light or heavy pack for the lions

First topic message reminder :

i woundering if playing Australia your better off with a heavier pack and blowing them away in the forwards or are the lions better off having a smaller pack but still affective in the scrum and better in the loose.

so im sticking a few packs potential packs together

Light but dangerous in the loose pack:
LH- Gethin Jenkins
H- Rory Best
TH- Dan Cole
SR- Geoff Parling
SR- AWJ
BF- Kelly Brown
OF- Justin Tipric
8- Faletau

the power pack:
LH- Cian Healy
H- Richard Hibbard
TH- Adam Jones
SR- Paul O'Connell
SR- Richie Gray
BF- Robshaw
OF- SOB
8- Ben Morgan

Or a pack with power and loose game:
LH- Cian Healy
H- Richard Hibbard
TH- Dan Cole
SR- Paul O'Connell
SR- Ian Evans
BF- SOB
OF- Sam Warburton
8- Faletau

You're not playing on NH grounds in winter. You're playing generally in hard grounds in Australia. So a heavy pack is not going to trot around a cut up field. They will need to be mobile. If you think the Lions can blow the Aussie pack off the ground think about their record against SA and you see that they know how to contain physically and technically superior packs.

By all means pick a scrum that can dominate and some tall timber to win your lineouts. Having a set piece edge will only help the Lions but only if you realise that this will not be a clear advantage and that what you do with your possession is the key.

For me the back row is the key. I would have players like Tipuric who can not only get ball on defence but, more importantly, can link up play with their backline. Too often I have seen Lions teams try to bash up the centre with the pick and go. The Australian defence is usually solid. What the Lions must try to do is take the ball further away from the initial contact area. Using offloads in the tackles, linking up with players to get away from the fringes and over the advantage line is what the Lions must do. Talk of grinding them down is not giving them enough credit. You have to test the line more and make them work hard on defence. Tipuric has to be in the backrow for me and I think Gatland will look at that last games with his partnership with Warburton and think those two will start with Faletau. That may anger some and I don't believe individually they are necessarily the best but as a unit they have proven that they can combine well and link up with the rest of their players out wide. Gatland may start or bring on another combination but I have a feeling he will go for the Wales back three principally for the reasons of their linking play. And if that's the case, expect Phillips at halfback as well. Like I said, many of you might not like that...

Just a thought, but everyone talking about fielding a big brutish pack, surely that's what the Boks do. And look at their run of results against Australia, yes they won their most recent game against the Wallabies, but out of the last 6 times they've played Australia they've lost 5 times. Need a bit of brawn obviously but also a skilful ball playing pack.

See where you're coming from Glove, that could be a factor in deciding the pack, but I think best bet would be to design a pack that will destroy the Wallabies at scrum time.

Everyone in Australia will be expecting a big and powerful Lions pack. This could be a problem area for the wallabies, because Wales put them under a lot of pressure at scrum time last summer.

So I think Gatland needs to have the finest NH scrumagers in his pack. Front row players who have very good technique and have the confidence and ability to not go early or drop on their knees, bind incorrectly etc. But who are competent in the loose as well, capable of passing properly and making an impact.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You're not playing on NH grounds in winter. You're playing generally in hard grounds in Australia. So a heavy pack is not going to trot around a cut up field. They will need to be mobile. If you think the Lions can blow the Aussie pack off the ground think about their record against SA and you see that they know how to contain physically and technically superior packs.

By all means pick a scrum that can dominate and some tall timber to win your lineouts. Having a set piece edge will only help the Lions but only if you realise that this will not be a clear advantage and that what you do with your possession is the key.

For me the back row is the key. I would have players like Tipuric who can not only get ball on defence but, more importantly, can link up play with their backline. Too often I have seen Lions teams try to bash up the centre with the pick and go. The Australian defence is usually solid. What the Lions must try to do is take the ball further away from the initial contact area. Using offloads in the tackles, linking up with players to get away from the fringes and over the advantage line is what the Lions must do. Talk of grinding them down is not giving them enough credit. You have to test the line more and make them work hard on defence. Tipuric has to be in the backrow for me and I think Gatland will look at that last games with his partnership with Warburton and think those two will start with Faletau. That may anger some and I don't believe individually they are necessarily the best but as a unit they have proven that they can combine well and link up with the rest of their players out wide. Gatland may start or bring on another combination but I have a feeling he will go for the Wales back three principally for the reasons of their linking play. And if that's the case, expect Phillips at halfback as well. Like I said, many of you might not like that...

oh dear, perhaps we should sack Gats, he took a side that loved doing just that and re chipped them to bash it up in the 12 channel hoping for quick ball to go wide....Aussies know this - obviously - and just swallow it up slow it down. I agree that the Lions cannot rely on a set piece but they need to dominate it anyway as no team is more deadly from 1st phase than Aus. I think, hope, Gatland will see sense and pick Tipuric as a Martyn Williams esque 7 with Warbs/Lydiate or Robshaw at 6. I also think the lions defence has to be absolutely rock solid and just wish Edwards was touring. On the counter an din broken play Aus always look so good on the ball. I am still confident the lions will win 2-1 but if they lose their composure then Aus will blow them away.

Biltong wrote:Staf, from the sounds of it the Aussies are making waves for George Smith to be called up, there are some issues though, his Japanese Club Santori will have to OK it.

If he is selected you will have to counter that with a natural 7.

George is a fantastic player and it is an interesting point as to how the Lions play him. In 2001 Hill (until he was targeted and disgracefully taken out) took George to the cleaners. Although Hill was a very good seven he was IMO an even better 6. We do not have a player of Hills class available but while the natural instinct is to fight fire with fire just maybe the 6.5 is the best option here.

Smith is experienced, fresh, and hungry, he could be a real problem. Pocock is an impressive player. Is he as good as a Smith playing at near his peak?, personally I don't think so. George is a very clever footballer. I would rather Pocock was fit

I think Wales have the perfect backrow to play Australia with Warburton and Tipuric on the flanks and Toby at eight.

My biggest concern is more the conservatism of the inside backs choices.

I want the Lions to have a footballer at 12. I see that Roberts is most likely going to have the 12 jumper but.....

Long shots but I wonder if there might be spots for any of....

Billy Twelvetrees
Marshall the Irish chap
Henson (probably not)
James Hook

...at least as a plan b

Scott

A combination of the two is easily selected. A meaty powerful front five, a ball carrier at 8 and two quick flanks. We have the players

Agreed.We have no worries up front.Behind the scrum is a different matter as midfield play in the NH is 95% bish bash bosh.Oh for a Guscott,Bateman,Greenwood or BoD at their best!

Does it matter that all of these players are welsh?

Probably not. We need victory.

I would have Sean O'Brien at 6 though. He is just an animal.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You're not playing on NH grounds in winter. You're playing generally in hard grounds in Australia. So a heavy pack is not going to trot around a cut up field. They will need to be mobile. If you think the Lions can blow the Aussie pack off the ground think about their record against SA and you see that they know how to contain physically and technically superior packs.

By all means pick a scrum that can dominate and some tall timber to win your lineouts. Having a set piece edge will only help the Lions but only if you realise that this will not be a clear advantage and that what you do with your possession is the key.

For me the back row is the key. I would have players like Tipuric who can not only get ball on defence but, more importantly, can link up play with their backline. Too often I have seen Lions teams try to bash up the centre with the pick and go. The Australian defence is usually solid. What the Lions must try to do is take the ball further away from the initial contact area. Using offloads in the tackles, linking up with players to get away from the fringes and over the advantage line is what the Lions must do. Talk of grinding them down is not giving them enough credit. You have to test the line more and make them work hard on defence. Tipuric has to be in the backrow for me and I think Gatland will look at that last games with his partnership with Warburton and think those two will start with Faletau. That may anger some and I don't believe individually they are necessarily the best but as a unit they have proven that they can combine well and link up with the rest of their players out wide. Gatland may start or bring on another combination but I have a feeling he will go for the Wales back three principally for the reasons of their linking play. And if that's the case, expect Phillips at halfback as well. Like I said, many of you might not like that...

I agree completely with your views on how we must play against Australia but disagree personally with the back-row you'd select kia.

For me two player who must start at the moment are Tipuric and SOB. They have both been playing great this season and would offer a huge work rate in attack and defence. The important part of SOB's game for the Lions in my eyes is his carrying, he would allow us to play a creative centre partnership as himself and the heavy weight wings could play the crash ball role when needed. The potency we could get with the likes of SOB, North and Bowe running of the shoulders of a Davies/BOD centre partnership would be brilliant to see.

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Jones 4.Hines 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Tipuric 8.Heaslip/Faletau
16.Hibbard 17.Sheridan 18.Cole 19.Wyn Jones 20.Robshaw

That would be my pack of choice at the moment. With the back-row I've selected we need two second rows who are strong in the line-out hence POC and Hines.

In terms of the heavy vs light argument I think it's far more a case of balance being needed than one or the other. That said I do like to see differing options in the squad, I see little point of picking 20 forwards in a squad if the players in each position offer much the same option - i.e. Lydiate, Brown, Wood at blindside are all exceptional in defence and their ground work but offer little in attack. Hence why I'd like to see one or two of those travel with O'Brien and maybe even Croft offering different options on the blindside.

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. Wood
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip

I personally don't think it's a case of light vs heavy. The Lions will have plenty options to choose both heavy and mobile players, and that's the key for me.

The following pack would hardly constitute a "light pack", but at the same time there's plenty mobility (and impact from the bench):

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.Wyn Jones 6.Wood 7.Tipuric 8.Faletau

16.Cole 17.Hibbard 18.Jenkins 19.Gray 20.SOB

Your dirt track pack could be:

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Murray 4.Ryan 5.POC 6.Robshaw 7.Warburton 8.Beattie

I should also add that I think POM at Munster is forming a very strong case to be a Lions bolter. Very solid for Ireland this year, and frankly epic at the weekend. I've been really impressed.

Agreed POM has been playing exceptionally well. If Ireland could get everyone fit they've got a great pack at their disposal!

When will Richie Gray be returning? I was under the impression that he was out for the season.

Expected to return shortly I believe, in time for the last couple of games I think.

If he's not fit, I expect Geoff Parling to be in the frame.

Geoff parling is a head of gray and seeing the performance of O'Connell at the weekend knocks gray back behind AWJ, Evans, O'Connell, parling and maybe launchberry this isn't me putting him down I just think these players add more than gray.


POM but a big hand up for that 6 Poopie the guy was a machine

Ah right I thought he was out for the season due to injury. Would be good to see Gray prove himself but without HC games there isn't much left for him to do so in.

2 from POC, Evans and Parling
3 from Wyn Jones, Hines, Ryan, Launchberry and Gray if fit

The mix of those players would offer balance to the lock options in the squad.

King Carlos there's nothing wrong with your backrow. Sob is a great player. I don't think my backrow is the one I'd like to see but think its the one garland will pick for the reasons I stated.

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Cole
4 Evans
5 O'Connell
6 Wood
7 Tipuric
8 Beattie

Healy
Hibbard
Jones
O'Connell
AWJ
SOB
Tipric/warburton
Faletau

IF we are talking now.......

Jenkins
Owen
Jones

POC
Launchberry

SOB
Warburton/Tips
Beattie

Come 2 months and what 8 games time then I would choose the best available,

Healy - 6" 1' 17st 11lb - Best scrummager, and not too shabby in the loose or breakdown
Owen - 6" 1' 17st 4lb - Solidifies the scrum, learnt well under Rees, and is a country mile the best Hooker with ball in hand
Jones - 6" 0' 18st 11lb - Say no more

POC - 6" 6' 18st 1lb - Superb lineout, controlled aggression (does he ever lose out in the maul/ruck? I cannae recall him doing so!) and a born leader
Gray - 6"10' 20st 4lb - The best lineout specialist in the NH, and now added grunt to supplement POCs first hits

Lydiate - 6" 4' 17st 11lb - When he hits a player they stay it
Rennie - 6" 1' 15st 8lb - on form the best 7 in the NH and the only openside that "Out-Pococked" Pocock. Warburton, Tips, Robshaw all can do a very good job as well
R Jones - 6" 5' 18st 1lb - Jones experience, aggressive tackling and all round awareness of the back row edges it from Beattie but its a very close call

That's a heavy close on average of 18st.....but very aggressive and mobile pack