Why does the rugby world rely on New Zealand to fill their teams?

Australia have Digby, Quade and Mike Harris.
England have Thomas Waldrom and in recent years regularly used Shontayne and Flutey
at the last RWC it was revealed that half the Samoan squad were New Zealanders
Japan constantly have a steady stream of New Zealanders in their team

And then there's the coaching. Dingo in Aus. Warren with Wales in the Lions. Before him both Sir Ted and Shag coached Wales. Warren has spent time with Ireland too. Sir JK coached Italy and Japan. Canada have Kieran Crowley. And at assistant levels there are lots of Kiwis like Greg Feek with the Irish.


It's beyond a joke. The rest of the world looks at the All Blacks, see a few PI looking players and say that New Zealand is raping the Pacific Islands, yet the majority of those players are actually New Zealanders with PI heritage. And at the same time as they say it, their team and coaching staff is flooded with New Zealanders.

And it's just not at the elite level. Japan, France, UK, Australia. They all rely on top New Zealand talent to fill their professional teams


Thoughts?

Boy you're sure going for it Dallym...my question is why don't the Boks have any...?

Taylorman wrote:Boy you're sure going for it Dallym...my question is why don't the Boks have any...?

Boks - the only team good enough to be our rival. guess they don't need any New Zealanders to keep up with us

Don't you mean Samoans that play for New Zealand ala;

John Afoa, Jerry Collins, Christian Cullen, Jerome Kaino, Kevin Mealaum, Mils Muliaina, Ma'a Nonu, Julien Savea and Sonny Bill Williams - to name just a few

Fluxy wrote:Don't you mean Samoans that play for New Zealand ala;

John Afoa, Jerry Collins, Christian Cullen, Jerome Kaino, Kevin Mealaum, Mils Muliaina, Ma'a Nonu, Julien Savea and Sonny Bill Williams - to name just a few

Afoa, Cullen, Mealamu, Nonu, Savea and SBW were all born in New Zealand. Kaino moved to New Zealand when he was four and Collins arrived as a toddler. I don't know when Mils arrived but his All Blacks profile says he was raised in Invercargill. Of the foreign born you mentioned, two came very young and had all their rugby development/education here and the other we're not sure about.

You've just listed bonafide New Zealanders! nice try though

I think it is fair to say that the Samoan link with New Zealand is unique and for a number of reasons doesn't make part of this debate.

Thousands of Samoans immigrate to New Zealand and because of their heritage and traditions will play for Samoa purely because

1 New Zealand has enough players to represent them.
2 that is where Samoan players play professional rugby and elect to play for their nation of heritage.
3 it just makes sense that a guy who comes from a land that has such close ties with another would naturally want to play international rugby and want to represent Samoa.
4 a huge content of Samoan poeple move to NZ to better their lives.

In my view it is similar to the UK, one parent born in Wales, another born in England, they go work in Scotland, and you can play for anyone of three countries.

To give these New Zealand players a chance to escape a poxy little island in the Pacific Ocean.

Pretty commendable really.

That's a nasty case of hubris you've got there dallym. The humour isn't lost on me that your moniker is an Australian great who represented NZ.

dallym wrote:

Fluxy wrote:Don't you mean Samoans that play for New Zealand ala;

John Afoa, Jerry Collins, Christian Cullen, Jerome Kaino, Kevin Mealaum, Mils Muliaina, Ma'a Nonu, Julien Savea and Sonny Bill Williams - to name just a few

Afoa, Cullen, Mealamu, Nonu, Savea and SBW were all born in New Zealand. Kaino moved to New Zealand when he was four and Collins arrived as a toddler. I don't know when Mils arrived but his All Blacks profile says he was raised in Invercargill. Of the foreign born you mentioned, two came very young and had all their rugby development/education here and the other we're not sure about.

You've just listed bonafide New Zealanders! nice try though

Going back to your original point mate, they technically could've all played for Samoa. Look up Samoan New Zealanders on wiki. (Yes I know it's wiki, not the most accurate etc.)

They could've all played for Samoa. SBW for example has a Samoan father just opts to play for NZ. It's th case all over the world, much like North and Cuthbett have an English parent.

Most of these lads have grown up through the system or have had the right to choose. It's the boys like Waldrom or Hape that I would have a problem with.

Pay them more and they might stay. If you're gonna be tight, it's gonna test the 'patriotic-ness' of your population.

Full Credit wrote:That's a nasty case of hubris you've got there dallym. The humour isn't lost on me that your moniker is an Australian great who represented NZ.

Brickwall.....hit...

Griff wrote:Pay them more and they might stay. If you're gonna be tight, it's gonna test the 'patriotic-ness' of your population.

That is an issue that maybe needs addressing. Obviously players of origins from countries like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga are some of the finest most naturally gifted rugby players around and the earning potential to play for any of the home or Tri nations is massively better than the earnings playing for the nation of their heritage.

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:Pay them more and they might stay. If you're gonna be tight, it's gonna test the 'patriotic-ness' of your population.

That is an issue that maybe needs addressing. Obviously players of origins from countries like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga are some of the finest most naturally gifted rugby players around and the earning potential to play for any of the home or Tri nations is massively better than the earnings playing for the nation of their heritage.

I meant the New Zealanders that the OP was complaining were being take away. Coaches, players, conditioning staff - if they were paid enough in NZ then they'd stay I'm sure.

Griff wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:Pay them more and they might stay. If you're gonna be tight, it's gonna test the 'patriotic-ness' of your population.

That is an issue that maybe needs addressing. Obviously players of origins from countries like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga are some of the finest most naturally gifted rugby players around and the earning potential to play for any of the home or Tri nations is massively better than the earnings playing for the nation of their heritage.

I meant the New Zealanders that the OP was complaining were being take away. Coaches, players, conditioning staff - if they were paid enough in NZ then they'd stay I'm sure.

It's pretty much the same deal though isn't it, like in Wales, oh just pay them more.

If you pay them more the offers to leave get bigger, these days if you produce rugby Talent then a chequebook with the name of a French English or Japanese bank on it will appear soon after.

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:Pay them more and they might stay. If you're gonna be tight, it's gonna test the 'patriotic-ness' of your population.

That is an issue that maybe needs addressing. Obviously players of origins from countries like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga are some of the finest most naturally gifted rugby players around and the earning potential to play for any of the home or Tri nations is massively better than the earnings playing for the nation of their heritage.

But you are in danger of moving into the whole immigration and social engineering debate. The vast majority of "PI" players who have appeared for NZ (and in smaller numbers Aus) were either born or certainly raised in the country they chose to play for. Their parents moved for a better life etc. Now that is an issue far, far bigger than rugby.

The real issue for Rugby specifically, is adults shifting allegiency. To tighten up on this, and most agree it could do with tightening up, we should get rid of the grandparent rule and extend the residency time for qualification - to at least 5 years. Players will still move clubs for an improved job offer (same as we can) and sometimes that will involve changing countries subject to visa requirements etc, it would be very wrong to deny the same freedom to a rugby player that we have after all.

You seem to have been possessed by Grey Ghost recently dally!

Good luck fielding all the criticisms. It is interesting seeing some of the backlash comments. Seems Stephen Jones has 'informed' their rugby knowledge of what's happening in the southern part of the world.

Personally I am more concerned about the Japanese clubs who seem to be taking top talent away like Kaino, Kahui, SBW away. I can live with the Waldroms and Fluteys of this world playing offshore and losing the odd gem like Nick Evans to the clubs but when top players start leaving in their rugby prime, then it's of concern.

It's not a case of paying them enough. The money offered overseas is simply way beyond what we can afford. The policy of only selecting players who remain in NZ is the only way of retaining talent. Not much sympathy though from the rest of the world.

kia,

Families moved to NZ and Aus for a better life than they could achieve. Some then choose to move again surely that is just the way of things?

London the only thing better is their bank balance. We're talking about a rugby career here and many are afraid of what's beyond that rugby career. That's what's motivating them.

There's only so many places available for aspiring talent and money isn't the answer. You can't expect talent to stay put if it can't get a game whether you pay them or not. The only times it hurts is when a player is/would have been good enough if they had stayed and that's a gamble some players aren't prepared to take. Japan tends to be a pre-retirement plan as are a number of European countries with some notable exceptions but the truth still is that there aren't the enough opportunities to fit them all in. They have maybe 10 to 14 years to make their money and can't hang around. Still, it does provide a regular moaning topic for forumites.

Why does the rugby world rely on New Zealand to fill their teams?

It is simple really, New Zealand have been the best team in world for a very long time now. Even though they have only won 2 Rugby World Cups, they still remain the title of world best team.

So if you have played for the New Zealand team (ALL BLACKS) Then just about every team in the world (WANTS) you in their team.

Remember Fiji, Samoa, Tonga etc are very small poor countries. When the population of these Islands moved there was only NZ as good old Australia had a very nasty policy in place.

It's not only PI's moving to NZ, it is Kiwis moving to Australia in their 10's of thousands each year too.

I for one wish the Welsh clubs would stop buying NZ and other countries has beens, we have enough raw talent.

well there are a large number of kiwi hertaged players around the world, but then there are a large number of PI heritaged players in NZ too, it really is a case of friends who care...

But I suspect the answers your looking for are...

- Because kiwi's are the cheap street walkers of rugby willing to leave home for a few shiny penny's!

or

- The kiwi system is full to the brim with more talented PI players the actual kiwis have to source employment elsewhere.

That help?

Fluxy wrote:
Most of these lads have grown up through the system or have had the right to choose. It's the boys like Waldrom or Hape that I would have a problem with.

The biggest problem I have is the apparent assumption that because they are New Zealanders they must be good enough to play. Waldrom fair enough as a 3rd/4th choice emergency cover but can't see how he was ever considered first choice. Hape though should never have been anywhere near the team.

Theres as many South Africans abroad.

Fluxy wrote:Don't you mean Samoans that play for New Zealand ala;

John Afoa, Jerry Collins, Christian Cullen, Jerome Kaino, Kevin Mealaum, Mils Muliaina, Ma'a Nonu, Julien Savea and Sonny Bill Williams - to name just a few

Don't think Christian Cullen was Samoan.

You can have Waldrom and Hape back any time. And Flutey. And even Hartley

thebluesmancometh wrote:well there are a large number of kiwi hertaged players around the world, but then there are a large number of PI heritaged players in NZ too, it really is a case of friends who care...

But I suspect the answers your looking for are...

- Because kiwi's are the cheap street walkers of rugby willing to leave home for a few shiny penny's!

or

- The kiwi system is full to the brim with more talented PI players the actual kiwis have to source employment elsewhere.

That help?

I don't agree with this but as a riposte it is just beautiful

5 stars for this dallym

I'm going to be a bit controversial here and suggest that it's partly New Zealand's fault. No, not just for being very good. But because I think New Zealand were a big influence in the game going professional. New Zealand rugby, it is often said, was pretty much professional in ethos a fair while before the game officially turned professional. In doing so (being/acting professional before everyone else) they spurred to the game on to become professional across the globe in an attempt to catch up and to put in place proper structures to challenge. As soon as the game turned professional you then had the usual market forces coming into play, same as in any professional job market. So for me, by being the originators of professionalism and the professional approach to rugby, and the subsequent change to a fully pro sport, New Zealand has helped in many ways to introduce the market forces that are now leading to many players seeking lucrative careers elsewhere.

So, in a sort of backhanded compliment sort of way, I'm saying that by being so good and so professional, and making the game the pro sport it is today, unfortunately that has meant that you've helped to turn the game into one where teams want to buy in the best from around the planet (the best very often being from NZ).

You should have been rubbish instead - we may have still been amateur now and players would not have such incentive to move on!

profitius wrote:Theres as many South Africans abroad.

Fluxy wrote:Don't you mean Samoans that play for New Zealand ala;

John Afoa, Jerry Collins, Christian Cullen, Jerome Kaino, Kevin Mealaum, Mils Muliaina, Ma'a Nonu, Julien Savea and Sonny Bill Williams - to name just a few

Don't think Christian Cullen was Samoan.

Not entirely, he has Samoan blood in him - which would still gave him the choice.

Like the point has been made, most of these lads have come up through the youth systems or grown up in the countries and adopted them as their own. I was merely trying to state that most have a choice, and that with the migration of people and populations over the years its bound to happen.

It is highly unlikely in this day and age that a whole team will be fully originated from that one country. In the end each country is as bad as the next, its not anyone's fault if they are entitled to the choice.

I'd pay for Hartleys plane ticket, dire player.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd pay for Hartleys plane ticket, dire player.

Not for the saints though.

Dire is maybe a little harsh. Overatted and annoying perhaps more apt.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dire is maybe a little harsh. Overatted and annoying perhaps more apt.

The thing with Hartley is that he is annoying for both sides though!! I would strongly suggest that if he had tried harder for the kiwi shirt, focused on areas he can control, and was taught to focus his agression in the right areas he couldve developed into a handy little player. He still to me wreaks of raw potential but knowing his age and experience that must drive England fans nuts at times!!!

Hartley still looks like an angry baby to me

dallym wrote:Australia have Digby, Quade and Mike Harris.
England have Thomas Waldrom and in recent years regularly used Shontayne and Flutey
at the last RWC it was revealed that half the Samoan squad were New Zealanders
Japan constantly have a steady stream of New Zealanders in their team

And then there's the coaching. Dingo in Aus. Warren with Wales in the Lions. Before him both Sir Ted and Shag coached Wales. Warren has spent time with Ireland too. Sir JK coached Italy and Japan. Canada have Kieran Crowley. And at assistant levels there are lots of Kiwis like Greg Feek with the Irish.


It's beyond a joke. The rest of the world looks at the All Blacks, see a few PI looking players and say that New Zealand is raping the Pacific Islands, yet the majority of those players are actually New Zealanders with PI heritage. And at the same time as they say it, their team and coaching staff is flooded with New Zealanders.

And it's just not at the elite level. Japan, France, UK, Australia. They all rely on top New Zealand talent to fill their professional teams


Thoughts?

Take a wild guess.

SecretFly wrote:

dallym wrote:Australia have Digby, Quade and Mike Harris.
England have Thomas Waldrom and in recent years regularly used Shontayne and Flutey
at the last RWC it was revealed that half the Samoan squad were New Zealanders
Japan constantly have a steady stream of New Zealanders in their team

And then there's the coaching. Dingo in Aus. Warren with Wales in the Lions. Before him both Sir Ted and Shag coached Wales. Warren has spent time with Ireland too. Sir JK coached Italy and Japan. Canada have Kieran Crowley. And at assistant levels there are lots of Kiwis like Greg Feek with the Irish.


It's beyond a joke. The rest of the world looks at the All Blacks, see a few PI looking players and say that New Zealand is raping the Pacific Islands, yet the majority of those players are actually New Zealanders with PI heritage. And at the same time as they say it, their team and coaching staff is flooded with New Zealanders.

And it's just not at the elite level. Japan, France, UK, Australia. They all rely on top New Zealand talent to fill their professional teams


Thoughts?

Take a wild guess.

And I thought I complained a lot about this type of thing.

NZ was colonised (and some would say civilized) by the British. The majority of "All Blacks" have considerable British Heritage. It's more a matter of the return of those with British Ancestery to Britain than "the rest of world relying on NZ". This probably answers the question raised on why there are no Kiwis playing for SA.

Although there are those Cape Crusader trouble makers who need to be squashed by the SARU someone.

Lots of NZ people play rugby overseas because there are lots of good players on NZ and not enough $ or places for all of them in NZ. Also its a great way to travel.
Lots of PI ethnic people play rugby for NZ because there are a lot of PI ethnic people in NZ.
Suggestions that NZ is a poxy little island or that people of PI ethnicity are not real kiwis say more about the writer than anything else.

GloriusEmpire's suggestion that its about Britons returning to Britian seems a brilliant idea until we think about players like Kaino and Toeava playing in Japan.

Plumtree, Mitchell, Spencer, Brown, Sexton, Parkes have contributed to SA rugby but I don't quite know why they are/were needed.

Thoughts?

Hypocritical, arrogant and naive statement at best. Digby, and QC's families, just like the families of Pocock, Genia, Timani, Hooper et al (and just like the families of 50'000 Kiwi's each year) moved to Australia for a better life - the same way many people from the Pacific Islands move to NZ. It's called immigration and perhaps is a difficult concept to understand coming from a place where more people want to leave than stay. It's only natural that some of these people end up playing sport and once they are Australian citizens they have the same rights as anyone who was born here - meaning they can represent the country at sport, run for Prime Minister or claim welfare.

You have got this the wrong way round. Other teams don't "rely" on Kiwis for the betterment of their teams. It is the Kiwi players and coaches who "rely" on these other countries for their employment - bluntly put, they are economic refugees. Without employment O/S they'd be stuck on the farm digging up spuds, herding sheep or they'd be joining the 600'000 other Kiwi's in emigrating to Australia to drive forklifts or put up scaffolding. If those were international sports we'd definitely be relying on (and poaching) Kiwi's.

Give people enough rope...

Jello Biafra wrote:Thoughts?

Hypocritical, arrogant and naive statement at best. Digby, and QC's families, just like the families of Pocock, Genia, Timani, Hooper et al (and just like the families of 50'000 Kiwi's each year) moved to Australia for a better life - the same way many people from the Pacific Islands move to NZ. It's called immigration and perhaps is a difficult concept to understand coming from a place where more people want to leave than stay. It's only natural that some of these people end up playing sport and once they are Australian citizens they have the same rights as anyone who was born here - meaning they can represent the country at sport, run for Prime Minister or claim welfare.

You have got this the wrong way round. Other teams don't "rely" on Kiwis for the betterment of their teams. It is the Kiwi players and coaches who "rely" on these other countries for their employment - bluntly put, they are economic refugees. Without employment O/S they'd be stuck on the farm digging up spuds, herding sheep or they'd be joining the 600'000 other Kiwi's in emigrating to Australia to drive forklifts or put up scaffolding. If those were international sports we'd definitely be relying on (and poaching) Kiwi's.

Don't forget where your current Prime Minister is from.

The fact is you got it very wrong and you should realise that the majority of people going to Aus from NZ are unqualified and actually doing the baisic stuff in Aus whilst the academic ones remain in NZ. I mean why would they want to drag their knuckles along the ground like the Aussies?! I came from Wales to NZ and NEVER considered Australia for many reasons, wanting not to associate with people who would reduce my IQ to their lower level was one. Oh by the way...Australian coach is who???

nganboy wrote:
Plumtree, Mitchell, Spencer, Brown, Sexton, Parkes have contributed to SA rugby but I don't quite know why they are/were needed.

If you want to change the way you are playing, you need coaches with a diferent mentality. We don't have that in SA, apart from Naka Drotske and Nick Mallet.

The NZers in the AUS side mainly came over as children as from what I understand their is a continual positive influx of NZers who migrate to AUS every year from economic reasons... I assume these people often come with their families.

Countries like AUS and the UK get many migrants due to the economic opportunities available in the country. I assume thats also why NZ gets so many pacific islanders also.

Probably more Saffas around the world these days then any other nation... we did an article on this a few years back and I think there were near 100 saffas playing in the top 3 leagues in Europe each week... more so then any other nation.

Also in AUS you guys like Pretorius, Ebersohn, Vickerman, Rathbone and the new Jake White univeristy scholarship in AUS focussing on SA talent solely will increase this figure rapidly... even been a couple of Afrikaners turning out for NZ sides... but this is probably due to natural migration.

Outside of the newly promoted kings with a few foreign players and the Sharks odd flirt with Michelak, Townsend, Goode (all 10s interestingly) over the last 10 odd years SA is purely all SA.... even NZ can't say that.

I earn more in NZ than I could ever earn in the UK and now that the NZ$ is worth 55 pence it is even better. NZ'ers can go to Australia and vice versa and work and live. The unfortunate thing is Kiwis in Australia are treated like 2nd class citizens, they are not well liked by aussies in the mining field as there are not the jobs there once was.

NZ rugby players are chasing the $$$ and this will continue to be the case as NZ needs to double in size to be financially more stable. Bit of problem there many would not like to such a rise but the country could absorb such a rise without making a huge impact on its beauty etc.

fa0019 wrote:The NZers in the AUS side mainly came over as children as from what I understand their is a continual positive influx of NZers who migrate to AUS every year from economic reasons... I assume these people often come with their families.

Countries like AUS and the UK get many migrants due to the economic opportunities available in the country. I assume thats also why NZ gets so many pacific islanders also.

Probably more Saffas around the world these days then any other nation... we did an article on this a few years back and I think there were near 100 saffas playing in the top 3 leagues in Europe each week... more so then any other nation.

Also in AUS you guys like Pretorius, Ebersohn, Vickerman, Rathbone and the new Jake White univeristy scholarship in AUS focussing on SA talent solely will increase this figure rapidly... even been a couple of Afrikaners turning out for NZ sides... but this is probably due to natural migration.

Outside of the newly promoted kings with a few foreign players and the Sharks odd flirt with Michelak, Townsend, Goode (all 10s interestingly) over the last 10 odd years SA is purely all SA.... even NZ can't say that.

Didn't Hernandez play for one of your franchises as well ?

you're right... also at the sharks.

Butch James was injured for much of his career mind so many of those were injury replacements. James was probably more injury prone then Wilkinson.

Yes, he played for the Sharks in 2009

I am sure you had some Welshmen down there to not so long ago, but I cannot put my finger on who it was.

I think Scott Gibbs and Robert Jones played here for a short while.

and then you have Andy Marinos as well... but he's really a saffa.