v2 G.O.A.T The Semi Finals Match 2

First topic message reminder :

The second of todays semi finals pits Roger Federer vs Pele

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

The Federer "bad match up" thing is the biggest load of ballcocks I've ever heard, believed by those who are blinded by their love for Roger and can't accept he may sometimes lose to a better player.

Its disrespectful to both players in my view.

Also one thing that is never mentioned in the match up is the fact courts are much slower these days and play into Nadal's favour. Take for example Indian Wells this week it is painfully slow and it is a hardcourt which should favour Fed but it certainly doesn't.

VTR wrote:The Federer "bad match up" thing is the biggest load of ballcocks I've ever heard, believed by those who are blinded by their love for Roger and can't accept he may sometimes lose to a better player.

Its disrespectful to both players in my view.

I disagree with you there - I think there are very good technical reasons why Nadal has been a tougher opponent for Federer than has anyone else (including Djokovic and Murray), and it is mainly because of the strengths of Nadal's game that allow him to get at the one relative technical weakness in Federer's shot making arsenal, which is the backhand played from about shoulder height.

Sometimes one particular opponent causes even a top class player particular trouble - for Federer it has always been Nadal, whereas for Nadal it has tended to be players who take the ball early and flat. Davydenko used to be someone that Nadal had trouble with (H2H is 6-5 in Davydenko's favour), yet he's a player that Federer has had few problems with (H2H being 19-2 to Fed).

Of course this then raises the question that if Federer is so good, how come he's never been able to adapt his game to overcome these problems against Nadal. I'm not sure even the biggest Fed fans really know the answer to that other than on occasion stubbornness, and attempting to beat Nadal at Nadal's baseline grinding game (something that only Djokovic in the last couple of years has been able to do with any sort of consistency).

A high-bouncing left-handed top-spin forehand is a nightmare for a right-hander with a single-handed backhand.

Roller_Coaster wrote:Pele was my original firm call at the outset.

Pele remains so.

I have had a significant boost in respect and admiration for Federer throughout the process and had crookies crumbled elsewhere I now think this probably should have been the final. It isn't and while the initial gap between them has been eroded (significantly) in my mind, Pele is still my GOAT.

This would've been my final, as well.

I'm the other way around, Federer was my pick from the outset and I've voted for him in almost every round...and I have a huge amount of respect for Pele. I should vote for Federer, but for some reason I'm really hesitating here. Does he really deserve the nod over Pele, of all people? Never thought I'd be in a situation where choosing my own sporting GOAT feels vaguely wrong

As mentioned the other day, I have to ask you to excuse the man love as I vote for the most beautiful of the Beautiful Team.

Pele,
Best ever player in the biggest worldwide sport.
Can there be any other choice?
Not if logic prevails.

10's of footballers would beat him on logic.

Pele is foundly remebered dude thats all. he was the first footballing superstar, and due to that been bigged up beyond recognition.

Messi's performance last night was on a level that even pele couldnt comprehend.

Football has moved forward these days. each year that goes on the quailty rises..

I am not saying that if pele was around today he wouldnt be up there(because he would be part of the evolved sport). But his skillz from yester year are not on a par.

So yes we have to forget logic to vote for pele in all honesty. ANd imagine him up against players on a completely different level of quality in todays era

not sure i get the love fest for fed, certainly not over the likes of pele. perhaps there being a big tennis fraternity and many people who have never seen pele play while fed is current are the reason why he's winning

but pele for me, easily

dummy_half wrote:Of course this then raises the question that if Federer is so good, how come he's never been able to adapt his game to overcome these problems against Nadal.

Was a bit short on time earlier but this is the point I was trying to make I suppose. That if Federer is the greatest sportsman ever, not being able to come up with something to counteract his greatest rival Nadal is a quite a large weakness. Just dismissing it as a bad match is not good enough for me as the greatest of greats (which is what we are now down to) would come up with something to counterract it.

absolutely. Nadal being a bad match up for Federer is one thing (and undoubtedly true, Nadal's shots make it very very difficult for Federer's one-handed backhand). Federer never having found a solution (at least on clay, and not a consistent solution elsewhere) is quite another, and surely has to be considered a blot on his case for GOATness.

I still haven't quite decided how to vote in this one yet BTW.

It's funny having spent so long picking faults with these guys through this process as a means of comparison and having thought about it on depth and learned more about them... instead of appreciating them more they have all kind of gone down from the pedestal I had them on.
The search for the GOAT has somehow diminished the accolade.

Agreed Digs.. Everyone of them has an achilles heel

Big Dady might as well win now!

Definitely agree.

The worst one for me is Michael Jordan. I'm no basketball expert but I would recognise him as a sporting great. Now I literally hate the guy thanks to Spunky Hands!

the thing i find strange that someone modern like fed has over achieved imo due to being current, yet the likes of messi (who even if retired now would have claim for the greatest footballer of all time) and bolt (best sprinter of all time and possible claim to greatest athlete) have underachieved.

My two picks for the final. Both certainly better candidates than the other 2 semi finalists.

I think it's harsh to mark Federer down because of his record against Nadal. People are expecting him to not only be the GOAT of tennis but also the GOAT on all surfaces. Pele doesn't lose any marks for not being the best defender, defensive midfielder, winger, fullback or goalkeeper.

Before Federer it was generally accepted that players were specialists on particular surfaces. Hence the Jimmy Connors quote: "[In the modern game], you're either a clay court specialist, a grass court specialist or a hard court specialist ... or you're Roger Federer". Very few players have been legitimate threats on all surfaces in the past. Federer changed that. One could argue that the homogenisation of court speeds has made that easier and I think that's a valid point, but in all honesty, if one player in history had the tools to thrive in different conditions, it's Federer. This same homogenisation which may have helped him to dominate in his younger days is now probably making his task a lot more difficult with regards to winning further slams. Put him on a slick court and I'd still make him favourite over any of his younger rivals - sadly there aren't many of those around at the moment.

In any case I'd be happy with either of these guys winning. Whilst Pele's credentials are virtually questionable, the most iconic player of THE global sport, I'm gonna stick with my guns and go for Federer. Not so much because of the records, more for the virtuosity, the sheer brilliance. Sometimes it's just about the eye popping genius on display. I've never seen a sportsman so adept at his sport. Like John McEnroe said "this guy can do anything".



emancipator

mystiroakey wrote:10's of footballers would beat him on logic.

Pele is foundly remebered dude thats all. he was the first footballing superstar, and due to that been bigged up beyond recognition.

Messi's performance last night was on a level that even pele couldnt comprehend.

Football has moved forward these days. each year that goes on the quailty rises..

I am not saying that if pele was around today he wouldnt be up there(because he would be part of the evolved sport). But his skillz from yester year are not on a par.

So yes we have to forget logic to vote for pele in all honesty. ANd imagine him up against players on a completely different level of quality in todays era

Sorry, but i don't buy this.
Why are Pele's skills not on a par?
He might not have been as physically fit as today's footballers, but I don't see why he wasn't as skillfull.
Don't forget, in Pele's day he was liable to be kicked to pieces in a way that simply doesn't happen now. He also had to deal with a heavier ball and worse pitches.
Would Messi be so brilliant with defenders kicking him up in the air, with a heavy leather ball, on a dusty, bumpy pitch, or on a waterlogged mudbath?

Never understood this 'harder game' back then as a plus for older players..

The fact is the game has moved on and the level of quality isnt just better today- but 100 times better. The fitness, the skill levels, the particpatiion is leagues higher.

Rules change. But the positives out weigh the negatives.

like its anyones fault in this era.

Pele was a true pro and a true great back in his day. But many of the rest of them werent even fit enough to run for 20 minutes on the pitch.

It was a very unevolved rudementary game back then. Discounting players today because rules may favour atacking playets isnt just unfair(because they have to play to these rules) but also highly inaccurate

Spot on Hoggy,
Pele was kicked to pieces and out of the 1966 World Cup for instance.
And he was a lot better header of the ball than Messi has ever been.
Unlikely that Messi will win one World Cup, let alone three.

mysti,
He was far better than his contemporaries than subesquent contenders, revolutionized the way the game is played, as inluential in 1970 as he had been in 1958.

It's very true that you have to take the ball, boots and pitches into account when comparing Pele to Messi. The little guy was magic again last night though, his control is something else.

Your just using the big fish in a much smaller pond philosophy. In an era where it wasnt truely professional

Back in the day you didnt even need to fullfill your potential to play the game.

Watching clips of pele is like watching messi in 100* slow motion, the players around pele cant even pivot, they just seem stuck

Maradona beats both of them for pure skill. Dispite playing with all the disadvantages of Pele's generation (heavy balls, rubbish pitches, rubbish foortwear, chopping defenders) his skills even on grainy footage look comparable to the best of today.

mystiroakey wrote:Your just using the big fish in a much smaller pond philosophy. In an era where it wasnt truely professional

Back in the day you didnt even need to fullfill your potential to play the game.

Watching clips of pele is like watching messi in 100* slow motion, the players around pele cant even pivot, they just seem stuck

Bit like Cucumber Bradman then Oakey? He was only up against De-mob and Pre-mob conscripts.

mystiroakey wrote:
The fact is the game has moved on and the level of quality isnt just better today- but 100 times better. The fitness, the skill levels, the particpatiion is leagues higher.

I'll give you fitness. I'll give you participation. But I don't see that skill levels have, neccessarily, increased.
I certainly don't see that the quality today is 100 times better than it was in Pele's day.
As for players from the past having it 'harder', I'm not neccessarily saying that. I'm just pointing out that Pele had to deal with a different way of playing and overcame the difficulties that posed in the same way as someone like Messi has overcome the difficulties of playing today(although Pele was, perhaps, more successful ). However, personally, a bit like in the comparison between eras in cricket, I reckon that it would be easier for someone like Pele to adapt to today's game than it would be for smeone like Messi to adapt to football in Pele's day.

theres little doubt that it easier for flair players now due to not being able to try and tackle players. this current Barcelona team has developed the perfect style for non contact football whenever they get touched they go down and win a free kick. there really isn't much point in comparing peles era and messis its like comparing rugby and netball as there two different sports. you just have to appreciate what wonderful talents they were/are in there own era

Well I agree compelling-The eras are so different it is like comparing different sports.

Point is that is what this is all about!

And if we consider them different sports. we must understand that football today is much higher on the particpation scale therefore we should consider the sports stars of the 'bigger' sport(todays football) as acheving more..

Its the reason why sportsman from niche sports havent got through!

mystiroakey wrote:Well I agree compelling-The eras are so different it is like comparing different sports.

Point is that is what this is all about!

And if we consider them different sports. we must understand that football today is much higher on the particpation scale therefore we should consider the sports stars of the 'bigger' sport(todays football) as acheving more..

Its the reason why sportsman from niche sports havent got through!

but pele is one of the reasons why football is so much bigger now

"but pele is one of the reasons why football is so much bigger now"

that hasnt really got anything to do with it from my pov dude.

Very true compelling,
Pele captured the attention of non-sports fans like no-one before or since, whilst leading the Brazil team that captivated football fans the world over.

mystiroakey wrote:"but pele is one of the reasons why football is so much bigger now"

that hasnt really got anything to do with it from my pov dude.

surely influence and impact on chosen sport goes towards goatness

Kwini. You came from that era. The era that brought sport to the world. Many of the supposed goats come from this first global era!

Its not so much about the sports stars doing what they did but more about the fact that they were the first to be viewed on a mass scale due to the advancement in the media and global sporting coverage!

compelling and rich wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"but pele is one of the reasons why football is so much bigger now"

that hasnt really got anything to do with it from my pov dude.

surely influence and impact on chosen sport goes towards goatness

For you maybe. For me not so. He was just lucky in a way to be born at the right time. When sports stars were exiting and new and could never do any wrong!

Greatest Of All Time

Not greatest of the past ten years.

Correct kiwni.

Your point?

compelling and rich wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well I agree compelling-The eras are so different it is like comparing different sports.

Point is that is what this is all about!

And if we consider them different sports. we must understand that football today is much higher on the particpation scale therefore we should consider the sports stars of the 'bigger' sport(todays football) as acheving more..

Its the reason why sportsman from niche sports havent got through!

but pele is one of the reasons why football is so much bigger now

Hardly.. If it hadn't been Pele it would have been someone else. Football was the global sport even before Pele. Probably because it's easy to play, doesn't require much equipment and is fun (unlike running).

Should messi have been here instead of Pele?

Yes

No

Azzy Mahmood wrote:You don't sign up for a new forum and post in a GOAT thread, you sign up here for a particular sport and post there first. Very dodge.

Hi you lot, no I'm nothing to do with Spaghetti Hans and his mob, I signed up for here last year but so have been lurking only on the tennis thread enjoying (in the main) the sometimes erudite and (mainly) knowledgeable comments from the posters on there. I've been watching tennis for an awful long time (nearly as long as Laverfan!) so when this poll got to the business end I felt compelled to help Roger attain his rightful and long overdue place as Greatest Athlete Of All Time (GAOAT) . Can I vote again, if not I've got a tennis match to watch very shortly from Indian Wells. (Oh by the way Emancipator, love your style...and Julius love your irony...) Biee.

Federer for me. Pele' they say was great, but I have never quite seen convincing recorded evidence of him doing the kind of stuff Maradona did.

Bestoffive your an open book mate.. seriously

emancipator wrote: I'm gonna stick with my guns and go for federer. Like John McEnroe said "this guy can do anything".



emancipator

... Except hit a high bouncing backhand, apparently.

Federer into the final then. Let's hope this final isn't at Roland Garros against Nadal, the "bad match up"

Pele was just the black Rodney Marsh