Isreal Dagg best 15 in world rugby!

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Tell that to Savea!!!

How many of you was I arguing with that Dagg was good, but wasn't all that great?

Dagg has had a poor start to super rugby and has been absolutlely humiliated this week. Don't get me wrong he wasn't the only player who missed tackles but he was one of the least effective tacklers on the park!

As an NH fan I have to say I find Ben Smith immensely impressive - he's not just consistent in a humdrum, defensive, good technique sort of way (read: Halfpenny, who I take to be a solid player who honestly lacks a good attacking game at present) but consistent in his attacking skills and break-making too.

Yes I know what you mean captain...

Perhaps my fellow kiwis can help with this one. My opinion on Smith is that he's in the squad primarily as back up to Dagg but can double as a 3/4 if required. He ticks a lot of the boxes. However, if Dagg were ruled out I believe the selectors wouldnt be 100% content with Smith as the no. 1 Fullback and would look at others first with Smith remaining as the primary backup outside back. Someone with more impact perhaps.

In thinking about it more I'd probably pick Savea, Dagg and Ranger as the back 3 if picked to play tomorrow. Ranger instead of Gear as he's offered more so far. I'd be happy if Ben Smith were at the back with those two however, as they offer the physicality and he might have to cover some of the kicks normally fielded by Jane.

Right now with Jane injured I reckon B Smith is the 15 in waiting. He's a fine player and would do okay for the ABs but he's not going to ever make that shirt his. He doesn't have enough X factor to go with all his very goodness to cement himself into that position long term. Even if he got a year under his belt I think someone like Taylor, Piutau, Nani Williams (not necessarily them) would eventually overtake him. I reckon B Smith has more chance of taking over from C Smith for the end of season tour than taking over from Dagg.

As to the general discussion of the quality of ABs: there have been many NZ players who have been near or not so near the ABs to go off and do a good job overseas - eg Flutey, Waldrom, Payne, Howarth, Leslie brothers, Tito, Maitland, Marsh brothers, Paterson, Bent. So if these guys can do alright in overseas then you can expect someone like Dagg to be 2 levels above them.

Dagg doesn't look good because he is playing with the ABs, he is playing with the ABs because he is good. That's not to say he is necessarily the best in the world however.

Agree, it is easier to look good when playing for the all Blacks as their support running lines, angled running etc makes it easier than let's say the sprinboks who don't play that style.

Yeah, I think what some people might be forgetting in emphasis is that to be an AB in the first place you've obviously come a long way and demonstrated a significant level of commitment. This obviously applies to all internationals, but especially with the ABs I think NH fans have, over the years, become used to seeing another bloke come through who they're not too familiar with and tear it up, and assume they can do it because they're playing for the ABs. It's more subtle than that, which means someone like Dagg really has demonstrated enough on the field to stake a claim as the best 15 in the world, despite getting bumped by Savea.

Yeah England didn't drop Vickery and Catt just because Lomu sent them into next week.

Ben Smith is solid and you get the sense he is dependable and smart like Conrad but I don't think he has that X factor needed to be an AB outside back. I like him as a backup though and depending on the opposition wouldn't mind seeing Andre Taylor have a crack if Dagg got hurt. Would like to see Ranger given licence to roam from a wing if Jane is still out but would understand the need for experience and dependability hence talk of Ben Smith.

In retort to the post with Kearney's dropkick on it, uh yeah I'd say Dagg can do that. He's a great goalkicker with a prodigious boot and every bit Kearney's equal in the air.

I agree with Biltong in that the ABs play an expansive game with a solid pack-that gives the opportunity to showcase skills that other players wish they had. But again the NZ gameplan is built to showcase the basic skills of the ABs as they are the most skilled team in world rugby-the Super Rugby teams do this too as they all have a common sub goal of making the ABs stronger. Look at SA's style and that of the Cheetahs for the opposite. Man those guys look great on the counterattack. The Boks aren't as willing to lose their rigidity. If they do though, we'd all better look out.

OK enough of the NZ love in time for some contraversy...

Catt and Vickery were limited players, in an amateur era, against a man largely regarded as the most effective player ever to have played the game... Savea is no Lomu, he's a quality winger who looks far better at club level than int level (although I still rate him up there with the best).

THE best FB in the world doesn't get a tonking like that (he wasn't just boshed off the once either) without a serious dip in form / injury to use as an excuse, infact far inferior players than Dagg have dealt with far superior players than Savea (physicality wise)

Dagg had a great Super season then made some very good outings for NZ, he hasn't really kicked on from the season after, and has been solid since, this season he's started half asleep, and there are 2/3 better fullback options if NZ were playing tomorrow IMHO!

As I said before Dagg is a quality player, but based on his previous performances he is not just not head and shoulders clear as best FB in the world, he's struggling to hold onto a group of players.

yeah in NZ its a case of all sxv roads lead to Rome. We essentially have 5 mini AB sides largely doing the same thing. In SA half the sxv roads end up in Greece in that the top side is rarely a culmination of the sxv sides.

So the Bok side is a watered down version of the real potential, simply because they want to play a certain way regardless of the trends. Winning is about evolving. 2009 we adapted to the Bok kicking game and now have the best bomb disposal unit in the business, Why? Because we wanted to stay on top. To do that, we had to change. Simple. Although it helps being able to do what we love to do best...attack and score tries. We just evolved a way of being able to do both and our grass roots system supports being innovative, open to new ideas, experimenting.

Just reiterating Disneys point really...

Taylorman wrote:yeah in NZ its a case of all sxv roads lead to Rome. We essentially have 5 mini AB sides largely doing the same thing. In SA half the sxv roads end up in Greece in that the top side is rarely a culmination of the sxv sides.

So the Bok side is a watered down version of the real potential, simply because they want to play a certain way regardless of the trends. Winning is about evolving. 2009 we adapted to the Bok kicking game and now have the best bomb disposal unit in the business, Why? Because we wanted to stay on top. To do that, we had to change. Simple. Although it helps being able to do what we love to do best...attack and score tries. We just evolved a way of being able to do both and our grass roots system supports being innovative, open to new ideas, experimenting.

Just reiterating Disneys point really...

And boom goes the dynamite!! It really gets to me that the junior system in the UK is so soooooo bad!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:OK enough of the NZ love in time for some contraversy...

Catt and Vickery were limited players, in an amateur era, against a man largely regarded as the most effective player ever to have played the game... Savea is no Lomu, he's a quality winger who looks far better at club level than int level (although I still rate him up there with the best).

THE best FB in the world doesn't get a tonking like that (he wasn't just boshed off the once either) without a serious dip in form / injury to use as an excuse, infact far inferior players than Dagg have dealt with far superior players than Savea (physicality wise)

Dagg had a great Super season then made some very good outings for NZ, he hasn't really kicked on from the season after, and has been solid since, this season he's started half asleep, and there are 2/3 better fullback options if NZ were playing tomorrow IMHO!

As I said before Dagg is a quality player, but based on his previous performances he is not just not head and shoulders clear as best FB in the world, he's struggling to hold onto a group of players.

Agree Savea has far more potential than Lomu ever had.

nganboy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:OK enough of the NZ love in time for some contraversy...

Catt and Vickery were limited players, in an amateur era, against a man largely regarded as the most effective player ever to have played the game... Savea is no Lomu, he's a quality winger who looks far better at club level than int level (although I still rate him up there with the best).

THE best FB in the world doesn't get a tonking like that (he wasn't just boshed off the once either) without a serious dip in form / injury to use as an excuse, infact far inferior players than Dagg have dealt with far superior players than Savea (physicality wise)

Dagg had a great Super season then made some very good outings for NZ, he hasn't really kicked on from the season after, and has been solid since, this season he's started half asleep, and there are 2/3 better fullback options if NZ were playing tomorrow IMHO!

As I said before Dagg is a quality player, but based on his previous performances he is not just not head and shoulders clear as best FB in the world, he's struggling to hold onto a group of players.

Agree Savea has far more potential than Lomu ever had.

Oh I agree, it's a shame he has to play against professional players these days, who generally find a way of knocking down the biggest and most powerfull on the planet. Lomu had the luxury of facing far smaller, less conditioned, less abled players. Which means Lomu will always be the most effective and destructive player ever to play the game, talent he had little, but effect he had far more than Savea will ever have.

You're a little harsh on Jonah there Bluesman. He couldn't turn very well and scragged people rather than tackled them, but he was much more than just a big bloke who ran fast. Aside from being the quickest over 10m in the All Blacks, and having said speed, his sidestep was phenomenal and his in and away was, to use a cricket term, unplayable. I'd say even if he wasn't built like a Mack truck he'd be fast and elusive enough to challenge for an AB jersey if not do bloody well in it.

Now there are an abundance of big fast guys but I reckon a 20 year old fit Lomu would still have a massive impact on today's game. But the big quys are a lot more skilful than he was, Savea in particular. He has a great tackling technique, has more game awareness already and is excelling in a team that's not always on the front foot (the Canes). I'm expecting big things from him this year, was pleasantly surprised by how well he coped in 2012. A back three of Dagg, Savea and Jane has the perfect combination of balance and brilliance for me. But with Ranger in for Jane in June, some havoc will still be wrought!

I did say he was the most effective player to have ever played the game, I don't think theres any way I could top that TBH!!

He certainly wouldn't be as effective today, although the thought of an 18 yr old Lomu conditioned to todays standards does give me a chill!!!

No. I think Fake Dagg is.

Was just watching Re Union

They showed Savea putting Dagg on his backside.


Classic

Biltong wrote:Was just watching Re Union

They showed Savea putting Dagg on his backside.


Classic

Wasn't it more of a crippling sideways down motion?

Looking forward to seeing Ranger grace these shores in the AI's. Do people think he'll play in the Championship as well? He should def start in the centre's, a guy with his much talent just needs to get his hands on the pill as often as possible, on the wing he'll be wasted until a turn over comes along.

Biltong wrote:Was just watching Re Union

They showed Savea putting Dagg on his backside.


Classic

Thing is Biltong, he would have done the same to you, me and everyone else in world rugby with that hit. Dagg did everything right. Went low went in hard. But the size and speed and particularly the momentum would have been too much for anyone. Who would have done better than that I wonder?

Whats with this Lomu not meeting the size of players today? The game is full of small and very successful wings and fullbacks. Only Savea, North and Cuthbert and maybe a couple of others would be classed as big. Look at jane, 1/2p, Kearney, Dagg, Ioane, JOC, C Smith, Beale. Were they all smaller than that in Lomu's day? Groundless comment.

Halfpenny...

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:Was just watching Re Union

They showed Savea putting Dagg on his backside.


Classic

Thing is Biltong, he would have done the same to you, me and averyone else in world rugby with that hit. Dagg did everything right. Went low went in hard. But the size and speed and particularly the momentum would have been too much for anyone. Who would have done better that that I wonder?

Disagree mate, he gave Savea the inside as Savea straightened.

Fundamental mistake.

He also had momentum. To expect Dagg to stop Savea in that instance is ridiculous.

Morgannwg wrote:Halfpenny...

Would have stopped Savea?...in....your....dreams. Good one though...worth a laugh.

Taylorman wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Halfpenny...

Would have stopped Savea?...in....your....dreams. Good one though...worth a laugh.

Having just watched the video I think he could.....because of the way Edwards has taught our players to 'chop.' Savea is a big guy but that was horrific technique from Dagg. From an All Black, a class one at that, I would expect a lot better.

Savea still looked raw when we last played NZ. Do you think he is a more complete player now?

Savea was raw in the 4N with a lot to learn. He made big moves towards a more complete game in the AI's and is continuing to gain confidence in the sxv.

It wont be until the 4N again where we will really get an idea where he's at, Oz and certainly the Boks putting him under pressure on defence. No doubting his attacking abilities and my hope is that Dagg, Savea and Ranger are our back three this year, Ranger also thriving under JK at the Blues and he brings a fresh and new skillset to the game, and has devastating off the mark speed. If you saw the Blues Saders game (whgere he also owned Dagg) or his try vs the Bulls you'd see why.

I have been very impressed by Ranger.

Look we are only talking about Ranger because of Smiths impending holiday. Otherwise he might as well go eat sushi.

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:Was just watching Re Union

They showed Savea putting Dagg on his backside.


Classic

Thing is Biltong, he would have done the same to you, me and everyone else in world rugby with that hit. Dagg did everything right. Went low went in hard. But the size and speed and particularly the momentum would have been too much for anyone. Who would have done better than that I wonder?

Whats with this Lomu not meeting the size of players today? The game is full of small and very successful wings and fullbacks. Only Savea, North and Cuthbert and maybe a couple of others would be classed as big. Look at jane, 1/2p, Kearney, Dagg, Ioane, JOC, C Smith, Beale. Were they all smaller than that in Lomu's day? Groundless comment.

Taylorman

Open that second eye mate, Dagg was in an awfull position, went down way too early and lost sight of Savea, lets not pretend Savea is superman, he doesn't wreck back 3 players for fun, and I'd bet a very high percentage wouldve brought Savea to ground before the tryline!!!

Regarding Lomu, it's not about size, Ive seen Lomu training in the gym as he got to the Blues, he claimed he was lifting and was stronger than ever before despite being unimpressive in the gym. It's about level of conditioning, players today hit pound for pound harder than Lomu did himself back then, even small players, so Lomu, in the condition he was back then wouldve been nowhere nearly effective today, players are better conditioned, better prepared and use better techniques than ever before, the game has moved on from the 90's.

nganboy wrote:Look we are only talking about Ranger because of Smiths impending holiday. Otherwise he might as well go eat sushi.

So who's Jane's replacement Ngan?

thebluesmancometh wrote: It's about level of conditioning, players today hit pound for pound harder than Lomu did himself back then, even small players, so Lomu, in the condition he was back then wouldve been nowhere nearly effective today, players are better conditioned, better prepared and use better techniques than ever before, the game has moved on from the 90's.

The margins are not too dissimilar to negate Lomu's impact to that extent. With the same line speed, weight and balance, combined with todays training techniques, what youre actually saying is that he'd be a better player today, so theres no evidence to suggest he'd be less effective.

And Dagg isnt up there with the best because of his tackling, and if I were to scrawl through video I'd no doubt find just as ineffectual tackles from any fullback. Thing is Dagg and Savea are both first selection AB's so can't complain about that.

Carter is average often in a Crusaders shirt. Don't see tongue and cheek posts about him. Hardly think getting run over by the Big Bus is a sign you're a bad player. Dagg was on the wing in his first game and didn't have the platform in the second game. Mike Catt was hardly a mug on defence but Lomu steamriolled him.

In a black shirt he has been NZ's most consistent attacker. I don't care who is the world's best but I wouldn't swap Dagg for any other fullback in world rugby. In the 4N when our attack wasn't clicking in the first rounds, Dagg was the constant threat on attack for us.

I think the pleasing thing about that confrontation from the OP is that Julian Savea hasn't rested on his laurels after his season last year. He has worked harder in the off-season and is reaping the rewards now. That's great to see from such a young man. Looking forward to seeing him in a black shirt.

Wouldn't be surprised if Crusaders get the wooden spoon this year. Like Nonu though who often is in the worst performing NZ franchise, Dagg is consistent in a black shirt. Not worried in the least about his position for the ABs. More worried about how woeful the Crusaders have been and the loss of their Super mojo.

wooden spoon? not quite...
Highlanders and the tahs look more likely for that. I think Blackadders the problem. Too laid back...too little new ideas. Relying on same ol' same ol'.

Agree with Savea... C Smith said as much. Savea has been putting a ton of work in off season and its showing. 2nd year blues and probably the incoming of brother Ardie has sparked some competitive spirit in him, Ardie getting some of the limelight last year.

Wooden spoon out of the NZ franchises i meant. We're only ahead of the Highlanders because of the bye!

Blackadder has been poor with selections. He knew about players leaving and hasn't brought in any new talent.

I think the Highlanders will be clear wooden spooners kia. Besides having mainly aged stars, theyre getting injured as well, and the older boys might struggle away more. Nonus carrying the brick around with him I agree. As soon as he leaves ( canes and blues) they both take off. Saders have a side to regroup and reprioritise by the time the money games roll around. A bit weak in the midfield and at FB if Dagg gets moved around. Newer Guys like Mckillop and Tyler B need to kick on more but I think theyll be ok. 2-4 with a ate rush Id say.

You're right Taylorman, we're going to win!

The Crusaders have been hurt by dropping games against the cellar dwellers. I think the senior players stood up today and set an example for the younger players. You could see how their confidence grew with players performing around them. Another player bluesman is not so fond of, Kieran Read, led from the front tonight.

By the way, Dagg's offload for the first or second try was something special. He's not a big guy but he's good at wriggling out of tackles and creating space for others.

It was the return to the Saders at their best Kia. Didnt expect it and the Highlanders are now our only concern, provided the Blues can regroup. Happy with the rest.

Guilford for the right wing covering Jane - what do ya reckon Taylorman?

I'd have Ranger in there at the moment. Guiford has to get back into the Saders first- Marshall and McKillop were impressive.

Guilford does play the inject into the backline role better than most and he Dagg and DC combine well, so has value there.

Provided he keeps his 12 steps intact we could see him in 12 weeks but I think there are better players- Gear and Ranger and even B Smith if they have to have him somewhere I'd say are first picks for Janes pos. at the moment. Savea if injury free is a dead cert with the all round the improvement and confidence he's made snce last year.