Third Tier Nation wins 6Nations .... Again!!

First topic message reminder :

I know there will be those who quite rightly state that it is the same for every team but there is still something not right in the following.

The 2011 RWC semi finalists who subsequently showed that they are unquestionably the strongest team in the northern hemisphere by scoring back to back 6nations Championships in 2012 and 2013, have ended up ranked a third tier seed for the 2015 RWC and have the unenviable task of playing Australia and England at HQ. It is true that Wales suffered a temporary deterioration in results for a short period of time which saw them drop from 5th to 9th but have subsequently climbed back up to 5th.
Is it sheer bad luck that this happened at the precise time when the draw was made THREE years before the tournament or is the ranking system flawed?

I personally think the mental issue is over-stated.

The skills of the SH IMO are simply higher and their consistency in excellence is also very high. They rarely have a poor game and even when they do its often good enough for the win.

Look at AUS and a few of their top players

O'Connor - wing for AUS but is really a 10 or 12 (probably his best)
Beale - wing/fullback for AUS but has also plays 10.
Barnes - 10,12,13 or 15, comfortable in all.
Ashley-Cooper - played wing/fullback, inside and outside centre regularly.

All of them comfortable as first receiver, all of them with all-round skills. It gives them a lot of options, keeps the opposition guessing where its going to go etc... and they all have pace to burn as well.

England haven't had a player of the above calibre since Mike Catt... and he was raised in SA.

North - wing for Wales but is really a 12 or 13 (probably his best)
1/2p - wing/fullback for Wales but could also play 10.
Hook - 10,12,13 or 15, comfortable in all.
Roberts - played wing/fullback, and centre regularly.
Tipuric - plays 7 to exceptionally high standard, could play 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
I could go on...

Wales are not in too shabby a state.

The difference is I think Hook out of your list is the only one that actually does change around his position regularly and isn't in the same league to be honest. The rest is the odd test/mid match injury/theory... Tipuric like George Smith was very versatile but when have they ever played elsewhere.... playing 9... thoughts of Bergamasco enters the mind!

Those 4 I mentioned above... they literally play 3 different positions a season... every season.

The only guy who I would say Wales had in terms of this class of versatility was Henson in recent years... but best not get into that here for obvious reasons.

Yes, okay, Tips at 9 is going a bit far....

I take your point, but we have the basic skills in my opinion, just sometimes don't get used too often....

granted, those ozzies you list exhibit perhaps a tad more flair!

He's got some gas though... who was it he outsprinted for Cuthberts try... I think it was Farrell covering the inside and he couldn't get near him. It was like seeing Michael Jones in full flight back in the day.

I also believe that about Wales. Guys like Halfpenny are multiskilled... he hardly gets used in attack but would be a very useful addition to the line... instead he's always held back and the ball is given to the larger players to smash holes through defences.

fa0019 wrote:He's got some gas though... who was it he outsprinted for Cuthberts try... I think it was Farrell covering the inside and he couldn't get near him. It was like seeing Michael Jones in full flight back in the day.

I also believe that about Wales. Guys like Halfpenny are multiskilled... he hardly gets used in attack but would be a very useful addition to the line... instead he's always held back and the ball is given to the larger players to smash holes through defences.

Tip burnt Barrett for pace for that second try

i think it was barrett he left behind....could be wrong.

halfpenny is seriously quick. agree, they should use him more.

You have to keep the opposition thinking.

Are they going to drive straight in, are they going to offload, are they going to chip etc. Keep opposition holding back players for possible moves rather than all lined up with tin hats on ready for the coming route 1 onslaught.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZBJUDh709Y

A guy like Halfpenny is perfect for this sort of backline move (Try in last years Currie Cup Final by Juan De Jongh). It may be club rugby but that was WP vs. Natal... currently the 2 best franchises in SA and the players in both backlines were world class.

fa0019 wrote:Anyone thinking SA and AUS are looking vunerable should think again. They both have youngish sides and the talent coming through is better then ever... I myself see last years emerging players in SA as good as the class of 04.. and more talent is coming through this year too.

I think the RC this year will be epic. I fancy AUS to win the title... always happens in lions years.

.

Interesting comment Fa...
Oz always wins in Lions years?

which really means...when the Lions toured Oz in 2001, Oz won the 3N. The other 3 Lions years NZ won 2 and SA won one.

So Oz won once during a Lions tour 12 years ago and lost the other 3.

Like last year I think you'll find we are pushing just as many players through to the superxv as Oz and SA. Oz are at present the weakest of the sxv sides, the Brumbies standing out a mile. Injuries have plagued them through overplaying their best players since they won the title in 2011. Personlly I think the Lions will take the stuffing out of Oz and theyll be overcooked for the RC.

SA simply need to find a way of beating Oz to have a show this year.

Taylorman

What I meant was the host near always wins the forthcoming 3N title.... Happened for 3 straight series.
Given that this year it's a series to AUS then I fancy them.... The have all the momentum which we know is so important in the RC.

AUS first game after the lions series is home to NZ...win that And I think that they may prove unstoppable. I myself think its going to be mighty difficult for the lions.... The way the brumbies took the game to the sharks showed how decent their forwards can be... And if they get level pegging with that backline it's game over.

This weekend will be interesting... Our pack is massive, say 930kg so we'll be a huge test in newlands... And we owe them a few given they've done us over the before in recent memory. If the brumbies can stand our forwards pressure and sneak another away victory it will show the lions that AUS will be another Everest.

Ok, fair enough. I'd have thought it would be harder to win the 3N after such a tour but there you go. There are plusses in it. I still believe that this year it will hurt more than help their RC particularly when theyre still fragile in terms of their experience and injuries tend to play a bigger part with Oz over last two years. The sxv and Lions series could easily pile up the injuries- Pocock already gone- not that he was a dead cert, they'll need someone to combat Tipuric- Smith if available, Hooper and Gill can all fill the role.

The Brumbies Sharks game is easily the 'test' of the weekend. Sharks were a bit off last week and White has the Brumbies humming.

I went for Brumbies by 8.

My interest is in how the Blues come back vs the Tahs. I agree with Hansen when he says the Blues have set the template for the game this year with the direct, hard and straight running approach combined with high levels of individual skill in the backs. I'm anticipating a big win this weekend...

There is a change though. 1 its four nations now not 3. Arg and the travel may have some say in matters. 2 NZ have the French here for 3 matches as well (I don't know who is touring SA or Arg) so they should be fully prepared also.

O'Connor - wing for AUS but is really a 10 or 12 (probably his best)

And yet he's Full Back for the Rebels!

nganboy wrote:There is a change though. 1 its four nations now not 3. Arg and the travel may have some say in matters. 2 NZ have the French here for 3 matches as well (I don't know who is touring SA or Arg) so they should be fully prepared also.

'

Yes but who are the French going to send? After their 6N they probably want to call it all off.

Nganboy

1. well given we were talking about the past tournaments post lions series it was right to refer to the competition as the 3N.

2. The problem oncemore with the France tour is that the players from the top 4 sides will not be able to play until at best the 2nd test. Why, because the domestic competition final is on the 1st June. The first test is on the 8th. You can't expect players to play a final on saturday, fly 24hr to NZ and be ready for the first test. At best they will be in on the 2nd test.... and given their side is dominated by the top 2-3 sides... the first test in all likelihood will be a 2nd XV washout.

SA are also only facing Italy, Scotland and Samoa.... Not exactly the sort of ideal preparation for playing in the RC. It happened in the last 3 lions series... the host is prepared after 3 big tests and hits the ground running and then gone on to win the competition.