Ireland November Tests.

by carpet baboon Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:59 pm

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

by eirebilly Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:16 pm

I would like to see Rory Scannell at 12 and if fit either Marshall or Olding at 13.

Any news on Payne? Last I heard he was suffering from bad Migraines after a hit to the head on a tour match.

by marty2086 Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:26 pm

Crazy that Ringrose was taken on tour when he would have been better served going in for the surgery and likely be ready for the new season or the early stages of it at worst

Guys like Conan and Leavy deserve a shot in the bigger games

eirebilly wrote:I would like to see Rory Scannell at 12 and if fit either Marshall or Olding at 13.

Any news on Payne? Last I heard he was suffering from bad Migraines after a hit to the head on a tour match.

Marshall and Olding are 12s and should predominately be playing there going forward, Marshall defending at 13 has seemed suspect when he's there for Ulster

Paynes migraines were nothing to do with a knock to the head, he cleared all protocols and was going for tests to get to the root of the problem. No word on anything in the last few weeks on that front

by eirebilly Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:35 pm

Scannell can also play 13 so problem solved the if you are against Olding or Marshall at 13 marty thumbsup

by marty2086 Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:41 pm

Olding at 13 would be interesting to see, think he's only played one game there for Ulster though and is out with a knee injury at the minute

Not sure if he'll be back for November

by theslosty Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:46 pm

When does Aki qualify?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:02 pm

I'm really not a fan of players carrying injuries and being allowed to play. Now Ringrose is going to miss much more important games than USA/Japan. Surely Leo Cullen and Leinster won't be happy with that decision either?

Anyway, too far away to really know what the team will be like. Who is going to play at 12/13 for Leinster? That will be interesting.

by eirebilly Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm really not a fan of players carrying injuries and being allowed to play. Now Ringrose is going to miss much more important games than USA/Japan. Surely Leo Cullen and Leinster won't be happy with that decision either?

Anyway, too far away to really know what the team will be like. Who is going to play at 12/13 for Leinster? That will be interesting.

Is it management that id forcing players to play with injuries or is it players thinking they can play through the injuries and convincing the management?

Either way it is very short sighted.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:34 pm

There's also SOB and Sexton to receive results from their scans. It's a good thing Ireland are starting to develop some real depth 1-15. The bad thing is that many of the backups are extremely inexperienced, particularly in the centre. That is what happens if you rarely stray from the norm.

by Pete330v2 Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm really not a fan of players carrying injuries and being allowed to play. Now Ringrose is going to miss much more important games than USA/Japan. Surely Leo Cullen and Leinster won't be happy with that decision either?

Anyway, too far away to really know what the team will be like. Who is going to play at 12/13 for Leinster? That will be interesting.

Is it management that id forcing players to play with injuries or is it players thinking they can play through the injuries and convincing the management?

Either way it is very short sighted.

The IRFU being short sighted? Surely not Smile

by the-goon Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:12 am

Do we have any news of Sexton and SOB's scans?

by Pete330v2 Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:09 pm

They're both expecting twins

by GunsGermsV2 Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:01 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm really not a fan of players carrying injuries and being allowed to play. Now Ringrose is going to miss much more important games than USA/Japan. Surely Leo Cullen and Leinster won't be happy with that decision either?

Anyway, too far away to really know what the team will be like. Who is going to play at 12/13 for Leinster? That will be interesting.

Is it management that id forcing players to play with injuries or is it players thinking they can play through the injuries and convincing the management?

Either way it is very short sighted.

The IRFU being short sighted? Surely not

Id say the IRFU is probably one of if not the best run union in world rugby, I wouldnt describe them as short sighted.

I would also imagine in many cases the players want to play. To be at the level they are you need a real hunger to make the team as much as possible. Schmidt has a very good record of not starting players that arent fully fit.

by Marshes Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:03 pm

theslosty wrote:When does Aki qualify?

November. I'd say with the injuries he will definitely be in line for some gametime (if he accepts the call).

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:21 pm

4 tickets for Ireland v SA. Cant wait for this one.

by Maine man Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:45 pm

When does the Munster fly half qualify?

by Marshes Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:44 pm

January 2018

by westisbest Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:03 pm

Get some Connacht lads in there.
Griffin, even put TOH in centre.

Would like to see Okding in centre.
What's the story with McCloskey?

Thought he looked decent, but was then dropped after England game I think it was.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:46 pm

westisbest wrote:Get some Connacht lads in there.
Griffin, even put TOH in centre.

Would like to see Okding in centre.
What's the story with McCloskey?

Thought he looked decent, but was then dropped after England game I think it was.

I don't think we will be seeing Olding...Marshall will play and possibly McCloskey if he has a good few months.

by geoff999rugby Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:28 am

Regarding centres this autumn I reckon Luke Marshall is a shoe in if Payne, Henshaw and Ringrose are all out

He has 4 more caps than Scannell, Carbery and Aki combined - he will be the old hand in the midfield

McCloskey has got to improve a lot and the likes of Griffin and TOH will be nowhere near

by Rory_Gallagher Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:50 pm

I think that Marshall will start at 12 with Scannell on the bench covering 10/12. Unless Carbery is in the 23, but Scannell covers centre where there is probably a greater need than back three cover. It's still early days though.

by eirebilly Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:01 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Regarding centres this autumn I reckon Luke Marshall is a shoe in if Payne, Henshaw and Ringrose are all out

He has 4 more caps than Scannell, Carbery and Aki combined - he will be the old hand in the midfield

McCloskey has got to improve a lot and the likes of Griffin and TOH will be nowhere near

What's the latest news on Payne? Have not heard anything about him since the Lions tour...

by geoff999rugby Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:02 pm

If Im honest doesn't look great - my view is Bowe is definitely finished, Payne could well be and Trimble possibly
With Piatau going as well Ulster could be short of back three players next year.
If a certain court case goes a certain way you could add midfield to that as well.
Given the abundance over recent years hard to believe - no back three players in our academy and only 2 centres

by eirebilly Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:27 pm

Its certainly looking very dire for Ulster for many reasons.

The IRFU need to get involved and support them as much as possible right now.

by Pete330v2 Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:Its certainly looking very dire for Ulster for many reasons.

The IRFU need to get involved and support them as much as possible right now.

Not something they're known for Billy, not where Ulster are concerned. It's worrying, very worrying but sure what would supporting Ulster be without the constant worry and drama Smile

by Marshes Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:43 pm

Was just saying in the other thread I don't know what the point of this Nucifora project is when we have provinces with obvious gaps in the squad versus provinces with too many players for gametime in those same positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ulsters backrow options are currently:
Henry, Diack, Deysel (all past 30), Reidy, Coetzee (off the back of some very serious knee injuries), and Clive Ross.
Leinster have SOB, Heaslip, Conan, VDF, Ruddock, Leavy, Jordi Murphy (all internationally capped and I would say test quality) Deegan and Timmins. Dom Ryan, a quality player, couldn't get a look in and went to Leicester.

Ulster at second row have Henderson, AOC, Treadwell (anyone else?)
Leinster have Toner, Molony, Nagle, Kearney, James Ryan coming through, and were allowed to sign Scott Fardy

Is it more a case of bad transitional planning by Ulster, or are they not getting the support they need from the IRFU?

by marty2086 Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:50 pm

Diack is moving to second row this season, we have Pete Browne who seemed to fall out of favour towards the end of last season can over second row and 6 but hasn't played in the back row for Ulster yet and the Rea brothers coming through but are nowhere near ready and Nick Timoney who seems to be more a 7s player these days

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:57 pm

Marshes wrote:Was just saying in the other thread I don't know what the point of this Nucifora project is when we have provinces with obvious gaps in the squad versus provinces with too many players for gametime in those same positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ulsters backrow options are currently:
Henry, Diack, Deysel (all past 30), Reidy, Coetzee (off the back of some very serious knee injuries), and Clive Ross.
Leinster have SOB, Heaslip, Conan, VDF, Ruddock, Leavy, Jordi Murphy (all internationally capped and I would say test quality) Deegan and Timmins. Dom Ryan, a quality player, couldn't get a look in and went to Leicester.

Ulster at second row have Henderson, AOC, Treadwell (anyone else?)
Leinster have Toner, Molony, Nagle, Kearney, James Ryan coming through, and were allowed to sign Scott Fardy

Is it more a case of bad transitional planning by Ulster, or are they not getting the support they need from the IRFU?

Ulster players historically dont move to other Irish provinces much do they? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of the player traffic is between Connacht, Munster and Leinster.

by marty2086 Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:02 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Marshes wrote:Was just saying in the other thread I don't know what the point of this Nucifora project is when we have provinces with obvious gaps in the squad versus provinces with too many players for gametime in those same positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ulsters backrow options are currently:
Henry, Diack, Deysel (all past 30), Reidy, Coetzee (off the back of some very serious knee injuries), and Clive Ross.
Leinster have SOB, Heaslip, Conan, VDF, Ruddock, Leavy, Jordi Murphy (all internationally capped and I would say test quality) Deegan and Timmins. Dom Ryan, a quality player, couldn't get a look in and went to Leicester.

Ulster at second row have Henderson, AOC, Treadwell (anyone else?)
Leinster have Toner, Molony, Nagle, Kearney, James Ryan coming through, and were allowed to sign Scott Fardy

Is it more a case of bad transitional planning by Ulster, or are they not getting the support they need from the IRFU?

Ulster players historically dont move to other Irish provinces much do they? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of the player traffic is between Connacht, Munster and Leinster.

Faloon, Crea, Porter and O'Connor all moved to Connacht. Dougall to Munster via Rotherham, Boss to Leinster, Botha to Munster, Sam Arnold to Munster

by geoff999rugby Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:21 pm

The problems at Ulster is established players don't move from Leinster or Munster
The other problem is our Fraked up schools competition inhibits player development meaning we don't don't get the forwards coming through.
A significant number of our academy are Leinster boys who basically have come north because they have more chancve of breaking through in Belfast than in Dublin

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Faloon, Crea, Porter and O'Connor all moved to Connacht. Dougall to Munster via Rotherham, Boss to Leinster, Botha to Munster, Sam Arnold to Munster

That is very few in the history of professional rugby, some of them arent even natives such as Botha and Boss.

I think Ulster would benefit from more inward and outward movement. Leinster is only a couple hours down the road.

by marty2086 Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:57 pm

Arnold and Dougall aren't natives but came through the academy.

As geoff says, the problem in Ulster lies with the Schools Cup. Its used as the main pathway for Ulster and not fit for the professional game. Kiss seems to be trying to move away from it but it won't be easy especially with Ulster clubs outside of the top tier

by GunsGermsV2 Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:02 pm

All provinces use the schools cups though as the pathway to the academies.

by geoff999rugby Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:25 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:All provinces use the schools cups though as the pathway to the academies.

In other provinces the schools cup does not have the same status.
In other provinces players are prevented, by their schools, from training with clubs who have professionals coaching them.

by marty2086 Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:54 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:All provinces use the schools cups though as the pathway to the academies.

In other provinces the schools cup does not have the same status.
In other provinces players aren't prevented, by their schools, from training with clubs who have professionals coaching them.

by geoff999rugby Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Thanks Marty - at least you knew what I meant thumbsup

by GunsGermsV2 Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:14 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:All provinces use the schools cups though as the pathway to the academies.

In other provinces the schools cup does not have the same status.
In other provinces players are prevented, by their schools, from training with clubs who have professionals coaching them.

Really? I went to a rugby school in Leinster and the Leinster schools senior cup is a pretty big deal. A lot of the better players in that tournament seem to end up in the Leinster academy.

Also why would a schools player play for a club as well? Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment.

by geoff999rugby Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:29 am

Not saying the schools cups elsewhere are not important but here it has the status of the untouchable holy grail

As to coaches schools players are prevented from joining clubs and benefitting from the superior coaching.
It doesn't even have to mean playing for them but just going along for training session so that they can make a smooth transition into club rugby.
Here the schools cup is everything even if that means playing the big lumps over the more skilful players, even if that means destroying a players love of the game - do well in the schools cup is everything.

I know of a handful of cases where sixth formers have when threatened with expulsion if they join a club.
Complete unethical, and I suspect illegal, but mark my words it happens.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:57 am

Fair enough. Schools rugby is fairly full on so just surprised that these guys would want to join clubs on top of the fairly intense training and match programs of schools rugby.

Also from the schools point of view I understand it. What if one of their pupils gets concussed in a training session with the club and the school without knowing about it plays that player in a match a few days later. if I was involved in coaching school rugby I wouldn't want my players playing for clubs either.

by geoff999rugby Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:19 pm

To prevent that all it needs is for the clubs to make the schools aware of who trained with them
Preventing pupils playing for clubs is unwarranted, making them choose between the two I understand.

A young lad should be free to play for who he wants - if that means he chooses a club over a school that is the schools hard luck.
Our schools bully and threaten kids, who express an interest in joining clubs, which is totally unacceptable.

When you compound that with the poor level of coaching at the vast majority of schools you go a long way to explaining why we are not in the same league as the other provinces when it comes to developing forwards.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:33 pm

Yeah for me it would have to be one over the other. I'm sure schools are terrified of another concussion death such as this one. I would be too. Dont understand the system in NI well enough but did play some schools there like Portora (which doesnt exist any more) and they were good.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/parents-of-rugby-death-schoolboy-14-critical-of-irfu-concussion-campaign-30552065.html

The solution for me would be to just improve the schoolboy game. Get all the coaches to training camps to standardize the training and best practices.

by The Great Aukster Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:03 pm

It's not just the IRFU that need to change their attitude to concussion. World Rugby won't have a game to administer unless they wake up pdq.

The Ulster School's Cup, which has been played for more than any other rugby trophy in history needs a major overhaul. Schools like Enniskillen Royal (Portora) have half the boys of the big Belfast schools. Inst imported a Kiwi Director of Rugby allegedly on a six figure salary and are now looking for a full time strength and conditioning coach. It's only the big schools can afford such professionals so the number of truly competitive teams is getting fewer and fewer.
Inst in particular exploit the de-powering of the pack under school rules to put out packs made up of 8 flankers. The scrum and lineout are unimportant compared to speed and continuity, so guys like Gilroy and Olding played in the back row at school.
If club sides were allowed in the schools cup then the smaller schools could be competitive (via clubs) and some of those players would also play the occasional senior game under adult rules.

by geoff999rugby Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:30 am

The Great Aukster wrote:It's not just the IRFU that need to change their attitude to concussion. World Rugby won't have a game to administer unless they wake up pdq.

The Ulster School's Cup, which has been played for more than any other rugby trophy in history needs a major overhaul. Schools like Enniskillen Royal (Portora) have half the boys of the big Belfast schools. Inst imported a Kiwi Director of Rugby allegedly on a six figure salary and are now looking for a full time strength and conditioning coach. It's only the big schools can afford such professionals so the number of truly competitive teams is getting fewer and fewer.
Inst in particular exploit the de-powering of the pack under school rules to put out packs made up of 8 flankers. The scrum and lineout are unimportant compared to speed and continuity, so guys like Gilroy and Olding played in the back row at school.
If club sides were allowed in the schools cup then the smaller schools could be competitive (via clubs) and some of those players would also play the occasional senior game under adult rules.

Agree with a lot you say.

However one factual point the Ulster Schools Cup is not the oldest Rugby Union competition (inspite of it being said by commentators here all the time) its the
United Hospitals Challenge Cup which started in 1874 2 years prior to the Ulster Schools Cup

by The Great Aukster Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:It's not just the IRFU that need to change their attitude to concussion. World Rugby won't have a game to administer unless they wake up pdq.

The Ulster School's Cup, which has been played for more than any other rugby trophy in history needs a major overhaul. Schools like Enniskillen Royal (Portora) have half the boys of the big Belfast schools. Inst imported a Kiwi Director of Rugby allegedly on a six figure salary and are now looking for a full time strength and conditioning coach. It's only the big schools can afford such professionals so the number of truly competitive teams is getting fewer and fewer.
Inst in particular exploit the de-powering of the pack under school rules to put out packs made up of 8 flankers. The scrum and lineout are unimportant compared to speed and continuity, so guys like Gilroy and Olding played in the back row at school.
If club sides were allowed in the schools cup then the smaller schools could be competitive (via clubs) and some of those players would also play the occasional senior game under adult rules.

Agree with a lot you say.

However one factual point the Ulster Schools Cup is not the oldest Rugby Union competition (inspite of it being said by commentators here all the time) its the
United Hospitals Challenge Cup which started in 1874 2 years prior to the Ulster Schools Cup

I didn't say the USC was the "oldest", I said it had been played for more than any other rugby trophy. The United Hospitals Cup wasn't played for during the war years and several other occasions, whereas the USC has had a competition every year since it was founded, so factually it has been played for about a dozen times more than the UHCC.

by geoff999rugby Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:10 pm

Fair enough

by Pot Hale Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:50 pm

Why won't more players from other provinces move to Ulster? Is there a cultural problem? Perceived religious/political bias?

by Pete330v2 Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:45 am

Pot Hale wrote:Why won't more players from other provinces move to Ulster? Is there a cultural problem? Perceived religious/political bias?

Partly that perceived bias but moreover the image and perception of Belfast. The media never paints the city in a positive light (very wrongly I might add) and nobody could be blamed for being swayed by what they read or see on the news.

by Sin é Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:31 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Why won't more players from other provinces move to Ulster? Is there a cultural problem? Perceived religious/political bias?

Partly that perceived bias but moreover the image and perception of Belfast. The media never paints the city in a positive light (very wrongly I might add) and nobody could be blamed for being swayed by what they read or see on the news.

Ah, Pete, thats not true. Very hard to paint the bonfires for the 12th in a good light - with their tricolour atop etc. for instance. Why would anyone from the republic want to put up with all of that Poopie, particularly if they are in the eye of the public?

by The Great Aukster Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:34 pm

It's as much to do with the Southern players (friends and families) abhorrence of all things British. Ulster may be an historic province of Ireland like the other three, but it is viewed by many as worse than British and in reality anti-Irish. Southern players are far more likely to feel they have betrayed their heritage if they go north to take the queen's shilling than across to the AP.

by Sin é Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:34 pm

What are you trying to say GA - is it that NI Unionists are more British than the British folk in England?

Whats the difference between the Queen's shilling between Belfast or London/Edinburgh?

You are just wrong about southerner having an abhorrence of all things British - stuff like the Premiership, Cornation Steet etc. are very popular in the republic - in fact I'd say that we have a lot in common.

Personally, I find distasteful the whole orange order stuff and the triumphalism that surrounds it, but by far the most peaceful orange order parade is in the republic.

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