Is it time to do away with the 6N and the 4N, the June and November tests?

On another thread, someone made a comment that familiarity breeds contempt and that playing someone year in year out gets a bit stale. Bledisloe Cup matches I must admit have become a bit like that. In recent times we have played Australia 4 times. You only need to ask a fan from Wales that that's an overkill!

The 4N and the 3N before it made the possibility of touring South Africa for a traditional 3 match series an impossibility. The one-off tests at the end of the year in November have their supporters but they have their fair share of critics, myself included.

What if rugby went down the road of sevens and cricket and introduced a global circuit of test matches that all went to moving towards your rankings in a World Cup year and determined your qualification for said tournament? What if every year instead of the 4N and 6N we had teams playing three tests at home and away against all the nations involved in rugby. Let's say Australia played Kenya and NZ played Georgia and England played Japan. Teams could decide which players they sent (to develop younger or promising players) and rest their stars for the important tours.

Personally I'd much prefer to see three test tours with warm up matches against clubs or composite sides and my national tea, travelling to all parts of the globe instead of returning to the same familiar faces and places. The distribution of the ranking points would probably reflect a more honest place of a team in the world rugby hierarchy and rugby would be making a serious attempt at being a global sport and developing the game outside the top ranked teams instead of paying lip service to that idea.

What say you?

I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.

Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

Instead of the 4N or 6N as we know it, may they be a regional tournament to decide the winners of the top teams in a specific region so they include ALL the teams in that particular region instead of the chosen few.

Nope -6N fine as is. Can't comment on the 4N.

The proximity of the countries in the 6N (and regularity of the fixtures) means that significant groups of fans can travel to away matches, which means game atmospheres which are hard to replicate otherwise. Its not perfect by any means (e.g. space/opportunity for other European nations, balance of home and away games) but all things considered its the best we can get at the moment and I would guess for some time in the future

I oppose any proposal to do away with the 6 Nations. Whilst I'm happy to expand it and make it a bigger tournament once other nations are ready to participate, I don't want it removed from the rugby calendar. It's a fantastic tournament with wonderful history. You can't create that from scratch.

I tend to agree, but i wouldn't want to see end of 6 nations and 4 nations. It would be nice to see more "minnows" playing NH and SH teams. For instance, this years autumn internationals. I can already predict who Scotland will be playing.. Australia, Argentina and probably Fiji or Samoa. I'd like to see Australia, Argentina, Georgia and USA or Canada.

I like your train of thought Kia.

What if we had the 6 nations and 4 nations every 2nd year and then a different form of tournament in the years where there was no 6 or 4 nations?

I like this summer tournament in SA this year.. Scotland, Italy, Samoa and SA..

That is going to be a cracking contest. More of that sort of thing would be nice to see.

lostinwales wrote:Nope -6N fine as is. Can't comment on the 4N.

The proximity of the countries in the 6N (and regularity of the fixtures) means that significant groups of fans can travel to away matches, which means game atmospheres which are hard to replicate otherwise. Its not perfect by any means (e.g. space/opportunity for other European nations, balance of home and away games) but all things considered its the best we can get at the moment and I would guess for some time in the future

Understood, but when was the last time Wales played England or France or any of the Six nation countries in a three test series?

Would you not love to see that?

bsando wrote:

I like this summer tournament in SA this year.. Scotland, Italy, Samoa and SA..

That is going to be a cracking contest. More of that sort of thing would be nice to see.

I agree I am quite looking forward to it, will be something new and fresh.

"Australia played Kenya and NZ played Georgia and England played Japan."

Those three alone...would they be games or would they be massacres? Would fans really travel to see their team do a hatchet job on a minnow? Would it really help your side continue to develop the intensity needed to really challenge at the highest end of the ranking table?

Would TV actually pay to watch Australia slaughter Kenya?

It's all about money first and not turning rugby into a celebrity Harlem Globetrotters event second.

And if, as you say, the Nations could choose when to play their A team, why would they risk a B team and risk losing hard fought for ranking points?

And, if they did play their B sides to play against poorer sides, that would mean the A team would only get 3 or 4 Internationals a year?

I would never want the 6N to be disbanded.

EVER.

I would be much happier winning the 6N than the RWC, for me it is everything in the Rugby calender.

Ah, well Kia, you gave it a shot.

And the World Cup 2015 goes to Scotland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You really think you wouldn't think that special??

Biltong wrote:I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.
Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

That is actually, a very good idea. I'd also scrap the Lions...

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.
Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

That is actually, a very good idea. I'd also scrap the Lions...

Why don't you like the Lions?

...don't make him say it all again, Biltong. He gets chewed up everytime by the Lions thought police bootboys

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.
Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

That is actually, a very good idea. I'd also scrap the Lions...

Why don't you like the Lions?

My reasons are well documented on the thread you just locked out.

Secret Italy were allowed into the 6n and they have beaten most 5n teams. Look at sevens and see how minnow nations compete with regular meaningful competition. Why can't that happen in the 15s version?why do some teams get first slice of the cake without deserving it?

Biltong wrote:Understood, but when was the last time Wales played England or France or any of the Six nation countries in a three test series?

Would you not love to see that?

I would love more opportunity to beat the English, the more the better !

Seriously though - I think some innovation in international rugby fixtures and competitions would be great but I'm not ready to throw out a tournement like the 6N's just yet. Perhaps alternating with a test series approach could work.

Is there some resistance because there is the possibility that some teams might find themselves even lower down the rankings if all teams got to compete on a more even basis instead of closing themselves off from a truly global competition?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Secret Italy were allowed into the 6n and they have beaten most 5n teams. Look at sevens and see how minnow nations compete with regular meaningful competition. Why can't that happen in the 15s version?why do some teams get first slice of the cake without deserving it?

Bacause tradition is a hard thing to kill when sponsorship money and TV interest follow it.

Sevens is Sevens. 15 is a different game. There would be blood.... and if that's what New Zealand, England, Welsh and Australian fans really want to see - fine. They'll buy the deal and go on the trips.

But I genuinely don't think they want that - yet. Look at New Zeland, they already yawn when yet another BIG Six Nation side comes down to try and turn them over. The fans yawn, the papers yawn, the TV pundits yawn, the goal posts yawn.... We really think New Zealand /Kenya is going to have New Zealanders on the edge of their seats wondering what the result might be???

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.
Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

That is actually, a very good idea. I'd also scrap the Lions...

Why don't you like the Lions?

My reasons are well documented on the thread you just locked out.

Mate that thread hurt my head.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Is there some resistance because there is the possibility that some teams might find themselves even lower down the rankings if all teams got to compete on a more even basis instead of closing themselves off from a truly global competition?

Resistance because its not a good idea I suspect.

Outside of the top sides - or 'established' rugby nations if you like - how many teams ranked in the top 100 or teams that you have named such as Georgia for example could expect to compete? How would they even improve to a level that could be considered to be competetive? These countries have small player bases and even less interest in the sport to make it viable.

The bottom line is that they still wouldn't be playing enough internationally to acheive that level and would be absolutely spanked - routinely, by 'Established' teams in front of limited audiences.

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:I don't think it must fall away completely, the 6 natiions and 4 nations are the two hemispheres championship tournaments and should remain, but play they ever 4 years just the the RWC, the rest of the time, 3 test tours please.
Will you now run along and go tell the IRB?

That is actually, a very good idea. I'd also scrap the Lions...

Why don't you like the Lions?

My reasons are well documented on the thread you just locked out.

Mate that thread hurt my head.

Well, you asked...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Is there some resistance because there is the possibility that some teams might find themselves even lower down the rankings if all teams got to compete on a more even basis instead of closing themselves off from a truly global competition?

Not from me. I have no interest in rankings and love to see Wales take on SH teams (which have clearly been the consistently best international sides for decades). It's just that I have grown up loving rugby and the 5/6N's with such a passion I wouldn't wanty to lose it. Although I would like to see other broader competitions introduced.

That's not going to be every game. Look at cricket. England played nz and nearly lost the series. My sevens analogy is to show if you put minnow sides in regular competition with better sides they improve just like Italy has. I think nz fans would be more enthused about a 3 series tour to Sa or having England at home for 3 games than the current rc and ai set up.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's not going to be every game. Look at cricket. England played nz and nearly lost the series. My sevens analogy is to show if you put minnow sides in regular competition with better sides they improve just like Italy has. I think nz fans would be more enthused about a 3 series tour to Sa or having England at home for 3 games than the current rc and ai set up.

Apart from Kenya (occasionally) which 'minnow' sevens side has ever caused any of the established nation sides any real trouble?

The Test series just about works for cricket because there are only 9 test playing nations. Even then the weaker nation series are hard to sell commercially, and increasingly Test cricket is struggling even in the big nations. Hardly a great model to use for rugby.

Secondly a lot of the nations being talked about couldn't host home series, either through not having stadia or pro-teams to face the tourists.

Thirdly there would be little interest from the money men or TV companies.

Fourthly the position of the RWC would affect the schedule. For example would NZ be happy to be going into a RWC having just had series against Tonga and USA?

The 6N cannot easily be slotted into a wider schedule either as it is really a rolling two year tourament with alternate home/away fixtures against opponents - so any change would mean it being scrapped.

Interesting thought for the teams outside the 6N & 4N.

Gotta get the big boys to the islands.

I appreciate the NH affinity with the 6N as it's logistically feasible to travel and support your team. Hell I flew to Rome from Dublin to watch the ABs in November and was pretty pleased with myself about it. But it's the only comp that doesn't involve long haul travel for the supporters. That's why the atmosphere is so great-the fans have the opposition fans to bounce off. How many NZ supporters were in La Plata? I mean come on a game in Argentina (would love one at River Plate stadium) would be awesome but I'm not that loaded. Think of the cost of following around one 4N team for the tournament weighed up against that of the 6N. I'd love the comps to be biannually with these shenanigans and the Lions and WCs in the other years.

It has taken years of humiliation for Italy to improve. The improvement also had little to do with an annual International event and more to do with them getting up to speed using Pro12 and having their players play in other leagues throughout Europe.

Had Italy's only exposure to the top players of top European sides been through Six Nations games every year and a few other Internationals sprinkled through, they wouldn't be improving and they'd still be getting slaughtered.

Their experience is being gained under a different format. 15 rugby played at its highest level is a dangerous sport. For example, throwing ill prepared players at a highly professional scrummaging team would be very dangerous and no competition.

disney, I ave mentioned this in the past as well.

I beleive the Rucgby Championship must invite the winning team of the previous years Pacific nations cup to compete in the tournament.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's not going to be every game. Look at cricket. England played nz and nearly lost the series. My sevens analogy is to show if you put minnow sides in regular competition with better sides they improve just like Italy has. I think nz fans would be more enthused about a 3 series tour to Sa or having England at home for 3 games than the current rc and ai set up.

You can do that by using tournaments like the Churchill cup. Great opportunity to test out 2nd tier players for the big boys, chances of closer match ups for the minnows. Evolution. You have the RWC every 4 years for a free for all, but outside of that I just dont think that there is that much appetite for 50point+ winning margins.

Sevens is short game and doesnt require the technical abilities in the tight which can take a while to develop (teams like Georgia excepted) so you wont see ridiculous score lines

This ship has sailed, time for Biltong to lock another thread methinks..

Jimpy wrote:This ship has sailed, time for Biltong to lock another thread methinks..

only if it turns nasty.

SecretFly wrote:And the World Cup 2015 goes to Scotland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You really think you wouldn't think that special??

Certainly not realistic! I would still prefer 1 6N grandslam as opposed to winning the RWC.

The 6N is the bread and butter for NH rugby, the histrory, banter, travel, the glorious cities, the cold, the forward dominated play, the glimmers of running rugby, the calcutta cup, the triple crown it all adds up.

It's the most wonderful time of the yeeeeeeeeeear!

I take it all back. Have your 6 N.

But no November or June tours.

Is there any point to these tests? Should there be an open market and the freedom to travel to play any test rugby nation. There are countries with lucrative markets waiting to be tapped? What do we learn from these one off tests or series with differing preparation and timing in the seasons?

Discuss.

Don't say discuss mate I hate that!

I reckon it's already an open market for those tests but teams are playing others in venues that make the fixtures economically viable.

I am going to combine this thread and the other Kia, ultimately it is pretty much the same discussion.

I'm only taking the electric puha Disney. I hate it too.

Interesting reading some of the comments.

I'm not one to hold onto tradition for the sake of it. The obvious reason to keep 6 nations is because it's established and successful as a 'product'. However I like the idea of trying something new. I'd up for trying a European competition during the Lions every four years. However, as I understand it the IRB have set the 'summer' as the period when European tours the rest of the world and the autumn as when the rest of the world tours Europe. This means everyone has a chance at some home tour games for money and development issues.

It's a difficult one and really needs the whole season structure pulling down. Big risk regarding sponsorship and TV so unlikely to happen.

Surely then the answer is to keep AIs and summer tours but make them 3 test series tours instead of trying to fit as many opponents in as possible. Reduces the 'boredom' of familiarity but retains the number of games between SH and NH.

Interesting kia how you only really mentioned the ABs having a
Test series against england or SA? Is that because australia are too familiar and the rest aside from france too easy? Possibly NZ have screwed the.pooch competition wise by becoming too damn good. Maybe an IRB rule to only allow 13 all blacks might level things out and make matches more.interesting?

I have to admit Kia, of all the events listed the 6N seems to be the most passionate to some supporters and seeing 60,000 at Murrayfield for an Ireland Scotland match all wrapped up in blankets just blows me away...

The rugby can be shoite and we only win once every 300 years, but you cannot take away the 6 Nations. It simply overflows with history and memories and grudges and friendships.

I very nearly vomited when Vincent Clerc scored against us in the last minute in '07. It still makes me queasy now. And I was literally shaking with excitement when the whistle blew and we won the Grand Slam in '09.

Nothing else in rugby causes me makes me react like I do to victory/defeat to our ancient rivals. Just hope Ireland bring more to it next year.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The rugby can be shoite and we only win once every 300 years, but you cannot take away the 6 Nations. It simply overflows with history and memories and grudges and friendships.

I very nearly vomited when Vincent Clerc scored against us in the last minute in '07. It still makes me queasy now. And I was literally shaking with excitement when the whistle blew and we won the Grand Slam in '09.

Nothing else in rugby causes me makes me react like I do to victory/defeat to our ancient rivals. Just hope Ireland bring more to it next year.

Probally not mate.

but i would be happy to schedule them every 2 years instead of 1 and have a NH and SH cup which includes other nations(once every 4)

also have an off year during the RWC - play more tests instead.

The concern is that its a risk. We have garanteed money today and if we do this tommorow we could lose out in the short term.

But for world Union growth, surely this is what is needed. And for us fans it will be pretty nice to have another cup- surely

A few years back Ulster put over 50 points against Portugal ( a 2nd tier side at the time) playing in 2nd gear.

There is no point playing such teams at International level.

What I would suggest is the 2nd Divsion 6 Nations play such games regularly against good club/provincial/regional sides. When they become competitive at that level then they could be promoted to regular annual fixture status.

Do away with 6 Nations are you mad.... The SH only set up the Tri Nations (and now RC) as they where jealous of our fantastic tournament and the fever it generates every year. Get rid of the SH championship if you want but leave our 6 Nations alone...

As for Summer and Autumn tours, it is up to the touring sides to arrange and decide where they tour. I personally think they are a great thing and should remain. The only reason they tour the "big" sides is that is where the most interest is. There is nothing stopping the All Blacks touring Namibia, Portugal, Spain this Autumn if they wanted. They only reason they wont, is it wont generate enough income touring those countries to pay for the tour.

Surely, if New Zealand want to develop rugby, the first thing they should start doing is stop poaching players from the Islands so they will play for their own country. After all, we have enough New Zealand qualified players playing for NH national sides simply because they cant get a All Black jersey. They might, if New Zealand didn't poach Fijians, Tongans, Samoans, etc..

The June and November Tests will stay as most of the Unions need the cash to fund their top down structure and the participants will remain the same too, in order to generate the required returns.

The alternative is to cut costs and offload players or ditch club funding as the clubs are no longer the top tier, which is politically difficult for Unions.

Short term concentration of assets as opposed to longer term diversification will eventually catch up with those centralising Unions.

sirBiggles wrote:Do away with 6 Nations are you mad.... The SH only set up the Tri Nations (and now RC) as they where jealous of our fantastic tournament and the fever it generates every year. Get rid of the SH championship if you want but leave our 6 Nations alone...

As for Summer and Autumn tours, it is up to the touring sides to arrange and decide where they tour. I personally think they are a great thing and should remain. The only reason they tour the "big" sides is that is where the most interest is. There is nothing stopping the All Blacks touring Namibia, Portugal, Spain this Autumn if they wanted. They only reason they wont, is it wont generate enough income touring those countries to pay for the tour.

Surely, if New Zealand want to develop rugby, the first thing they should start doing is stop poaching players from the Islands so they will play for their own country. After all, we have enough New Zealand qualified players playing for NH national sides simply because they cant get a All Black jersey. They might, if New Zealand didn't poach Fijians, Tongans, Samoans, etc..

I was agreeing with you up to the last paragraph. As has all to frequently been pointed out, a large number of islanders have migrated to NZ and as a result are able to choose who to represent. Its a bit like people with Welsh heritage born in England choosing to play for either England or Wales...

Keep fishing Biggles.