Why does the rugby world rely on New Zealand to fill their teams?

First topic message reminder :

Australia have Digby, Quade and Mike Harris.
England have Thomas Waldrom and in recent years regularly used Shontayne and Flutey
at the last RWC it was revealed that half the Samoan squad were New Zealanders
Japan constantly have a steady stream of New Zealanders in their team

And then there's the coaching. Dingo in Aus. Warren with Wales in the Lions. Before him both Sir Ted and Shag coached Wales. Warren has spent time with Ireland too. Sir JK coached Italy and Japan. Canada have Kieran Crowley. And at assistant levels there are lots of Kiwis like Greg Feek with the Irish.


It's beyond a joke. The rest of the world looks at the All Blacks, see a few PI looking players and say that New Zealand is raping the Pacific Islands, yet the majority of those players are actually New Zealanders with PI heritage. And at the same time as they say it, their team and coaching staff is flooded with New Zealanders.

And it's just not at the elite level. Japan, France, UK, Australia. They all rely on top New Zealand talent to fill their professional teams


Thoughts?

That picture looks like the guy (DeNiro?) is about to get poked in both eyes.

George Carlin wrote:
Mods have done their tech checks and computer says no.

Perhaps you need to tighten the elastic band or upgrade the hamster?

Cyril wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
Mods have done their tech checks and computer says no.

Perhaps you need to tighten the elastic band or upgrade the hamster?

Sounds exciting, would someone like to explain to a noob?

PrichardThatcher wrote:

Cyril wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
Mods have done their tech checks and computer says no.

Perhaps you need to tighten the elastic band or upgrade the hamster?

Sounds exciting, would someone like to explain to a noob?

We mods have access to the fastest and most cutting edge technology for our due diligence:

This got out of hand, I was only joking around...

I have no idea why the old ghost is attached to me, it is for only 1 reason, Saint disagreed with something I said the actual night I started posting then spent weeks screaming witch to everyone who would listen, which oddly was most posters.

I can categorically say I am, and never have been the ghost, why is this guy so infamous? How good must he have been to wind you all up that he has left this much of a mark?

I worry about Saint, he has some really deep seaded emotions attached to ghost, and can't seem to get over him...

^^^^ yawn more BS posts. Zzzzzzzz!

What you do if you want to start a ghost style thread is that you write a bunch of statements which are broadly correct, but then either use the statements as evidence to 'prove' some controversial conclusion, or just slip a couple of outright lies amongst the 'facts'.

If done well the threads get out of hand very quickly, and the ghost would often be on hand to steer the threads towards chaos, as sometimes the threads would end up being interesting in spite of the original post.

LIW, kind of strange that seeing as a certain someone was dishing out used statements and telling me I was being proven wrong with 'facts'... As I've said elsewhere it's obvious no Welsh poster wishes to debate with him. Too bad for some that The Saint is still popular among his fellow supporters I guess... #witch

I just think that Fanster, so far, is pretty inoffensive compared to some around here. Just because he has a different point of view doesn't make him bad (just obviously, you know, 'wrong'..) and at least he will argue without going into overdrive mode like a couple of posters I can think of. I also think some of his comments about NZ are the kinds of things that GG would not say.

I'd also say that you don't have to be the ghost to be a pain.

Not sure why there is an obsession with grey ghost in the first place. He/she was a poster with a colossal ego (there are so big egos on here but he was the biggest) looking to wind up people for fun.

It's as if some of you want him/her to return.

Agree with lostinwales. I don't see too much wrong with Fanster.

Don't agree with everything he says either but his point of view is interesting none the less.

The Saint wrote:LIW, kind of strange that seeing as a certain someone was dishing out used statements and telling me I was being proven wrong with 'facts'... As I've said elsewhere it's obvious no Welsh poster wishes to debate with him. Too bad for some that The Saint is still popular among his fellow supporters I guess... #witch

Mate, you do realise this is forumotion and not Twitter right? #thisdoesntdoanything.

No, the rugby world does not rely on NZ.

A handful of players isn't reliance.

You could argue that some international sides do pick more foreign born players than they should but that's another topic.

I would say that most sides are guilty of it but some are more obvious than others.

You could easily change the title to - Why does team X rely on Team Y to fill their team?

Though the answer is obvious - it's a lack of strength in depth. I don't blame them for courting these players. They want the best for their national side even if technically they aren't that nationality.

He Welsh NZ management actively pursuing Anscombe direct from NZ in tenuous qualification grounds springs to mind.

PrichardThatcher NZ is largely insignificant when it comes to where Wales recruit their players. Wales have looked to their next door neighbours far more often for players than NZ.

PrichardThatcher wrote: Welsh NZ management actively pursuing Anscombe direct from NZ in tenuous qualification grounds springs to mind

"Tenuous".

So that is what having a Welsh parent is then.

beshocked wrote:PrichardThatcher NZ is largely insignificant when it comes to where Wales recruit their players. Wales have looked to their next door neighbours far more often for players than NZ.

As have the English.

Like who Lorddowlais?

The amount of Welsh players with English connections is numerous.

Lydiate,Jarvis,Charteris,Warburton,North,Ball,Cuthbert,Moriarty, M.Morgan and Francis.

Tried to poach B.Morgan too.

Also Shaun Edwards is English.

Olly Kohn too Beshocked

As for the other way there is Dewi Morris and Josh Lewsey, and a 'tenuous' link to the vunipola brothers. Can't think of anyone else in recent years

Lostinwales fair point though I was talking more about current players.

If we talk about past players then Shanklin and Charvis are candidates too.

beshocked wrote:Lostinwales fair point though I was talking more about current players.

If we talk about past players then Shanklin and Charvis are candidates too.

I get Shanklin but I am still not sure what linked Charvis to Wales.

beshocked wrote:Like who Lorddowlais?

The amount of Welsh players with English connections is numerous.

Lydiate,Jarvis,Charteris,Warburton,North,Ball,Cuthbert,Moriarty, M.Morgan and Francis.

Tried to poach B.Morgan too.

Also Shaun Edwards is English.

I guess all that mix up would be because yous are all also British?  I think you should all try out just one name to describe yourselves rather than the handful of them you use at present

beshocked wrote:Like who Lorddowlais?

Off the top of my head:-

Dewi Morris
Josh Lewsey

Also, you might find this interesting:-

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/wales/s722/st175523/england-half-english

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Like who Lorddowlais?

Off the top of my head:-

Dewi Morris
Josh Lewsey

Two players who aren't in the current England squad.....

I wouldn't say that England actively send out scouts to Wales to find Welsh players with English links.

On the other hand Wales are actively looking across to England to take players to try and fix a lack of strength in depth as an ongoing project.

lostinwales I don't know either.

No team is whiter than white in this respect though. Rules are stupid in places, and anyone involved in a professional capacity is stupid to not play by them.

beshocked wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Like who Lorddowlais?

Off the top of my head:-

Dewi Morris
Josh Lewsey

Two players who aren't in the current England squad.....

I wouldn't say that England actively send out scouts to Wales to find Welsh players with English links.

On the other hand Wales are actively looking across to England to take players to try and fix a lack of strength in depth as an ongoing project.

lostinwales I don't know either.

I did not say they were, I am just saying that England have done it to us as well. Look, I am not complaining, the rules are the rules. The way the UK is divided in is inevitable that things like this will happen, and to be honest I really do not care about UK based players, I have family living in England, they class themselves as Welsh, but their children are English/Welsh it's up to them such is the divine nature in which GREAT BRITAIN is divided. What I cannot sit with though, is players coming over in their twenties gaining residence after three years and playing for the country.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No team is whiter than white in this respect though. Rules are stupid in places, and anyone involved in a professional capacity is stupid to not play by them.

This.

Lorddowlais 2 players is a small amount compared to Wales' current group of English qualified contingent.

Wales are actively recruiting English players on an ongoing basis. You can't deny this.

I don't blame Wales for taking this approach -Wales need to improve strength in depth. Players from their next door neighbour are a natural solution.

Right you lot, i suggest you read this:-

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/24/rugby-eligibility-england-france

England do not poach Welsh talent, yeah right.

The way the world is there's going to be numerous players who qualify for more than 1 country; who really cares. This thread could be renamed does the rugby world rely on South Africans easily enough.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais 2 players is a small amount compared to Wales' current group of English qualified contingent.

Wales are actively recruiting English players on an ongoing basis. You can't deny this.

I don't blame Wales for taking this approach -Wales need to improve strength in depth. Players from their next door neighbour are a natural solution.

Beshocked, I am not denying anything. I am totally aware of what is going on, but to suggest that Wales went to England to get the likes of North, Cuthbert, John Davies ect is a little bit wide of the mark. These kids have been living in Wales from a young age, and they played rugby in Wales and came through the Welsh system.

There has been a long history of Englishmen representing Wales and vice versa, it will happen, especially when loads of English people live in Wales and loads of Welsh live in England. I was in Hereford the other week, and the town center was full of people warring Welsh rugby and Football tops, it's the way we are. I would suppose the same thing happens on the Scottish borders as well, and to be honest I have no gripe what so ever with inter British representation, it is the non British that come here in their twenties to get a pro contract then play for that country after three years that gets me.

1 player who has not yet for declared for any senior side. You'll need to do better than that Lorddowlais. U18s is a long way off from senior rugby.

There are no Welshmen playing for England senior team at the moment. Technically I guess there is Ben Morgan who was Welsh qualified at one point who Wales tried to poach.

Compare that to the large contingent of English qualified Welsh players.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais 2 players is a small amount compared to Wales' current group of English qualified contingent.

Wales are actively recruiting English players on an ongoing basis. You can't deny this.

I don't blame Wales for taking this approach -Wales need to improve strength in depth. Players from their next door neighbour are a natural solution.

Beshocked, I am not denying anything. I am totally aware of what is going on, but to suggest that Wales went to England to get the likes of North, Cuthbert, John Davies ect is a little bit wide of the mark. These kids have been living in Wales from a young age, and they played rugby in Wales and came through the Welsh system.

There has been a long history of Englishmen representing Wales and vice versa, it will happen, especially when loads of English people live in Wales and loads of Welsh live in England. I was in Hereford the other week, and the town center was full of people warring Welsh rugby and Football tops, it's the way we are. I would suppose the same thing happens on the Scottish borders as well, and to be honest I have no gripe what so ever with inter British representation, it is the non British that come here in their twenties to get a pro contract then play for that country after three years that gets me.

Didn't say that Wales went to England to get North or Warburton.

They did for the likes of Cuthbert,Jarvis,Francis and Moriarty. Tried to get Morgan.

The relationship is much more one sided with more English born playing for Wales than vice versa.

My point is that Wales rely heavier on England than England do on Wales. Another point is that Wales rely heavier on English born talent than they do other foreign talent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The way the world is there's going to be numerous players who qualify for more than 1 country; who really cares. This thread could be renamed does the rugby world rely on South Africans easily enough.

Yes, the way the world is going is that you will be able to buy an international rugby team soon.

Yes, who cares?

beshocked wrote:The relationship is much more one sided with more English born playing for Wales than vice versa.

That might be because there are 50 million people in England, and 3 million people living in Wales.

But, that does not mean that it is not a two way street.

Also, they may be "English born" but on most occasions they have Welsh parents, so they could feel as much Welsh as they feel English, like I said earlier, its the way the UK is divided, there is nowhere else on Earth like us, we are unique in the fact that we are all British, then we are Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Irish.

There's a discussion on residency length of time ebop sure, but in the context of the names mentioned recently on the thread none of which are part of buying in talent for the international side. I'd agree around the getting younger players purely to reach their 3 years but when discussing a Moriarty does it matter if he picked England or Wales.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's a discussion on residency length of time ebop sure, but in the context of the names mentioned recently on the thread none of which are part of buying in talent for the international side. I'd agree around the getting younger players purely to reach their 3 years but when discussing a Moriarty does it matter if he picked England or Wales.

Exactly, has anybody spoken to Moriarty ? His old man is Welsh, perhaps he sees himself as being Welsh as well, his father and uncle both played for Wales, perhaps he wants to follow in their footsteps.

beshocked wrote:1 player who has not yet for declared for any senior side. You'll need to do better than that Lorddowlais. U18s is a long way off from senior rugby.

I know, but that does not mean they are not trying to poach him. Lets be honest, he is the exact type of no. 10 that England seem to be crying out for. It looks as though he is being "groomed" by the English set-up.

To be fair we'll be alright for a while with the 10s coming through. Need a few quality 9s if you have any lying around though?

Lorddowlais don't know about you but I am English first and foremost, British 2nd.

Moriarty has been playing his rugby in England, he's been developed by an English club, he was born in England.

Yes perhaps he has links to Wales but why doesn't he play for Wales under age then?

I guess you could argue each nationality case is different but Wales have benefitted a lot from English born players.

I would understand more if he was playing for a Welsh club but he is not.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair we'll be alright for a while with the 10s coming through. Need a few quality 9s if you have any lying around though?

9s.....9s....hmmmmm....let me think. We have Webb, Davies....oi hang on. Bath have just nicked a young qlty uncapped Welsh scrum half from Dragons, you lot keep your mits off him, he's Welsh.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais don't know about you but I am English first and foremost, British 2nd.

I see it different, when I watch the Olympics I support team GB, when I see our brave men and women in the middle east I see them as the British armed forces, after all when the brown smelly stuff hits the fan, we are all in it together. But that is just my opinion, I would never judge anyone to how their loyalty lies.

Lorddowlais that's different though.

In the Olympics there is not a Welsh,Scottish or English team - it is team GB so of course I support them wholeheartedly.

In the middle east yes or any war it's the British forces. All in it together agreed.

Same with the Lions but there is still the national identity of England.

I still see myself as English first and foremost. When I go abroad, I say I am English.

When you go abroad do you call yourself British or Welsh?

beshocked wrote:When you go abroad do you call yourself British or Welsh?

I call myself a Britt. When people ask what part of Britain I am from, I say Wales.

I think of us a s a family. Britain/UK is our surname. Wales, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland are our christian names. Then we all bicker with each other like families do.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais don't know about you but I am English first and foremost, British 2nd.

Moriarty has been playing his rugby in England, he's been developed by an English club, he was born in England.

Yes perhaps he has links to Wales but why doesn't he play for Wales under age then?

I guess you could argue each nationality case is different but Wales have benefitted a lot from English born players.

I would understand more if he was playing for a Welsh club but he is not.

Nationality is a very odd thing.

I was born in England, have a Welsh Dad (English mother, welsh father), 50-50 English/Irish Mum (Irish mother, English father), but that is going on berth places, if you go on blood lines etc it gets even more screwed up. But I am welsh through and through (except on my driving licence where it says place of berth ENGLAND ). I have a work mate who was born in Wales, his parents were both born in wales, but his dads parents were born in Scotland. He classes himself as Welsh/Scottish. In the UK our nationalities are not so easily clear cut as where you were born, or where your parents were born.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair we'll be alright for a while with the 10s coming through. Need a few quality 9s if you have any lying around though?

9s.....9s....hmmmmm....let me think. We have Webb, Davies....oi hang on. Bath have just nicked a young qlty uncapped Welsh scrum half from Dragons, you lot keep your mits off him, he's Welsh.

They can't cap him anyway, can they? He has played for the U20s. Or has that eligibility thing changed now?

Risca Rev wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair we'll be alright for a while with the 10s coming through. Need a few quality 9s if you have any lying around though?

9s.....9s....hmmmmm....let me think. We have Webb, Davies....oi hang on. Bath have just nicked a young qlty uncapped Welsh scrum half from Dragons, you lot keep your mits off him, he's Welsh.

They can't cap him anyway, can they? He has played for the U20s. Or has that eligibility thing changed now?

All depends on who they play against, as that was why the Bristol kids didn't want to play against France u20s for us this year, as it would have made them NEQ and risked their future with Bristol.

What a particularly nasty little original post - and the point of the question is what? (other than to fuel your arrogance and stir up the off season).

In our increasingly small world people are able to add the means to travel, work and experience the world to their desire. Some of those people happen to play rugby......

The rugby world doesn't rely on New Zealand, it simply takes advantage of the fact that there are quite a few good ones who would prefer to be somewhere else. Dallym, perhaps you should invest in some therapy for that superiority complex.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair we'll be alright for a while with the 10s coming through. Need a few quality 9s if you have any lying around though?

9s.....9s....hmmmmm....let me think. We have Webb, Davies....oi hang on. Bath have just nicked a young qlty uncapped Welsh scrum half from Dragons, you lot keep your mits off him, he's Welsh.

They can't cap him anyway, can they? He has played for the U20s. Or has that eligibility thing changed now?

All depends on who they play against, as that was why the Bristol kids didn't want to play against France u20s for us this year, as it would have made them NEQ and risked their future with Bristol.

Yeah I guessed he'd played v France. I remember the ruling over the McShingler thing, but didn't know if it had changed.

LordDowlais wrote:..........like I said earlier, its the way the UK is divided, there is nowhere else on Earth like us, we are unique in the fact that we are all British, then we are Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Irish.

Here, here!
Could not agree more. Extremely well phrased and right on the money!

By they way, I wonder how a player from the Channel Islands or Man, for example, get classified. Not part of the UK, so certainly not English, Welsh, Scottish, or Irish. I believe they belong to the Crown. Would a player from there have to establish 3 years eligibility in one of the UK nations?