A Taste of the Squad for the England Summer Tour?

ESPN have an interesting article...

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/179047.html

Basically naming some of the youngsters that Lancaster has said we can expect to see feature on the tour. Here's the main jist of it:

"Stuart Lancaster is ready to use the "critical" summer tour of Argentina as a vehicle to ramp up the pressure on established members of the England team - including captain Chris Robshaw.

Lancaster will be without a number of his senior players for the four-match trip to South America in June, with the likes of Robshaw, Tom Croft and Dan Cole among those set for British and Irish Lions duty. Lancaster will use his captain's absence as a golden chance to take a close look at Worcester's Matt Kvesic, Saracens' Will Fraser and Robshaw's Harlequins understudy Luke Wallace.

Wales, as Australia did in the autumn, proved the value of playing with an out-and-out ball-winning openside flanker against an England back row that was committed but unbalanced in Saturday's Six Nations decider. Cole has missed only one Test since his debut in 2010 but forwards coach Graham Rowntree is excited by the prospect of blooding Sale's Henry Thomas on the summer tour.

Lancaster is also ready to give Billy Twelvetrees another opportunity in midfield after the Gloucester centre was dropped to the bench two games into the Six Nations. The entire England back three are under pressure. Chris Ashton's form has plummeted while Alex Goode's full-back claims would be weakened by the inclusion of Twelvetrees as a ball-playing centre.

Lancaster has acknowledged the need for speed and power, which could precipitate Manu Tuilagi being moved to the wing while he also has the exciting trio of Christian Wade, Marland Yarde and Jonny May pressing their claims hard."

All good until you get to the Manu on the wing part. But to be honest, he'll probably be away on a different tour so it won't be an issue.

At least it sounds like Lancaster is learning from his mistakes.

Good article, thanks for posting.

So the need for an out and out 7. Does this mean now that Robshaw is NOT seen as that.

Does that mean we could eventually see...
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic (Maybe Fraser)
8 Morgan / Vunipola

It means we would defo need some lineout ability in the Second Row...so Parling would be safe.

Robshaw is a 7, what Robshaw isn't or what Lancaster doesn't want him spending his time doing is being on the wrong side of the ref and at the bottom of rucks, the coaches seem to want to see more of him supporting plays and clearing up mistakes as well as linking.

I think the youngsters are there to bring pace and an all out focus on the breakdown, not necessarily needed all the time but it's an option that we must have.

One problem for Robshaw playing 7 is that he still seems to be England's main ball carrier, so inevitably ends up at the bottom of rucks, rather than off linking play. I appreciate the loss of Morgan who probably would have been the main carrier, and the decision to play Wood at no 8 who isn't a heavy ball carrier, probably necessitated this.

If England do go with a 7 who isn't Robshaw, I would assume Wood will get the nod at 6 as he is a better 6 than Robshaw, better in the line out, etc. So unless someone really puts their hand up at 7, I think it will be Robshaw there for the forseable future, if only as the stand out captain.

It will be interesting to see a new look to the backs in view of the criticism of the England back line. I hope the likes of Burns, Twelvetrees, Yarde, etc get a chance without the team being too young and experimental. Argentina can be a tough and unforgiving place to tour.

Im sorry but theres simply no way at the moment anyone can justify dropping Robshaw. The guy is immense...and even in a woeful defeat on Saturday was standout...ironically as Tom Wood was in the major kicking from ireland in 2011.

Maybe we should stick with them for the moment...and bring in a heavy duty carrier to 8.
At least with Robshaw away with the Lions...we get the chance to look at the 3 pretenders at 7.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry but theres simply no way at the moment anyone can justify dropping Robshaw. The guy is immense...and even in a woeful defeat on Saturday was standout...ironically as Tom Wood was in the major kicking from ireland in 2011.

Maybe we should stick with them for the moment...and bring in a heavy duty carrier to 8.
At least with Robshaw away with the Lions...we get the chance to look at the 3 pretenders at 7.

I think we'll have to, but I'd like other players to be given a shot as well, at least from the bench. I still think there's a place for Haskell on the flank. In certain games I think a heavy duty 6 role is made for him. The other 7s probably aren't as physical as Robshaw so Haskell on the bench may be necessary if say Wood and Kvesic/Fraser are getting out muscled. If our pack isn't pretty damn robust, Argentina will beat them up.

Should also say that I have grave misgivings about Tuilagi about a long-term 13. I'd like him there defensively but ultimately I wonder if he would make a better wing? I really am not convinced he has the grey matter for 13.

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry but theres simply no way at the moment anyone can justify dropping Robshaw. The guy is immense...and even in a woeful defeat on Saturday was standout...ironically as Tom Wood was in the major kicking from ireland in 2011.

Maybe we should stick with them for the moment...and bring in a heavy duty carrier to 8.
At least with Robshaw away with the Lions...we get the chance to look at the 3 pretenders at 7.

I think we'll have to, but I'd like other players to be given a shot as well, at least from the bench. I still think there's a place for Haskell on the flank. In certain games I think a heavy duty 6 role is made for him. The other 7s probably aren't as physical as Robshaw so Haskell on the bench may be necessary if say Wood and Kvesic/Fraser are getting out muscled. If our pack isn't pretty damn robust, Argentina will beat them up.

I actually think Kvesic is probably the most physical out of all the 7s mentioned to be honest. His carrying is pretty ferocious at times, whereas Robshaw (as good as his carrying is) seems to steam over rather than fight through tacklers.

It's a pretty annoying situation to be honest. I loved our backrow combination of 6. Wood 7. Robshaw, but really really want to see Kvesic and the other guys given a chance too....but without losing Wood or Robshaw. God damn it.

Matt Ksevic's most impressive stat in the AP is 28 defenders beaten.

Him and Fraser will be fighting for the 7 shirt in my opinion.

Going by the stats I can't see Wallace being considered currently.

Wallace carry stats are very poor - 43 carries, 67 metres made. No clean breaks and only 1 defender beaten in 8 games.

Penalties and turnovers conceded isn't great when you factor him playing for one of the best sides in England.

Good tackle stats admittedly.

I think Kvesic will start the first game at 7. And probably Fraser off the bench...with the opposite in the 2nd test.

Ive said it for a long time now and Ill say again...i like our second row (Launchbury has the potential to be a top class international for years) and Parling has impressed everyone..not just his lineout work but his alround game....HOWEVER, i'd just like to see a heavy duty SR in there. Hopefully launchbury or one of the others like Slater, Kruis can really make that role their own...we shall see.

I am really looking forward to Kvesic getting a go, while I think Fraser and Wallace are good players and will get a shot at some point, for me Kvesic should be next on the list for 7's.

A move to Glaws will be interesting too, I wonder if with the support of Morgan next to him, he will end up with fewer carries, or whether with Hamiliton leaving he will just carry on in that regard?

Why change his game BAthman...when it has obviously been so effective.

Also for England its a bonus potentially have Morgan and Kvesic playing together.
How about a future back row of..
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

I'm starting to like the look of the Gloucster pack for next season.

Hudson and Savage in the boiler room, with Qera at 6, Kvesic at 7, and Morgan at 8.

Very nice indeed.

Geordiefalcon equally you could have a future backrow of

6.Wood
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola


Billy Vunipola has beaten an incredible 41 defenders in the AP! Only 2 clean breaks surprisingly.

Penalties conceded and turnovers conceded needs a lot of work though!


Which is better in your opinion - defenders beaten or clean breaks?


On another note Mako Vunipola is actually an awesome tackler - 78 tackles made, 3 missed.

I think it depends on position, but to me defenders beaten is more important. Less opposition payers in place to defend the attack, more room for support runners, more chance of scoring.

Just my opinion. I would say that though- I'm a flanker and my last clean break came in 2004!

Beshocked,

Im not disputing that. That would be an impressive back row aswell. It goes to show we have some impressive options opening up....

Whats your thoughts on the Second Rows?

bluestonevedder wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry but theres simply no way at the moment anyone can justify dropping Robshaw. The guy is immense...and even in a woeful defeat on Saturday was standout...ironically as Tom Wood was in the major kicking from ireland in 2011.

Maybe we should stick with them for the moment...and bring in a heavy duty carrier to 8.
At least with Robshaw away with the Lions...we get the chance to look at the 3 pretenders at 7.

I think we'll have to, but I'd like other players to be given a shot as well, at least from the bench. I still think there's a place for Haskell on the flank. In certain games I think a heavy duty 6 role is made for him. The other 7s probably aren't as physical as Robshaw so Haskell on the bench may be necessary if say Wood and Kvesic/Fraser are getting out muscled. If our pack isn't pretty damn robust, Argentina will beat them up.

I actually think Kvesic is probably the most physical out of all the 7s mentioned to be honest. His carrying is pretty ferocious at times, whereas Robshaw (as good as his carrying is) seems to steam over rather than fight through tacklers.

It's a pretty annoying situation to be honest. I loved our backrow combination of 6. Wood 7. Robshaw, but really really want to see Kvesic and the other guys given a chance too....but without losing Wood or Robshaw. God damn it.

You could be right on Kvesic. I'm not sure what it is about him that makes me think that. He's well conditioned and a pretty compact player, he's just not as naturally bulky as soon of the other players in that position. And he's, not yet, as well conditioned as Pocock or other smaller 7s (who is?!). I've seen him carry quite well in the past, but I've also seen him get smashed back when he doesn't get his body position absolutely right as he doesn't have the sheer weight. It'd be good to see how he could handle the Pumas. I actually find his number of turnovers quite surprising. He's not lightning but he does seem to have the knack of being at the right place at the right time. His physique is well suited to the sort of 'scavenger' role, but when I've seen him he doesn't look as solid over the ball as I'd expect, might be just the games I've watched. Pretty exciting prospect though, and yeah, how can we shoehorn in all these players - wouldn't worry though, looks like SL prefers to play the best players rather than the best in their position!

Yeah totally agree...with the likes of Billy, Ben Morgan etc...im not remotely bothered about how many "clean breaks" he makes...i want to see him smashing the line carrying two or three defenders with him, then popping the little offload to a player flying through the gap at pace....

2 interesting and very possible backrows there Geordie and beshocked.

Exciting (for an anorak like me anyway) to see which of these youngsters comes through.

The issue with both of those will be the second row I suppose. As in Geordie's back row would be defensively solid and be great carrying the ball, but it would rely on the second rows in the lineout.

Whereas beshocked would have Wood as a lineout option, but maybe would rely slightly more on Billy V to make yards. Generalising of course I know Fraser is more than capable of running forward holding the ball, but you see my point!

beshocked, for me, I think defenders beaten is the more important stat for a no.8. That shows power in getting across the gainline whereas clean breaks are more likely to come from loitering on the wing.

Hood83 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry but theres simply no way at the moment anyone can justify dropping Robshaw. The guy is immense...and even in a woeful defeat on Saturday was standout...ironically as Tom Wood was in the major kicking from ireland in 2011.

Maybe we should stick with them for the moment...and bring in a heavy duty carrier to 8.
At least with Robshaw away with the Lions...we get the chance to look at the 3 pretenders at 7.

I think we'll have to, but I'd like other players to be given a shot as well, at least from the bench. I still think there's a place for Haskell on the flank. In certain games I think a heavy duty 6 role is made for him. The other 7s probably aren't as physical as Robshaw so Haskell on the bench may be necessary if say Wood and Kvesic/Fraser are getting out muscled. If our pack isn't pretty damn robust, Argentina will beat them up.

I actually think Kvesic is probably the most physical out of all the 7s mentioned to be honest. His carrying is pretty ferocious at times, whereas Robshaw (as good as his carrying is) seems to steam over rather than fight through tacklers.

It's a pretty annoying situation to be honest. I loved our backrow combination of 6. Wood 7. Robshaw, but really really want to see Kvesic and the other guys given a chance too....but without losing Wood or Robshaw. God damn it.

You could be right on Kvesic. I'm not sure what it is about him that makes me think that. He's well conditioned and a pretty compact player, he's just not as naturally bulky as soon of the other players in that position. And he's, not yet, as well conditioned as Pocock or other smaller 7s (who is?!). I've seen him carry quite well in the past, but I've also seen him get smashed back when he doesn't get his body position absolutely right as he doesn't have the sheer weight. It'd be good to see how he could handle the Pumas. I actually find his number of turnovers quite surprising. He's not lightning but he does seem to have the knack of being at the right place at the right time. His physique is well suited to the sort of 'scavenger' role, but when I've seen him he doesn't look as solid over the ball as I'd expect, might be just the games I've watched. Pretty exciting prospect though, and yeah, how can we shoehorn in all these players - wouldn't worry though, looks like SL prefers to play the best players rather than the best in their position!

Spot on Hood. I'd compare him to Michael Hooper out of all the 7s at the moment. Not the tallest, but well built, and quick to the breakdown.

So true about the highlighted bit too!

The trouble with comparing stats for back row players is that it depends a lot on how they are used. The Harlequins 7s are generally used to tidy up slow ball and act as link men; they also quite often pass or offload before contact. With Easter, Fa'asavalu and Guest (and most of the rest of the pack) available for the big carrying duties, the 7s are used in a different way.

I would still say that Kvesic is ahead of Wallace as a candidate, but that's more a question of experience than anything else.

On second row, I am still expecting Charlie Matthews to get a call sooner rather than later. He was Launchbury's U20 partner, and has the big advantage of being both able to run a lineout (he does for Quins when Robson is absent) and a big unit (basically the same size as Etzebeth). Has some work to do on body position when carrying, but has looked more and more impressive as the season has progressed.

It's trying being an England fan sometimes. We spent years working without a genuine open-side, with fans constantly discussing the benefits and admiring the resources of other nations. Now we have Matt Kvesic, Luke Wallace and Will Fraser coming through who look the part (Not to mention Chris Robshaw!). Why couldn't one of them have been born 4-5 years earlier?!? You have to believe at least one of them is going to be left out in international wilderness.

As Pourfour say's we don't necessarily need our 7 to be a carrier, and at international level they'll struggle to carry a lot anyway as they'll be spending a lot more time in defence. Also when you have Morgan/Vunipola/Fearns/Wood/Robshaw at 6 and/or 8 your 7 should be able to focus on being a nuisance and linking plays.

I actually thought Fraser was the most physical, just seems really gritty when i've seen him play, like you expect Callum Clark to be but without the need to put people in A&E.

Mako's tackling stats aren't as impressive when you think they'll nearly all be on other props and tight five forwards carrying in heavy traffic relatively slowly compared to him. Flankers will nearly always have the worst stats as they're often chasing scrum halves or other backs.

yappysnap wrote:As Pourfour say's we don't necessarily need our 7 to be a carrier, and at international level they'll struggle to carry a lot anyway as they'll be spending a lot more time in defence. Also when you have Morgan/Vunipola/Fearns/Wood/Robshaw at 6 and/or 8 your 7 should be able to focus on being a nuisance and linking plays.

I actually thought Fraser was the most physical, just seems really gritty when i've seen him play, like you expect Callum Clark to be but without the need to put people in A&E.
Mako's tackling stats aren't as impressive when you think they'll nearly all be on other props and tight five forwards carrying in heavy traffic relatively slowly compared to him. Flankers will nearly always have the worst stats as they're often chasing scrum halves or other backs.