light or heavy pack for the lions

i woundering if playing Australia your better off with a heavier pack and blowing them away in the forwards or are the lions better off having a smaller pack but still affective in the scrum and better in the loose.

so im sticking a few packs potential packs together

Light but dangerous in the loose pack:
LH- Gethin Jenkins
H- Rory Best
TH- Dan Cole
SR- Geoff Parling
SR- AWJ
BF- Kelly Brown
OF- Justin Tipric
8- Faletau

the power pack:
LH- Cian Healy
H- Richard Hibbard
TH- Adam Jones
SR- Paul O'Connell
SR- Richie Gray
BF- Robshaw
OF- SOB
8- Ben Morgan

Or a pack with power and loose game:
LH- Cian Healy
H- Richard Hibbard
TH- Dan Cole
SR- Paul O'Connell
SR- Ian Evans
BF- SOB
OF- Sam Warburton
8- Faletau

I think it is important to have as strong a scrummaging unit as possible, the in all likelyhood the games will be played on fast grounds, so they must be mobile

I can see them definitely going for a mix of things.

Its often hard to define. For example you have Healy listed as a "power pack". However I would have assumed him to be a very mobile prop and indeed he is shorter and lighter than Gethin Jenkins.

But really I think it depends on a lot of things. If we play a "natural 7" then I see Rory Best losing out for example.

I would expect us right now to see:

01 Gethin Jenkins
02 Richard Hibbard
03 Adam Jones
04 Alun Wyn Jones
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Chris Robshaw
07 Justin Tipuric
08 Toby Falatau

16 Rory Best
17 Cian Healy
18 Dan Cole
19 Nathan Hines
20 Sean O'Brien

the reason i went for Jenkins in the one pack is because hes like a extra back row and and dont seem as good as healy in the scrum i could be wrong but thats what i thought to be right

Staf, from the sounds of it the Aussies are making waves for George Smith to be called up, there are some issues though, his Japanese Club Santori will have to OK it.

If he is selected you will have to counter that with a natural 7.

welshboii15 wrote:the reason i went for Jenkins in the one pack is because hes like a extra back row and and dont seem as good as healy in the scrum i could be wrong but thats what i thought to be right

Ah yea I'm just nitpicking. I know what you mean. There is a danger with selecting too many "extra backrows" though I feel.

However I think that an all Welsh front row offesets that. Best is a superior hooker to Hibbard IMO and arguably Healy is better than Jenkins.

However for me there are more positives as a unit to picking Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones.

Interesting question. I think we want to do enough to beat them in the scrums but I'm not sure it's worth going all out to stuff them on that front - it puts too much in the hands of the SH refs and besides Aus have shown before that they can win whilst getting destroyed in the set piece.

That sorted (once we have picked Jones) the next two concerns are:

- play with some control so we don't fall prey to their fast back row robbing us at the breakdown too much
- get some momentum in the forwards to suck in defenders - Oz's defence is good and if we don't disrupt it up front our backs likely aren't good enough to break it themselves.

So I think go for power over pace, but favour impact in the loose over set piece skill.

Something like

Healy Hibbard Jones
O'Connell Evans
Robshaw Tipuric
SOB

might achieve this, but I don't know enough about all those players to be sure.

the weakness IMO is the Pack for Australia and that could really be our strength where their strength is their backs where that could be our weakness so i thought if we really give them a beating in the pack then that could give the backs that little bit extra to take them on

Biltong wrote:Staf, from the sounds of it the Aussies are making waves for George Smith to be called up, there are some issues though, his Japanese Club Santori will have to OK it.

If he is selected you will have to counter that with a natural 7.

I don't see why this is the only response. On the wing if a team has an outstanding attacking talent people you are supposed to counter it with the opposite - a good defensive winger. But if a team picks a specialist 7 people assume you have to counter it with exactly the same thing. Well that's a fat lot of good if your specialist 7 is half a yard behind theirs. Sometimes the best defence is just to accept that the opposition have an outstanding loose forward and focus on denying him opportunities, just as you would with Lomu or Habana out wide. No player is going to get many turnovers if you control yourself in the loose and always support your carrier.

That said I think Tipuric (probably our best specialist 7?) is a fine all round player and I'd be inclined to pick him regardless of what Oz are doing.

We should pick the best set piece 8 we can with a "real" 7 and ball carrying 8. Then we also have Phillips, the worlds best 81/2

thats also a good thing with tipuric is that there aint many flankers faster than him so he can get to the break down most of the time faster than others so that sums up smith, but that aint always the answers if we control the break down when we have the ball and attack theirs then we will do fine

Anyone else think this whole "SH ref" business is a bit of a red herring.

Really I mean, Craig Joubert refereed Wales, England and Scotland this 6 Nations. He reffed Wales and Ireland last 6 Nations. He reffed Wales in the Autumn.

Steve Walsh refereed Ireland, Wales and England this 6 Nations. He reffed England and Wales last 6 Nations.

Romain Poite refereed Wales (twice) and Ireland this 6 Nations. He reffed Wales and England in the Autumn. He reffed Wales and Scotland last 6 Nations.

We are used to them. It isn't going to be a surprise how the game is reffed.

Biltong - do fans in the SH get like this about referees. It truly baffles me how much wringing of hands there has been about the referee appointments. Its the same refs we are used to. Whats the big issue. If it was Barnes or Clancy or Rolland or a Scottish referee people would be whinging too.

EDIT: I see its Chris Pollock not Walsh reffing the 1st Test!

Stag, I was wathching the Bulls vs Reds game in Canberra this weekend, there were some poor decisions, but theworst one was when the referee, I think his surname was Lecky, yellow carded Lionel Mapoe when James Slipper tried to dive over him on attack, Mapoe got under him, tried to get hold of the player, but his monentum took him over Mapoe who did not have the ability to stop a 120 kg bloke from falling over him.

I was watching Re Union tonight, Tane Randall, TJ the host and Justin Marshall was in studio, they unanimously believed that yellow card turned the game towards the Reds and bekieves the refee should be banned four 4 weeks.

The benefit we have in the SH is that there is always a neutral country (not involved in a particualr match) so the level headed comments will come from them.

Unfortunately referees often cops unfair criticism, it is our duty though to sift through the accusations and complaints and decide for ourselves what we think is fair criticism and what not.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the answer depends on whether we want to deprive the Aussies of possession (pick a pack full of muscle) or whether all we need is parity to let our backs dazzle them with Owen Farrell's repertoire of passing.
Now that i put it that way, we should go for a muscle pack....... As per the OP but finding room for Jamie Heaslip

Backrow-wise I think the Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau combo that we were rather concerned about prior to the England match is unanswerable. Wood and Robshaw are cracking players but the Welsh Trio blew the english lads off the park...

That said... THis tour like all other previously is about making the best of the players, i don't think a golden trio of singular national glory has ever made a great lions backrow.

I hope very much that Wood, Robshaw, Heaslip, Jones and Beattie go and when training all together we create the correct superlative to describe what fantastic things can happen.

For me a mix of weight and athleticism is necessary to create our ultimate pack. There is plenty of talent available, no one's name is carved into the team yet, the result of these good lads all training together could really be something sublime and hopefully unexpected.

i was thinking muscle to keep the ball etc but i also thought a fast pack to get around the park that step faster than them.

the reason i didnt put Heaslip is because i should have put in the OP that the packs were just quick off top my head. i got the idea off the post from the lions back row post and because i didnt see his name i didnt think of him which i hold my hands up to that

maestegmafia wrote:For me a mix of weight and athleticism is necessary to create our ultimate pack. There is plenty of talent available, no one's name is carved into the team yet, the result of these good lads all training together could really be something sublime and hopefully unexpected.

Spot on. What Gatland must do is use training and the ealry warm up games to quickly asses his best combinations. I think as a result of the 6 Nations there is nobody who is nailed on to start, and how people settle into the squad will have an impact on selection.

The back row will be a particularly keenly contested area for selection. Can't wait to see who Gatland goes with, but one player I really hope is there and starts is Johnnie Beattie, who has been superb for Montpellier all season and was for my money the best number 8 in the 6 Nations.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:For me a mix of weight and athleticism is necessary to create our ultimate pack. There is plenty of talent available, no one's name is carved into the team yet, the result of these good lads all training together could really be something sublime and hopefully unexpected.

Spot on. What Gatland must do is use training and the ealry warm up games to quickly asses his best combinations. I think as a result of the 6 Nations there is nobody who is nailed on to start, and how people settle into the squad will have an impact on selection.

The back row will be a particularly keenly contested area for selection. Can't wait to see who Gatland goes with, but one player I really hope is there and starts is Johnnie Beattie, who has been superb for Montpellier all season and was for my money the best number 8 in the 6 Nations.

Ozzy, I became excited about the Lions in the late fifties and i can not remember the debate on who should be in or out being so open in all my life. No one is nailed on. The six nations has certainly re-shaped our opinions but no one is defined.

Re Number Eights, Beattie has been exceptional at Montpellier but i disagree that he was impressive in the Six Nations. Heaslip too. Toby Faletau was remarkable in my opinion, though a very different player to Heaslip and Beattie, and it so depends what type of game the squad and their coaches invent for the team to play... Toby the Athlete, Beattie the bruiser, Heaslip the all rounder.

Tough calls everywhere, great for debate. Shame we only have just over a month left to do so.

I thought Faletau got better as the tournament went on, and that may see him become the front runner, particularly if he finishes the season strongly at the Dragons, as you want players hitting form at the right time.

Heaslip I was disappointed with, and he would not be in my tour squad.

Having said that, I think my squad has changed on a day by day basis this week!

As a Scot, I thought Beattie had a very poor 6n. Apart from running over one English guy and then running sideways with the ball in one hand, all I can remember him doing is knocking on two restart kicks under no pressure to give the opposition the ball back in our 22, and not gaining ground from a steady scrum. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't dropped for Ryan Wilson if I am being totally honest

The mix of athleticism might come from the second row. Somebody like AWJ or Parling should get the nod there alongside a bruiser. What impresses me about the All Blacks current combo is that they are a mixture of both.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I thought Faletau got better as the tournament went on, and that may see him become the front runner, particularly if he finishes the season strongly at the Dragons, as you want players hitting form at the right time.

Heaslip I was disappointed with, and he would not be in my tour squad.

Having said that, I think my squad has changed on a day by day basis this week!

Heaslip was far from his best but i am sure will show good form for Leinster. Some players have class and form comes and goes but get them firing and they are un-dropable. Look at how Warburton turned his season around and we finally saw him back at his RWC defining best...!

Gatland is a good man manager with form, he gets some great performances from his players. I am sure he will do the same in Oz.

Re Number Eights, Beattie has been exceptional at Montpellier but i disagree that he was impressive in the Six Nations. Heaslip too. Toby Faletau was remarkable in my opinion, though a very different player to Heaslip and Beattie, and it so depends what type of game the squad and their coaches invent for the team to play... Toby the Athlete, Beattie the bruiser, Heaslip the all rounder.

Tough calls everywhere, great for debate. Shame we only have just over a month left to do so.[/quote]

i love how you defined each player and you were right for each of them, but i don't want sound like a complete welsh boob but i think Faletau is the closest to the shirt because in the 6 nations he wasn't out standing and quiet he still out played the number 8s he came up against IMO, and its like Heaslip was talked about because he wasn't playing like the player he is and Beattie was spoke about because he played well and gave people something to talk about, where Faletau wasn't spoke about that much because he went about his game like he does every game out standing and the the people speaking about the game expected no different ( if that makes sense)

If you want a big pack:

Vunipola
Best
Jones
Evans
Hines
SOB
Armitage
Falatou

I've seen a fair few reports and posts on here where Vunipola is mentioned as a potential option at loosehead. I am amazed by this. I know that Rowntree likes him and will have some say in selection, but he is a million miles away from the squad for me.

Healy, Jenkins, James, Grant and Marler all ahead of him, as well Corbisiero should he regain fitness in time (I believe this is unlikely).

Corbisiero is a big loss, he's a seriously good loosehead when fit. For me Vunipula is a better option than Marler but both should go to Argentina not Australia.

Gethin, Healy and James are all in line and Grant is hot on their heals.

Vunipula is from the rhondda they eat nothing less than half a cow and a crate of bow, which is the typical meal for a rugby player from there their all big as hell but some times over rated

Light but dangerous in the loose pack:
SR- Geoff Parling

the power pack:
LH- Cian Healy
SR- Richie Gray

Ideally a blend of both (do not scarifice strength for speed, the badir of underage rugby and at times top level), but a fast, mobile pack is the key to beating Oz in my opinion. Healy is probably somewhere in between the power and speed pack.

Richie grey is 20 plus stone behind that weight is power that's why he is there. Healy was in there because he's a better scrumager than Jenkins

welshboii15 wrote:Richie grey is 20 plus stone behind that weight is power that's why he is there. Healy was in there because he's a better scrumager than Jenkins

Paul James, Sheridan, Grant and Corbisero are bigger still and all better than either Healy or Jenkins in the Scrum. That said, Jenkins held his own in the scrum with some pretty tasty THs this Six Nations. I would say he is head and shoulders above most, Healy the closest to second.

I think it's important that we have a front row that are strong scrummagers and reasonably able around the park, so I'd go for Ford, Jones and Healy to start, then we should beat them at the scrum and have power in the loose. On the bench I'd have Grant, Hibbard and Murray because they are very stong srummagers and so in the last 20 minutes the Lions will dominate their scrum which will demoralise the Australians and allow them to let Farrell or Sexton to keep the scoreboard ticking and keep field position.
In the second row I'd have Gray and Alun Wyn Jones because they're athletic and strong in the lineout and scrum. Also the hard ground will suit Richie Gray due to his pace which is very good for a second row. I'd have O'Connell on the bench due to his experience and control going into the last quarter.
The back row is without as shadow of doubt the most competitive area and any of the nations could make a case for any of their starters going. I'd pick either Kelly Brown, Warburton or Tipuric on the blindside, on the openside I'd have Tipuric but I'd like to see how Rennie does in his next few games because if he can repeat last six nations form he could be in with a shout. At number 8 I'd have Beattie or Faletau to start because of the hard ground, they both have power and skill. On the bench I'd have O'Brien simply because he can cover every position and would be a very good impact sub.

Therefore my pack would be:

1. Healy
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Jones
6. Robshaw
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau

16. Grant
17. Hibbard
18. Murray
19. O'Connell
20. O'Brien

In the squad as well: Vunipola, Best, Launchbury, Lawes, Brown, Beattie, Warburton

But like said in another post I didn't sit down and give the greatest of thought into the packs and they were my opinions each person to their own

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21952652

Topical and interesting article on scrum weight theories, hooking (lack of), laws (or the ignoring thereof) and the general mess we now call the modern RU scrum.
Brian should know as that rare breed , a qualified ref who saw international front row service.

If Healy is supposedly better than Jenkins in the scrum, then IMO he is nailed on to start.

England are really missing Corbisiero. He's an outstanding player. Not too prominent in the loose on the internationl stage, but excellent in the scrum. He also appears to be able to alter his technique depending on the opposing scrummager, which is something England certainly didn't do this 6N!

When fit, he is a shoe in for England's LH, with Marler and Vunipola behind.

Without him, I can't see past Jenkins or Healy starting at loosie. I'd pick Healy purely for his work around the park. I'd have 1. Healy 2. Hibbard/Best 3. Jones as my starting front row. But, all depends on the mid-week games to start with I guess!

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've seen a fair few reports and posts on here where Vunipola is mentioned as a potential option at loosehead. I am amazed by this. I know that Rowntree likes him and will have some say in selection, but he is a million miles away from the squad for me.

Healy, Jenkins, James, Grant and Marler all ahead of him, as well Corbisiero should he regain fitness in time (I believe this is unlikely).

Ozzy will we even see Corbs back in a LI shirt this season? He was quality for England last year and it always surprised me how such a destructive player could act so unassuming off pitch and sound like David Walliams.

Yappy
Speaking of players whose voice doesn't match their appearance, have you heard Castrogiovanni?

Good article from Brian Moore, and he raises the very important point about player safety - the hit is not good for longevity of prop forwards, and obviously scrum collapses are just about the most dangerous aspect of the game, yet the current rules make scrums extremely unstable and prone to collapsing.

Time for the IRB and the refs to get together with experts on front row play and actually sort the current mess out - getting rid of the 'hit' would be a good start, and then enforcing the rules on the scrum being square and stable before put in. The result should be scrums that are safer, easier to referee and probably offer a bigger advantage to the better scrummaging side.

Heavy front 5, light back row would be my initial thoughts, but much will depend on how players perform on this tour itself.

My current thinking on the Lions pack:

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.AWJ 6.SOB 7.Warburton 8.Falatau

16.Jenkins 17.Best 18.Cole 19.Launchbury 20.Tipuric

yappysnap wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've seen a fair few reports and posts on here where Vunipola is mentioned as a potential option at loosehead. I am amazed by this. I know that Rowntree likes him and will have some say in selection, but he is a million miles away from the squad for me.

Healy, Jenkins, James, Grant and Marler all ahead of him, as well Corbisiero should he regain fitness in time (I believe this is unlikely).

Ozzy will we even see Corbs back in a LI shirt this season? He was quality for England last year and it always surprised me how such a destructive player could act so unassuming off pitch and sound like David Walliams.

I'll be amazed if we ever see him in a London Irish shirt again.

Does anyone feel that any of the 1st choice home nations packs would be a match for the Aussie pack anyway. Pocock aside in the open, this is a must traget area for sure?

I think all the packs could be more than a match for Australia but if we can improve the packs with 1,2 or even 3 changes to make a super pack then lets do it

One game against England has seriously affected rational thinking on Lions selection. It has happened far too much with us (Ireland) too over the past couple of years. A season of average performances and failures shunted aside with one good game. We had Australia in the WC and England in that season's Six Nations. People forgot how average to poor we were in other games and focused on one outstanding performances instead.

Like the majority of the Welsh players Jenkins had a very average four games in the championship and then excelled in the final match and this has coloured perceptions. He was over weight and out of shape at the start of the championship, and if he doesn't play much for Toulon he could be the same for the Lions. A Lions tour is not somewhere to play your way into fitness. If three loose heads go on the tour he might only get two games before the first test. So nailed on starter? Hardly.

As for hooker Best was exceptional against Wales, excellent against France, decent against England, average against Scotland and dreadful against Italy. People are pointing to his throwing but two points need to be made. Firstly, Hibbard had a poor day against Scotland so it happens. Secondly the entire Irish lineout was a shambles. Best threw some poor lineouts. others were stolen when the Italians got in front our the Irish man. Plus Ryan, who called the lineouts, failed to vary them whatsoever. The lineout is a collective success or failure. In reality Best's European Cup stats speak for themselves when he is playing in a competent team. That said, it the Lions play with one of, or two from Warburton, Tipuric or Robshaw is there a need for Best's breakdown work where has been head and shoulders above most backrow players this season let alone hookers? None of those three are good ball carriers in tight channels so Hibbard may be a horses for courses selection.

Adam Jones right now is the only Test certainty in my book. A possible captain as well.

I don't get the praise for Wyn Jones who has had a career of flattering to deceive and is a lightweight scrummager. I would have thought Evans would be a very strong contender to start for the test side and a superior player to Jones. The Welsh game aside I thought Parling had a excellent championship. I always thought of him as a very average player, but I have really been turned around on him. The spanner in the works will be if Gray gets back to fitness and form, or if Munster get past Quins in Europe and O'Connell plays well.

Gatland has a wide range of players with different abilities for the backrow. Falateau is an absolute shoe in for me. Morgan is Andy Powell reincarnated and Heaslip is bang out of form. Do you pick Beattie who had a very mixed Six Nations or hope that with a competent gamplan Heaslip might get back to form?

As for the 7 position I don't see the merit of picking Warburton, Tipuric and Robshaw. You are picking three players that do the same job. Tipuric must go. Can you ignore a season of poor form for club and country for one and half games of good rugby and pick Warburton, or pick Robshaw who is the least talented of the three but is possibly the most intelligent player and reader of the game of the three.

Then at six the obvious selections are Kelly Brown, a possible captain for me, and Sean O'Brien. You have to pick round pegs for round holes so I wouldn't consider picking Warburton or Robshaw to play there. Perhaps with such good options Gatland might throw in a wild card here. Ferris won't be fit. Armitage will probably not be available if we take Gatland at his word. I think Ryan Jones, if fit, would be worth a call up as someone who can cover the backrow and was playing well before injury. I am a Lydiate sceptic, I don't think he does enough around the pitch to really warrant a selection despite being raised to mythical levels during his injury.

You have to give credit to a team that have retained the title and one that turned adversity to success, the culmination will be remembered far more than the grafting previously, I admit, but all the same the reward is plain to see.

I think Wales have been well and truly garlanded by one and all for a very good turnaround through the 6 Nations, culminating in their great win over England in Cardiff.

As a result I think that the Welsh contingent in the Lions party will be bigger than it might otherwise have been and that is right but it must largely be looked at on the basis of individual performances and contributions.

The Lions selection debate is fascinating because you can come at from so many different angles. Heavy or light pack ? Form or reputation? Combinations or best individuals? Fit playing style to players or players to desired playing style?

It is an incredibly nuanced process comlicated of course by the strong desire to have some level of representation of all 4 nations in the squad at least if not the run on team.

I do not think that Wales' win in Cardiff or any of their team performances in games leading up to that should convey any particular advantage to an individual welsh player in a 50:50 decision where all other things may appear equal.

Take Gethin v Cian for example. Some people make them even. For what it is worth I think Cian is the better player full stop. Why? Because he is a more powerful ball carrier and we need those in our pack. Gethin is a good player and will do some spade work but I think our backrow will be more than up to that task. I think that picking players for their core functions is even more key with the Lions because we simply don’t need to worry about players covering each others' areas so much. We should be able to select out and out specialists in all positions and balance it all.

But I digress - let us say Gethin and Cian were equal - not "same" mind but equal - I wouldn't brainlessly credit the welshman. No I would look critically at what each of them brings to the party.

None of it is easy and with a top notch selector a degree of magic might be required - by which I mean the ability to see how a particular combination never before tried could add up to far more than the sum of it's parts.

Good luck to the Selectors!!

I will say that most here are forgetting that in the 6Ns the guy that has made a significant difference to the Welsh front three balance and structure was Ken Owens particularly against us and against England. That has unfairly classed him as an impact player when the reality is he played almost the entire second half and transformed the scrum, the loose play and dare I say it the match against England.

I would start (taking into account the first test is not until mid June and the "potential" players who are coming from injury if selected to go on the plane should have had some intensive training and game time) the following:

1. Healy / Jenkins (really find it tough to separate these two)
2. Owens
3. Jones

4. Launchberry
5. Gray

6. Lydiate
7. Rennie
8. Ryan Jones / Brown

(I was very impressed with Jones until he got injured, made the hard yards, doesn't tackle around the fringes like Faletau, and protects the scrumhalf channel which a good 8 should do)

I want a brutish heavy front row, mobile but large locks and a very mobile back row.
Healy Hibberd Jones
AWJ, POC/Gray if fit
Tipuric, Faletau, Robshaw/Warburton

That is pretty much my thinking too.

The pack will win the lions the series. We need the nastiest, most brutal and least forgiving 8 to start. They should grind them down in the first 50.

Players like Croft, Tipuric, Ken Owens could make some real damage as 2nd half players.