Poor Wilder

When promoters build up a fighter they sometimes pull the wool over our eyes, because of this, we are "once bitten twice shy".

If Joe Public get's a sniff of an idea that he's 'clicked on' then rumours of a hype job begin...

If a fighter's brought on too slow - he's a hype job.

If he blows over bums - he's a hype job.

If he gets too much attention, too quick - hes be a hype job.

Fans seem to think every prospect from a foreign shore (or a boxer with with a perceived character flaw) is a hype job (which says more about the nature of people than anything else).

I think we as boxing fans are too quick to dismiss fighters as hype jobs. Partly because we've been 'took in' in the past (and are wary of feeling stupidly gullible...again), and partly because we want the accolade of knowing something others didn't know......the good old "I told you so".

Sometimes we are simply too harsh, full stop. I mean, seriously, how can we call Lucien Bute a hype job? He got well beaten by the 2nd or 3rd best in his weight division while defending his world title. If we are objective in our assessments, then any athlete who attains a top 5 position in any sport is a little better than just a 'hype job', surely?

When it comes to Wilder we are yet to know if he'll 'come good', its too soon to tell (David Price, anyone?)

Anyway, besides the farfetched articles on 'less than credible' websites by ridiculous 'journalists' the only other hyperbole about Wilder is the overemphasis of his talent by his promoters and associated TV channel (whatever it is). However, this is no different to what we see, about our fighters, on Sky, BoxNation, and previously, Channel 5.

Poor Wilder, he seems to be a bit of a joke over here right now. The hype about him being hype has reached incredulous levels. Actually, all talk of the 'hype train' has now outstripped any actual ability he may have. Which is a shame, ok, he isn't the most cultured of fighters, he pulls back with his guard down, his chin isn't tested and he's fought nobodies. BUT, he's big, athletic, immensely powerful and American (which can only be good for the sport).

Agree with this. I hate it when a new prospect gets mentioned and everyone jumps on the 'hype job' bandwagon and tries to make you feel stupid for getting excited about the possibility of a promising new fighter on the scene. You should be allowed to get excited/interested about potential new contenders rather than cynically downgrading them straight of the bat. People love to say 'I told you so' when someone promising loses, but, think about it, most boxers are going to lose a few in their career - even the top guys. To me, this is just indicative of the '0' culture that still pervades boxing. Even as fans we often write off fighters when they slip up. This often results in careful protection of boxers so that they remain unbeaten and fans don't get to scream 'hype job'. I think the attitude they have to losing (and matchmaking for that matter) in MMA is much, much more healthy. I don't really think all that much of Wilder (largely due to his lack of progression with opponents) but we should be allowed to enjoy watching prospects without the constant cynicism.

Wilder will continue to be a "hype job" until he steps up and faces someone decent. Until such time, the praise he is receiving seems way out of proportion with what he's actually achieved.

The hype surrounding young Mike Tyson was justified as he exploded onto the HW scene and annihilated everything in his path. The hype surrounding Amir Khan was justified as he'd won and Olympic silver medal against one of the finest amateur fighters of recent times and aquitted himself very well at such a young age. The hype surrounding Audley was unjustified as he'd be show to be lazy, a bit of a whiner (complaining of robbery in the World Championships) and he was actually losing his Olympic semi-final by some degree when he caught his opponent with a shot right on the point of the chin and the ref stopped the fight. I think the hype surrounding Kell Brook is unjustified as, whilst he's very good, there's no indication he's this future p4p great some seem to be making him out to be.

Wilder is being talked of as the second coming (certainly by a few people on here - they were doing the same with Seth Mitchell until Banks burst that particular bubble) and yet there's nothing as yet on his record to suggest he's going to set the world alight. If he was going to do it, he'd have done it before now.

So, in that context...he's a massive hype job.

27 fights and he hasn't even fought past club level yet, he deserves every bit of stick he gets. His agenda is so transparent.

TopHat24/7 wrote:27 fights and he hasn't even fought past club level yet, he deserves every bit of stick he gets. His agenda is so transparent.

What's his agenda?

Wait for any remotely decent challenge to fall by the wayside then 'swoop in' to paper champ superiority!

Isnt that every HW boxer's agenda right now though?

Boxing fans are fickle and its impossible to please to everyone in it. But at the same time, I don’t think its too much to ask a prospect like Wilder who is actually being touted as a potential future world champion to actually step it up a level or three in terms of opposition. The problem is for the fans is that they can only really form an assessment of a boxer based on his competition. I wouldn’t feel comfortable making big predictions based on the competition Wilder has been facing.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Isnt that every HW boxer's agenda right now though?

There's bearing it in mind and there's accruing a 27-0 (27) record against clubhouse bum fighters whilst proclaiming greatness. Very different stories.

Fury gets stick but a quarter of his 20 fights are against better opponenents than anything on Wilder's ledger despite fighting a quarter less opponents and, if he's to be believed, within the next 2-3 fights he'll be challenging for a strap. 27 fights in Wilder is still domestic level.

Boxtthis wrote:Agree with this. I hate it when a new prospect gets mentioned and everyone jumps on the 'hype job' bandwagon and tries to make you feel stupid for getting excited about the possibility of a promising new fighter on the scene. You should be allowed to get excited/interested about potential new contenders rather than cynically downgrading them straight of the bat. People love to say 'I told you so' when someone promising loses, but, think about it, most boxers are going to lose a few in their career - even the top guys. To me, this is just indicative of the '0' culture that still pervades boxing. Even as fans we often write off fighters when they slip up. This often results in careful protection of boxers so that they remain unbeaten and fans don't get to scream 'hype job'. I think the attitude they have to losing (and matchmaking for that matter) in MMA is much, much more healthy. I don't really think all that much of Wilder (largely due to his lack of progression with opponents) but we should be allowed to enjoy watching prospects without the constant cynicism.

How can you defend a guy whos had nearly 30 fights and is either about to fight Audley Harrison or MARTIN ROGAN!!!!!

Yes thats right, Martin Rogan has been approached for a fight against Wilder. I wish there was no swear filter on this site so I could express how that makes me feel.

You have to remember that Wilder only had 30 amateur fights before winning Bronze.

He isnt a ring veteran like others with less pro fights.

As long as he steps up in his next two fights, I say give him a bit of leaway.

Look Adam, its understandable that you are going to defend him as you had a cosy chat on the podcast, but I would argue a case that Eubank Jr has been in with more difficult opponents and he had about 2 amature fights.

Audley Harrison or Martin Rogan are disgraceful opponents for any heavyweight fighter let alone one that has 27 pro fights under his belt.

Price got abuse for fighting Harrison in his 13th fight or something.

The point is Wilder hasn't been given advanced levels of tougher opponents, after his 15th or even 20th fight you would expect him to test himself, but its just fat loser after fat loser and its embarrasing to the point where nobody even really cares about him in his own country because its that obvious.

Im sure a fight with a top 15 heavyweight could have been made, I refuse to believe that Audley Harrison and Martin Rogan are the toughest fights out there for him at this point.

Yes, Wilder should be fighting better people by now. And, he isn't one I consider a great prospect. But some of the comments on this thread alone highlight some issues:

* "Wilder is being touted as the second coming". No he isn't. Most fans recognise his weak opposition and technical flaws. But at the same time, it's natural to look at any big, athletic HW who is winning these days (such is the desperation for a new challenger at HW). But, statements like this falsely inflate the positive things that are being said and encourage fans to be really cynical. He's being set up for a fall. When he loses (as I expect him to do if he faces someone top 5 - in fact, as most boxers do - that's why they are top 5!) then it'll be 'I told you so' or 'everyone thought he was great and you're all fools for even showing an interest'. Soon, it becomes a crime to say anything positive about anyone.

* "His agenda is to protect himself and steal a belt". To me this is again indicative of the 'scared to lose' culture. We all think over protection is a bad thing and we all slag boxers off for doing it. But when they lose out come the statements like 'hype job', 'exposed', etc. There's definite hypocrisy there in my eyes. Which is it? Protect your record or take risks? For me there should be more risks taken. But fans can hardly complain to much about protection if we basically write off every guy that loses.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:How can you defend a guy whos had nearly 30 fights and is either about to fight Audley Harrison or MARTIN ROGAN!!!!

I don't think this is a defence....

"All talk of the 'hype train' has now outstripped any actual ability he may have. Which is a shame, ok, he isn't the most cultured of fighters, he pulls back with his guard down, his chin isn't tested and he's fought nobodies. BUT, he's big, athletic, immensely powerful and American (which can only be good for the sport)"

As an amateur, on more than one occasion, Price fought boxers of comparative level to Audley Harrison (with inconsistent results). He has boxed since a boy and at 19 was the youngest senior A.B.A Super-Hevayweight Champion.

Wilder on the other hand didn't start boxing until he was 22. He's an unproven novice who's devoid of experience but relies on athleticism and power for wins (Olympic Bronze after 20ish fights isn't bad!).

Wilder's time in the sport is miniscule - he's learning in the Pro's what most learn in the amateurs.

I don't mind if he fights another 20 bums. He needs to take it slow. People don't need to listen to the hype, it happens. The lad is learning.

Those that create hype have vested interests.... or know nothing of the game (gillfoid).

No one with anything about them is saying he's the next Mike Tyson, instead they're saying; he's a good prospect, unproven and still learning.

If his chin stands up then he'll win a version of title. Lets just hope he comes good. He could be good for the sport.

I'm not saying hes a hype job.

I'm just stating that any fighter with 27 pro contests against fighters who any normal prospect would fight within their first 5 fights is suffering from terrible matchmaking.

How is fighting 20 more bums going to teach him anything. If anything his team should have known after the first 10 fights that Wilder was beyond journeyman level. So 27 fights in, are we seriously expected to believe that Harrison, Rogan, or anyone of that standard is going to tell us something about Wilder that we are yet to know.

If anything it will hurt Wilder becaus ethe longer he goes on blowing these fat tomato cans out in a round or two the more he will come unstuck when he EVENTUALLY does step up to the likes of Arreola, Chambers, Fury etc. These guys will mosty be there for 12 rounds.

TBH, I just don't think GoldenBoy have a clue how to market a potential "Next American Heavyweight"

I don't know much about boxing but these days I don't know any famous prospects who haven't got a good amateur background, or at least experience of boxing gyms from a young age.

When these prospects go pro, their careers should move faster than the lad who didn't have his first amateur bout until he was 22.

I agree a test should happen sooner rather than later, but that's down to my own impatience and curiosity. He might not be learning much about boxing but he's learning about the mechanisms of sport, and money.

He needs 5 fights against the Rogans and Audley's. Then 3 or 4 fights against the Arreolas and "mid-30's Rahmans" of this world. 10 fights in the next 32 months then he'll be ready for a world title shot (or not) at the tender age of 30.

Their problem is that they've only got one reborn. With 5-6 they could reignite the heavies but with one who would probably get flattened by wlad within four rounds, its really not worth the investment required.

TheMackemMawler wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:How can you defend a guy whos had nearly 30 fights and is either about to fight Audley Harrison or MARTIN ROGAN!!!!

I don't think this is a defence....

"All talk of the 'hype train' has now outstripped any actual ability he may have. Which is a shame, ok, he isn't the most cultured of fighters, he pulls back with his guard down, his chin isn't tested and he's fought nobodies. BUT, he's big, athletic, immensely powerful and American (which can only be good for the sport)"

As an amateur, on more than one occasion, Price fought boxers of comparative level to Audley Harrison (with inconsistent results). He has boxed since a boy and at 19 was the youngest senior A.B.A Super-Hevayweight Champion.

Wilder on the other hand didn't start boxing until he was 22. He's an unproven novice who's devoid of experience but relies on athleticism and power for wins (Olympic Bronze after 20ish fights isn't bad!).

Wilder's time in the sport is miniscule - he's learning in the Pro's what most learn in the amateurs.

I don't mind if he fights another 20 bums. He needs to take it slow. People don't need to listen to the hype, it happens. The lad is learning.

Those that create hype have vested interests.... or know nothing of the game (gillfoid).

No one with anything about them is saying he's the next Mike Tyson, instead they're saying; he's a good prospect, unproven and still learning.

If his chin stands up then he'll win a version of title. Lets just hope he comes good. He could be good for the sport.

That says more about the people hyping him that his actual ability. Wilder is another Michael Grant...without the fast-tracking to the HW title.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Isnt that every HW boxer's agenda right now though?

There's bearing it in mind and there's accruing a 27-0 (27) record against clubhouse bum fighters whilst proclaiming greatness. Very different stories.

Fury gets stick but a quarter of his 20 fights are against better opponenents than anything on Wilder's ledger despite fighting a quarter less opponents and, if he's to be believed, within the next 2-3 fights he'll be challenging for a strap. 27 fights in Wilder is still domestic level.

Wilder knows though, he knows what he's fought, naturally he's going to big himself up and say he's going to bwe the future HW world champion, but mind you so is TT and I don't see that one happening...

With a Wilder-Harrison fight looking to be on the cards, I had a look at a few of his fights.

What's the fuss about? If the Audley from Prizefighter turns up then Wilder is on his way to a first loss IMO.

People will make their own brackets, but i'd make a distinction between a hype-job and being over-hyped.

I take a hype-job to be one of two things:
1. someone of limited ability being built up into something they're not.
2. someone as yet unproven, but getting a lot of attention

There's a blurring between the two, and you make your own mind up from watching them, i guess some will see wilder as 1 and some as 2. If you see him in category 2, it doesnt mean the substance/potential isnt necessary there.

Over-hyped.... guys who may be very good, but perhaps get hyped to a perceived level above that... or just get more attention than equal or better contemporaries. I'd put bute, in that category, he clearly was a good fighter, but i didn't see anything to put him on the pedestal he was on prior to froch.

I always had hatton in that category too.

It's all very well to get frustrated by people labelling someone a hype job, but it's usually in response to someone being hyped! If posters/journo's/self publicists etc weren't prone to hyperbole when describing the next big thing, then others wouldnt be tempted to cut them down... as long as you have hype you will have cynicism.

I think its wishful thinkig there shadow, judging by how price knocked out audley one shot from wilder and his out in my opinion wether audley is on his A game or not.

On wether he is a hype job or not, i think it is fair to say that the amount of fights his he should hav had enough experience to step up by now, but i dont think its enough to call him a hype job his got that power there that would put anybody away 100% knock out rate regardless of his opposition is a good record.

DAVE667 wrote: That says more about the people hyping him that his actual ability. Wilder is another Michael Grant...without the fast-tracking to the HW title

.

That's very possible, even probable, but lets hope not. It's not all doom and gloom for Wilder.... even a young Michael Grant might have done 'ok' against some of the future contenders. I think it's too early to discount him from being a champion in a poor post K2 era.

Makaveli wrote:I think its wishful thinkig there shadow, judging by how price knocked out audley one shot from wilder and his out in my opinion wether audley is on his A game or not.

On wether he is a hype job or not, i think it is fair to say that the amount of fights his he should hav had enough experience to step up by now, but i dont think its enough to call him a hype job his got that power there that would put anybody away 100% knock out rate regardless of his opposition is a good record.

Of course there's the permanent sense of fragility surrounding Harrison that will never leave the equation.

However, I saw Wilder in a horrible fight against something that looked like the lovechild of Butterbean and a yeti, and thought that, assuming this goes ahead, Audley has far less to worry about than Wilder does.



If this guy can have Wilder on the floor, god help him when that counter left lands...

Great post Milky.

1 and 2 apply to Wilder.

1 He's obviously limited and being built up to be something he's not.

2. Having limited ability it remains to be seen whether he'll be able to land a power shot on a world level operator (and what effect it will have) or how his chin (and heart) stand against good fighter's.

Surely there's a reason why he's learning fighting Cruiserweights and not Heavyweights? The obvious conclusion is he's chinny.

Audley will wipe the floor with him, everyone will avoid Audley after his incredible showing at Prizefighter.

and the Audley hype begins....

I think that was more due to him being of balance than anything else, but i do see your point, and whilst im not counting out audleys counter left, i just feel once he gets a feel of Wilders power he will freeze.

TheMackemMawler wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:How can you defend a guy whos had nearly 30 fights and is either about to fight Audley Harrison or MARTIN ROGAN!!!!

As an amateur, on more than one occasion, Price fought boxers of comparative level to Audley Harrison (with inconsistent results). He has boxed since a boy and at 19 was the youngest senior A.B.A Super-Hevayweight Champion.

Wilder on the other hand didn't start boxing until he was 22. He's an unproven novice who's devoid of experience but relies on athleticism and power for wins (Olympic Bronze after 20ish fights isn't bad!).

Same could be said for Seth Mitchell who has challenged himself infinitely harder than Wilder.

Not sure if you're replying me to me Mak?

You don't touch gloves after you've knocked an opponent down. That was a slip and rightly ruled so.

However, I can't think of any other reason, other than he's chinny, why he'd almost exclusively fight fat LHs and CWs.

Makaveli wrote:I think that was more due to him being of balance than anything else, but i do see your point, and whilst im not counting out audleys counter left, i just feel once he gets a feel of Wilders power he will freeze.

From the little I've got round to seeing since the fight was agreed (but not signed?) Wilder has the look of a very limited fighter who has had real KO power at the level he's been operating at.

The knockdown by Nichols was IMO a 6 vs 2 x 3 situation, partially off-balance but also genuinely hurt by the shot.

Harrison remains a massive step up from his competition to date, which says something about that level of competition.

Totally take your point about Wilder's one-shot power, which may or may not be for real and carry up to a higher level. What also needs to be factored into this fight is that Wilder is going to get hit harder than he has ever been at some point, and his reaction to that is by definition an unknown.

Both men have the strengths and weaknesses to either win or lose this early, and I don't think it will last long. In the probability stakes I lean towards an Audley win, while seeing the historical evidence that might form an opposing view.

TopHat24/7 wrote: Same could be said for Seth Mitchell who has challenged himself infinitely harder than Wilder.

Thats true, perhaps Wilder really is chinny and that's why his team ensure he avoids any kind of test at all costs.At least Price had the boxing ability to be beat domestic level fighters before HIS chin was exposed.

My view on this fight with Audley is that we know how Audley reacts when getting punched but we dont know about Wilder yet.

Audley has nothing left that we dont know. No one knows how far Deontay can go at the moment. Not saying he is going to win but if Audley was favorite, I might just dig out my paddy power account and go for the under dog big time

I agree with Adam, we know all that is to know about Audley, he doesn't react well in big fights, he's a nice guy but not a fighter. He's OK beating the likes of Rossi, Rogan and Bertino on the way to a 'Prizefighter Title' but put him in a big fight and he's like a rabbit in the headlights.

I doubt Wilder will freeze, you need to know what your letting yourself in for to freeze. Wilder having not being tested doesn't know what it's going to be like so has less to fear. But, we don't know how he's going to react when he's hit. If he's chinny I'd guess he's going to get knocked out not while being cautious, but the opposite.

TheMackemMawler wrote:I agree with Adam, we know all that is to know about Audley, he doesn't react well in big fights, he's a nice guy but not a fighter. He's OK beating the likes of Rossi, Rogan and Bertino on the way to a 'Prizefighter Title' but put him in a big fight and he's like a rabbit in the headlights.

I doubt Wilder will freeze, you need to know what your letting yourself in for to freeze. Wilder having not being tested doesn't know what it's going to be like so has less to fear. But, we don't know how he's going to react when he's hit. If he's chinny I'd guess he's going to get knocked out not while being cautious, but the opposite.

There are so many variables here it's very difficult to call the result - I'm really looking forward to it though!!

TheMackemMawler wrote:and the Audley hype begins....

Was a slight joke, by the by.

Adam D wrote:My view on this fight with Audley is that we know how Audley reacts when getting punched but we dont know about Wilder yet.

Audley has nothing left that we dont know. No one knows how far Deontay can go at the moment. Not saying he is going to win but if Audley was favorite, I might just dig out my paddy power account and go for the under dog big time

You are going to back Audley!?

You are spending too much time with Union by the sounds of things Adam.

I realise that is poorly worded!

If audley is favorite, I back the non favorite - ie Wilder!

Me too CaS.

If Audley beats him, then he was nothing but hype.

If Wilder wins he's beat Audley Harrison.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:and the Audley hype begins....

Was a slight joke, by the by.

I know Alex. I was implying a sarcastic 'off the cuff' remark is enough to give The Hype Train momentum.

Don't think Audley is as crap as we make out. Yes, he's crap, but the ease that he beat off the guys in Prizefighter tells you he is actually no mug, just seems to, er, not get the best out of hismelf at times.

Wilder had a short but promising amateur career and beat some decent opponents.
His progress, as a professional, has been lacking interms of quality though a couple of opponents have been ok for a developing prospect (Sconiers, Price). The majority have been dismal.

The fight with Audley Harrison is a good move. I agree the hype placed on Wilder is ridiculous, though his handlers have been guilty of feeding him 'cannon-fodder'.

Yeah, to be fair to Wilder, his last fight I believe against Kelvin Price on the Khan undercard was actualy a decent step up, and the type of opposition he should be facing, or perhaps just a little level above that.

I actually think Harrison has a chance of beating Wilder, but ONLY if his corner tell him it's a Prizefighter-style 3 round fight. It'll be that left hand again!!