic.

Yes its a good point and heres one where the commentators make specific mention of his having the platform to 'do what he does' which is true but given he ball from 30 meters out the SA defence is still very intact. From not a lot on he single handedly ghosts past Schaulk Burger, Spies, a couple of others and Kirchner to score.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeHBcQEv5vg

Its this blinding change of pace and balance that allows Dagg to confuse and bewilder the opposition that makes him a great player. Often in the same position hes stretched the opposition so wide that he often finds others to pass to in space.

1/2p and Kearney are just not in this league as attacking fullbacks and I doubt very much either would have done anything like that in that situation, let alone anyone else.

It seems to me that a lot of people round here think that Israel Dagg is the only fullback playing rugby in New Zealand, reality is that we have a number of current fullbacks going around down here, who if given the opportunity on the International stage would also show they are far superior to Leigh Halfpenny.

Yes thats a good point. Given the level the ABs usually play at theres likely at least one in each pos that would rival other anyone outside the AB's. Cruden would rate second to Carter in my opinion, based on last year and particularly the start of this, easily the best 10 in the comp so far.

Can you see Ranger getting in this year Laurie? Centre, 12 or back to wing for Jane perhaps? So far he's thrived under JKs side and has really stepped up as a leader. That try down the right was just huge and his pilfering reminds of Pocock of all people! And he owned Dagg last week as well.

He's one tough m(&^ther.

I was discusssing Ranger with Biltong last week, For mine he is not a centre, yes hes fast,strong,dominates the tackle/ball well, but he just doesnt have the distribution skills especially on the inside to play centre at International level.

I would like to see JK try him at 2nd 5 just for a look, but to me he plays at a higher level on the wing.

I think his distribution skills are improving on a couple of years ago in that hes often frantically looking around to offload, so he has a greater awareness of where he is in position to others, but I agree second could be good for him and I'd have him there rather than wing now purely for his tackle ball/ physical stuff and he'll be one to keep Nonu honest. But geez he's got some pace and uses it well.

I can't see Hansen ignoring him if he carries on like this and JK and GH are likely to push him to the limit- they love that sort of free spirit and aggression- similar to JK himself.

Blues look great this season, Saili & Piutau could be real stars.

I've always really rated Ben Smith, he'd be a shoe in for most NH teams

Ben Smith's shown to be very reliable of late and makes breaks effortlessly. For me he reminds of Conrad Smith the way he runs. He just lacks something for me- the aggression factor perhaps, presence on the field? Super reliable and makes an excellent sub but just can't pinpoint whats missing.

He kinda looks like Smith's skinnier brother too.

I don't think he's ever been given a shot Taylor, he's a bit like Brown for us. Gets a lot of sub time but its generally in the wing where he's not as effective.

I think he's an outstanding FB, that little move on the touch line where he took out two players at the weekend oozed class.