Shut up Mark McCafferty

Until your league can produce more than one team that deserves to be at the sharp end of the European competitions you do not have any credibility so shut the **** up, sort out your own problems and then maybe people might listen.

Last 2 years Amlin/HEC semi finalists:

10 Top 14
5 Rabo Pro12
1 AP

Perhaps it adds credense to the claim that it is not a level playing field

broadlandboy wrote:Perhaps it adds credense to the claim that it is not a level playing field

It's not. The Rabo teams have nowhere near the funds of the French. And only the top 3 Irish sides can match the top English sides wages. The other 9 can't. But even then they are far more restricted in the number of foreign players they can sign than the likes of Leicester, Saracens etc. so building strength in depth isn't easy. And their squads tend to be disrupted far more by 6 Nations duty immediately prior to the HC quarter finals. Ulster had no continuity going into this. Maybe we should demand that Toulon restrict their spending to the same level as Dragons and demand they have the same number of southern hemisphere players as Leinster.

Just looking at the evenness of the playing field from my angle.

If its not an even playing field ( and this is doubtful as AP teams were resting players for the HC) then sort your own league out don't try to destroy other leagues

Considering the Rabo only has one team left in the HEC which according to the official Rabo stance is the only European competition you care about.

Fact of the matter is the English and French provide twice the funds they receive and the AP in particular are unhappy about Sky automatically retaining the coverage rights.

I fail to see how your bile fueled rant changes either of the above?

No facts in your post - however this has been done to death.

Why is it impossible to discuss this subject without it descending or starting with vitriolic bilge? None of the parties at the negotiating table are covering themselves with glory. So rather than join the petty ranks of our respective governing bodies, can we not just have a reasoned conversation? We may not agree with others but wouldn't it be a boring world if we all did?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Considering the Rabo only has one team left in the HEC which according to the official Rabo stance is the only European competition you care about.
Fact of the matter is the English and French provide twice the funds they receive and the AP in particular are unhappy about Sky automatically retaining the coverage rights.

I fail to see how your bile fueled rant changes either of the above?

Correction, the Irish Provinces get accused of only thinking about HEC. Which might be true but there you go, they tend to back up their love most times with an extended jaunt for at least one of them. It's Munster's turn this year. 1 is fine.

I keep hearing the view that the European Rugby Cup should be more like the Eurovision. Big Nations put the money in to stage it, Big Nations should never have to suffer for coming in low in the voting. They should always have an automatic chance to win based on money.

Why not just have a Financial Services League?? .... most money wins.

Why not just have a Financial Services League?? .... most money wins.

My team just lost to the biggest spenders in Europe, I'm not fussed we did ourselves proud. We've got a young team and are going alright in our league so will hopefully come back stronger from an easier group next season. It's actually the English and the French that want to move away from European rugby being about the big nations but the Rabo Unions refused to back plans to implement a third tier competition.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Why not just have a Financial Services League?? .... most money wins.

My team just lost to the biggest spenders in Europe, I'm not fussed we did ourselves proud. We've got a young team and are going alright in our league so will hopefully come back stronger from an easier group next season. It's actually the English and the French that want to move away from European rugby being about the big nations but the Rabo Unions refused to back plans to implement a third tier competition.

Get real. If mcafferty gets his way then over the next three years, the aviva premiership will be flooded with the top irish, welsh and scottish players. Harlequins v munster will no longer be the tight affair we witnessed on sunday because players of the ilk of paul oconnel and zebo will be plying their trade in England.

Also Leicester are not a team of young homegrown talent as you suggest. They buy in the majority of their talent. More money would simply mean that instead of bringing in salvi, they'll be signing up warburton etc

Instead of matt tait, it'll be halfpenny.

I said they were young I never said they were home grown, however, Tom Youngs, Cole, Slater, Croft, Ben Youngs and Manu all started their pro careers at the club. Ayerza, Salvi and Morris were the only foreign members of the starting lineup, Ayerza was semi pro, Salvi had been released and had no more Super 15 contracts and Morris was no longer wanted by Leinster when they signed for Tigers. Salvi and Ayerza have both turned down offers from France and Morris turned down Leinster this season, we don't always use our academy all the time but we improve and change the players that come through.

Leinster certainly benefited from our influence on Cullen and Jennings.

Then again if the WRU bothered to maximize their earning potential by selling their Ravi coverage to Sky and encouraged the ERC to actually allow competition in HEC broadcasters then they'd be more cash there to retain players.

Welsh sides aren't the only ones that suffer from big offers from other clubs, Wasps lost Cips, Haskell and Palmer to Oz/France a few years ago. We had Dupuy and Kayser pinched from us having plucked them from the French equivalent of the French A league and made them into French internationals. Everyone has budgets and caps sometimes you just can't afford to keep everyone, Bath have nicked Moody, Hipkiss and now Ford from us because they were willing to splash big portions of the cap where as we could not.

What the PRL and LNR also want is a stronger Amlin as well as sorting out some of the chaff from the HC*. Plus a third tier competition for the teams who are cannon fodder in the Amlin.

* In every HC pool bar one a Pro 12 team finished bottom.

In reality that means an equal % of teams from each of the six nations competing in both the HC and Amlin. What has not been mentioned (though I suspect quite a few Pro 12 fans are very aware of it) is how the majority of Pro 12 teams currently benefit in the ERC rankings from the higher ranking points on offer in the HC as opposed to the Amlin.

Equal % representation in the HC and Amlin would mean a more level playing field, and a Pro 12 where more games mean something.

I wish the English would stop pretending they worry about the Pro12, to the extent that they want to help us construct a League where "more games mean something."

More than Hound say this so I'm not picking on him alone when I say... be honest, you don't give a damn how many games mean anything in Pro12 - most of you don't watch it regularly, if ever.

So just keep the chat to the things we do honestly have an opinion on together.

And in that spirit, yet again, if the chaff* of HC is usually Pro12 sides.... surely that means its an easy ride for the better sides of AP and Top 14? But again this year it's just one AP side in the semis - same representation as Pro12, the Poopie league.
Amlin, the competition that PRL/LNR want to make stronger, has no AP representation.in the semis.

Had fate intervened this year, and many people suspected that more AP sides would be at the business end of European rugby this time, that strong AP representation would have been used right now to underpin the idea that the quality is with the English and French, and that therefore not only should they have the bulk of each contest in numbers but they are also the natural controllers of the rules, based on quality too.

Once again, it didn't pan out that way but dare Pro12 suggest they've more cause to dictate how things should be than others...again.

SecretFly wrote:I wish the English would stop pretending they worry about the Pro12, to the extent that they want to help us construct a League where "more games mean something."

More than Hound say this so I'm not picking on him alone when I say... be honest, you don't give a damn how many games mean anything in Pro12 - most of you don't watch it regularly, if ever.

So just keep the chat to the things we do honestly have an opinion on together.

And in that spirit, yet again, if the chaff* of HC is usually Pro12 sides.... surely that means its an easy ride for the better sides of AP and Top 14? But again this year it's just one AP side in the semis - same representation as Pro12, the Poopie league.
Amlin, the competition that PRL/LNR want to make stronger, has no AP representation.in the semis.

Had fate intervened this year, and many people suspected that more AP sides would be at the business end of European rugby this time, that strong AP representation would have been used right now to underpin the idea that the quality is with the English and French, and that therefore not only should they have the bulk of each contest in numbers but they are also the natural controllers of the rules, based on quality too.

Once again, it didn't pan out that way but dare Pro12 suggest they've more cause to dictate how things should be than others...again.

Maybe all those goodwill feelings the other way regarding the downfall of English rugby and worries of foreign players ruining the English national side, etc are resulting in a unconscious sympathetic reaction.

Given that I cut my teeth on rugby with the Celtic league and still go to more Pro12 games than English club games I do care about the Pro12. But I'm also generally too apathetic to worry too much. Somebody says something I disagree with on the Internet and hold me back. But reality? Can't arsed

SecretFly wrote:I wish the English would stop pretending they worry about the Pro12, to the extent that they want to help us construct a League where "more games mean something."

More than Hound say this so I'm not picking on him alone when I say... be honest, you don't give a damn how many games mean anything in Pro12 - most of you don't watch it regularly, if ever.

So just keep the chat to the things we do honestly have an opinion on together.

And in that spirit, yet again, if the chaff* of HC is usually Pro12 sides.... surely that means its an easy ride for the better sides of AP and Top 14? But again this year it's just one AP side in the semis - same representation as Pro12, the Poopie league.
Amlin, the competition that PRL/LNR want to make stronger, has no AP representation.in the semis.

Had fate intervened this year, and many people suspected that more AP sides would be at the business end of European rugby this time, that strong AP representation would have been used right now to underpin the idea that the quality is with the English and French, and that therefore not only should they have the bulk of each contest in numbers but they are also the natural controllers of the rules, based on quality too.

Once again, it didn't pan out that way but dare Pro12 suggest they've more cause to dictate how things should be than others...again.

Aye, Hound. You're right. Can't be arsed is sometimes the best argument of all, especially when this ERC/PRL one circles and circles and goes nowhere fast.

Fly - that was Hammer who made the can't be arsed comment.

But I do like chucking a 'spanner' in now and again.



Anyway, I think the equal % league representation in the HC and Amlin is a valid point. You have side stepped that point, and the point about the inequity in the ability of Pro 12 teams to accumulate more ERC ranking points under the current HC qualification criteria.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Fly - that was Hammer who made the can't be arsed comment.

But I do like chucking a 'spanner' in now and again.



Anyway, I think the equal % league representation in the HC and Amlin is a valid point. You have side stepped that point, and the point about the inequity in the ability of Pro 12 teams to accumulate more ERC ranking points under the current HC qualification criteria.

You two guys!!!! I do always get afraid of mixing you up. And I actually was worried I'd mentioned the wrong guy the first time and came back to check that I'd got it right. I had...but now I'm wrong the second time Sorry for that, I it must be the 'H's that confuse me.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

You have side stepped that point, and the point about the inequity in the ability of Pro 12 teams to accumulate more ERC ranking points under the current HC qualification criteria.

So change the ranking points. Negotiate the ranking points...What do the ranking points do? Ease the path through the pools? I'd strongly beg the differ on that one if that's the supposition.

malky1963 how many Italian,Scottish and Welsh sides made the business end of the Amlin and HC?

Of the Pro12 teams only the Irish ones consistently have made a decent impact.

The Irish have stayed very loyal to their less successful celtic cousins.

Feckless Rogue Ulster were disrupted by injuries far more so than international call ups. Plus there seemed to be a lot of confidence from Ulster fans after they beat Leinster.

Most sides in the HC quarter finals had international call ups. Just some sides happened to integrate their players back into their clubs better.