Regional Rugby, NWQs, Development & The Way Forward

Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Not sure where your coming from they feild more welsh qualified players week in week out than most, and were the only 100% welsh qualified side on display on judgement day.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Not sure where your coming from they feild more welsh qualified players week in week out than most, and were the only 100% welsh qualified side on display on judgement day.

SS I just cant see why our regions cannot field all Welsh teams.

I thought the whole point of the regions was to develop Welsh players and the best way to develop players is game time.

Bringing in 4 NWQ's is IMHO exactly opposite to the original regional concept.

As Spiderman pointed out, Dragons often field all Welsh starting 15's I don't think these signings are going to jeopardise Welsh talent coming through, but if these turn out to be good signings the Dragons might be able to compete better in the Rabo which is better for the young Welsh players than their only target all season being to stay ahead of Zebre.

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Well the WRU provide nothing for the cause of Gwent rugby, so boo diddums. That includes funding us, so good luck cutting that.

Stone Motif wrote:

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Well the WRU provide nothing for the cause of Gwent rugby, so boo diddums. That includes funding us, so good luck cutting that.

Maybe downgrading you for e developmental RGC would teach you a lesson...

Alty - they all can feild purely welsh qualifid XVs but they lack strength (going by movemets we are aware of so far)

Owen, L Williams, Davies, S Williams, K Phillips, Priestland, A Davies; R Jones, Owens, Lee, Ball, Kelly, Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker
(bench -: E Phillips, John, G Thomas, Rawlings, D Thomas, G Davies, A Thomas, J Williams)

Fussell, Walker, Beck, Bishop, Habberfield (Dirkson, not yet qualified), Biggar, Webb; Bevington, Hibbard, A Jones, AW Jones, I Evans, J Thomas, Tipuric, R Jones
(bench -: Baldwin, D Jones, Jarvis, Peers, King, Grabham, Morgan, Isaacs)

Halfpenny, Czekaj, O Williams, Evans, Cuthbert, Patchell, L Williams; G Jenkins, Rees, Andrews, Davies, Reed, Navidi, Warburton, Petorious
(Bench -: Breeze, Hobbs, Trevett, Downs, Hamilton, Lewis? , Tovey, Hewitt)

D Evans, Harris, Hughes, Dixon, Prydie, S Jones, Rees; Courdlry, Gustafson, Way, Coombs, A Jones, L Evans, Cudd, Faletau
(bench -: Parry, O Evans, Buck, Groves, I Jones, J Evans, Roblin, Amos)

The truth is that those teams, whilst no bad, are far stronger with their NWQ players added than without. And also there are not enough top quality players playing outside of the country to plug the weaknesses in those squads.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Well the WRU provide nothing for the cause of Gwent rugby, so boo diddums. That includes funding us, so good luck cutting that.

Maybe downgrading you for e developmental RGC would teach you a lesson...

They'd show us. You'd never see the combined might of North Wales resorting to fielding half a team of, say, semi-pro Canadians to even get anywhere tiers below the Dragons. No wait, hang on a minute...

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Alty - they all can feild purely welsh qualifid XVs but they lack strength (going by movemets we are aware of so far)

Owen, L Williams, Davies, S Williams, K Phillips, Priestland, A Davies; R Jones, Owens, Lee, Ball, Kelly, Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker
(bench -: E Phillips, John, G Thomas, Rawlings, D Thomas, G Davies, A Thomas, J Williams)

Fussell, Walker, Beck, Bishop, Habberfield (Dirkson, not yet qualified), Biggar, Webb; Bevington, Hibbard, A Jones, AW Jones, I Evans, J Thomas, Tipuric, R Jones
(bench -: Baldwin, D Jones, Jarvis, Peers, King, Grabham, Morgan, Isaacs)

Halfpenny, Czekaj, O Williams, Evans, Cuthbert, Patchell, L Williams; G Jenkins, Rees, Andrews, Davies, Reed, Navidi, Warburton, Petorious
(Bench -: Breeze, Hobbs, Trevett, Downs, Hamilton, Lewis? , Tovey, Hewitt)

D Evans, Harris, Hughes, Dixon, Prydie, S Jones, Rees; Courdlry, Gustafson, Way, Coombs, A Jones, L Evans, Cudd, Faletau
(bench -: Parry, O Evans, Buck, Groves, I Jones, J Evans, Roblin, Amos)

The truth is that those teams, whilst no bad, are far stronger with their NWQ players added than without. And also there are not enough top quality players playing outside of the country to plug the weaknesses in those squads.

Even a cursory interest in the Welsh Prem would demonstrate numerous examples of Wales under-20's players getting their arses handed to them by experienced semi-pro's, particularly in the tight five. Then there are the cumulative results of the Dragons kindergarten/retirement village to consider this season. But, no, some will continue to demonise the regions and demand they run themselves as businesses, only to rubbish them when they do.

Stone Motif wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

thespreys wrote:Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Well the WRU provide nothing for the cause of Gwent rugby, so boo diddums. That includes funding us, so good luck cutting that.

Maybe downgrading you for e developmental RGC would teach you a lesson...

They'd show us. You'd never see the combined might of North Wales resorting to fielding half a team of, say, semi-pro Canadians to even get anywhere tiers below the Dragons. No wait, hang on a minute...

In their defence they would have the help of Falatau, coombs, Prydie, Evans and Jones who I'm sure the WRU would claim ownership of and send North to help out.

Central Contracts now!

Stone Motif wrote:Central Contracts now!

Not with this regime in charge!!!

Honestly people are having a pop at the Dragons here for signings 4 foreign players. But the truth is ospreys, Scarlets and The Blues have more foreign signings. But
We do have the one of the best developing systems in europe and we are bringing through great talent at each region. A few froeign signings are not going to affect that unless we bring inlike 10 foreign players who will be quaranteed. Just think of it a minute we have talent coming through in all departments.
Scarlets developing players = Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Kirby Myhill, Jake Ball, Joel Galley, Dan Thomas, Aled and Gareth davies, Rhodri Willaims, Steven Shingler,Adam warren, jordan Williams. All 23 or under

Ospreys developing players = Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Nicky Thomas, Lloyd Pears, Dan Baker, Morgan Allen, Sam Lewis, Morgan Allen, Tom Habberfield, Matthew Morgan, Hanno Dirkeson, Tom Grabham (is it) and Eli Walker. All under 23 I think

Cardiff Blues = Owen Willaims, Rhys Patchell, Tom Davies, Cory Hill, Josh Navidi, Luke Hamilton, Lewis Jones, Lloyd Williams, Cory Allen, Harry Robsinson All 22 or younger (maybe not usre about Lloyd)

Dragons = Hallom Amos, Johnathan Evans, Nathan Buck (he is still young mind), Iauen Jones, Lewis Robling, Ashley Smith and Prydie. Again all still under 23

SO It's not like we have a bad young bunch of players coming through all ready, obviously the more the better. But the point is that a few foreign players aren't going to destroy our devlopment system (its just untill they become more experienced and mature).

Jhamer25 wrote:Honestly people are having a pop at the Dragons here for signings 4 foreign players. But the truth is ospreys, Scarlets and The Blues have more foreign signings. But
We do have the one of the best developing systems in europe and we are bringing through great talent at each region. A few froeign signings are not going to affect that unless we bring inlike 10 foreign players who will be quaranteed. Just think of it a minute we have talent coming through in all departments.
Scarlets developing players = Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Kirby Myhill, Jake Ball, Joel Galley, Dan Thomas, Aled and Gareth davies, Rhodri Willaims, Steven Shingler,Adam warren, jordan Williams. All 23 or under

Ospreys developing players = Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Nicky Thomas, Lloyd Pears, Dan Baker, Morgan Allen, Sam Lewis, Morgan Allen, Tom Habberfield, Matthew Morgan, Hanno Dirkeson, Tom Grabham (is it) and Eli Walker. All under 23 I think

Cardiff Blues = Owen Willaims, Rhys Patchell, Tom Davies, Cory Hill, Josh Navidi, Luke Hamilton, Lewis Jones, Lloyd Williams, Cory Allen, Harry Robsinson All 22 or younger (maybe not usre about Lloyd)

Dragons = Hallom Amos, Johnathan Evans, Nathan Buck (he is still young mind), Iauen Jones, Lewis Robling, Ashley Smith and Prydie. Again all still under 23

SO It's not like we have a bad young bunch of players coming through all ready, obviously the more the better. But the point is that a few foreign players aren't going to destroy our devlopment system (its just untill they become more experienced and mature).

If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

The way sportsmen develop is by playing their sport against the best not with the best.

And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Unfortunately Allty the regions sole focus can’t always be about developing welsh players for the national team. They need to be run like businesses, and part of that is producing a product on the field. That is the only way they are going to attract fans/crowds is having a competitive team on the field. That’s the only way they will grow as a business & survive.

In an ideal world the likes of owen Williams would not have signed Leicester tigers, and would have filled a 10 spots for one of the regions. But the harsh reality of it Tigers offered him more money. Regions at present have to be pragmatic on recruitment –reason why the scarlets released two welsh locks in day and reed and replaced with two SA upgrades on less money. Personally I don’t blame the regions at all for recruiting NWQ players they represent on average better value for money and are with the region for the whole season.

But...but...Team Wales! Failing businesses! Welsh youngsters won the Grand Slams!

Returning to the Dragons, interesting that Chris Kirwan's piece in the Argus this morning says the new recruits leave us with two NWQ spots and we are still hopeful on more recruits, if this is true I guess it means the likes of Tuilagi, Chavanga, and Jamie Smith are off.

Alty the other problem is that, despite what the press make out, there are not enough decent welsh player playing elsewhere to fill the spots the NWQs are taking.

Just looking in one position (well i guess two), Deacon Manu, Jacobie Adriaanse, Fau Filise, Tim Ryan, Benoit Bourrust, Demitri Arhip etc. Can you name enough welsh players based elsewhere that are up to the standards? And if you suggest poaching prem players can you suggest where their replacements will come from etc, unless you suggest basically killing the small town leagues (Div 5 west etc).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Alty the other problem is that, despite what the press make out, there are not enough decent welsh player playing elsewhere to fill the spots the NWQs are taking.

Just looking in one position (well i guess two), Deacon Manu, Jacobie Adriaanse, Fau Filise, Tim Ryan, Benoit Bourrust, Demitri Arhip etc. Can you name enough welsh players based elsewhere that are up to the standards? And if you suggest poaching prem players can you suggest where their replacements will come from etc, unless you suggest basically killing the small town leagues (Div 5 west etc).

Very good points SS. An example of this is Gethin Robinson. He's captained Newport a few times this season and is an experienced prop. Should he be elevated to the Dragons squad? The answer is no - he was in the Dragons squad for years but struggled to make an impact so dropped down. Then we had to bring in a NWQ to fill the spot. OK, in this example we have the benefit of hindsight, but the point is that even captains of premiership teams do not automatically make good regional players. There are people with far more experience than us going to games and scouting players - much cheaper to unearth talent in Bedwas than to pay or someone from South Africa, so I'm pretty sure that the regions are actively looking at the premiership - it's just that they're not always finding what they're looking for. This is where the gulf between the prem and pro rugby is evident.

The whole thing with the Dragons is that we need a boost in some form. We're in a vicious circle. Yes, we can put out an all welsh 15, and we often do. But the players we're attracting and who are contracted are not good enough overall as a squad. It's a just a sprinkling of top talent. We struggle to compete on two fronts (league and Amlin). We then get beaten, finish towards the bottom of the league, the decent players then want to leave, fan numbers drop, and we've then got less money to sign decent players so we do even worse, players want to leave, fan numbers drop, etc., and on it goes. That's what has happened it seems since 2005 or so. We've strived for a Welsh only team but it's got us nowhere. No team can compete in the league and/or Europe with just one blood line (I know Welsh isn't a blood line, but for the sake of argument!). Wales is too small a pool to do that. That's why we have the overseas quota, so that it's not too many. And as long as we don;t go over that then I have no problem with bringing in a few boys who can hopefully help us to improve, get a buzz back at RP, which will get some fans back, get us up the league, and help us to attract back the welsh players who do not want to know us at the moment. You can't force players to join us, and it is evident that a lot don't want to. So let's give them a reason to join us.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Stone Motif wrote:But...but...Team Wales! Failing businesses! Welsh youngsters won the Grand Slams!

Returning to the Dragons, interesting that Chris Kirwan's piece in the Argus this morning says the new recruits leave us with two NWQ spots and we are still hopeful on more recruits, if this is true I guess it means the likes of Tuilagi, Chavanga, and Jamie Smith are off.

SM maybe coaching has a huge influence on this.

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Not at all its about surviving and if a region cant it has to go. under.

LP Its really starting to look like we cant sustain 4 regions. Now where have I heard that before

Allty wrote:Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

The majority of NWQ signings recently have not been Journeymen, but are younger players who will be welsh qualified in a few years time. A bit like the Irish and Scots call project players. Take the Scarlets as an example, at the moment their NWQs are Timani (leaving), Manu, Adriaanse, Earle, and Snyman, by halfway through the 2015 season (providing that the squad remains the same) the NWQs will just be Manu, as Adriaanse, Earle and Snyman will be welsh qualified.

If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

Ah but short term we could have bigger squads filled with more talent for each of the 3...

Until we fall away again...

But then we just go to 2 regions and we will have bigger squads filled with more welsh talent...

Until we fall away again...


It's only a matter of time before team Wales is playing in the AP!!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

I dont see it like that at all. There will be no place for outsiders as the squads will be made up of Welsh players.

However if you wish to go down the Footy route I have no problem and teams made up of NWQ's can be the norm.

We have to look at pro sport for what it is i.e a business and to survive businesses have to return a profit.

Regions start money gets invested

Regions struggle The Bank of WRU helps

Regions continue to struggle Bank of WRU says have a bit more

Regions are in big debt go back to bank for more hand outs

Bank of WRU says OK but only if you do this this and this.

Regions either agree to Bank conditions or sink.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

Ah but short term we could have bigger squads filled with more talent for each of the 3...

Until we fall away again...

But then we just go to 2 regions and we will have bigger squads filled with more welsh talent...

Until we fall away again...


It's only a matter of time before team Wales is playing in the AP!!

Exactly

Sadly this is the way rugby in Wales appears to be heading.

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

I dont see it like that at all. There will be no place for outsiders as the squads will be made up of Welsh players.

However if you wish to go down the Footy route I have no problem and teams made up of NWQ's can be the norm.

We have to look at pro sport for what it is i.e a business and to survive businesses have to return a profit.

Regions start money gets invested

Regions struggle The Bank of WRU helps

Regions continue to struggle Bank of WRU says have a bit more

Regions are in big debt go back to bank for more hand outs

Bank of WRU says OK but only if you do this this and this.

Regions either agree to Bank conditions or sink.

Outsiders?

How did you enjoy the last lynching?

Allty wrote:

If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

The way sportsmen develop is by playing their sport against the best not with the best.

Alun Wyn Jones would disagree with you;

“All I can say is we need to find the best fit for Welsh rugby and we can’t dwell on our successes. The best fit not only for the players who are here but also the ones who are coming through, because players don’t just develop through experience.

“Who they are playing alongside matters as well.

“I was very fortunate with the calibre of players who were at the Ospreys when I was coming through.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-alun-wyn-jones-2575587

While we're here dealing with a seemingly 'anti-outsider' opinion here, check this gem from the ponty board about Cardiff RFC

"Always amazes me how Cardiff do so badly in the league when you see their team on paper. Ma'afu must be on at least £80 - £100k a year. I guess you cannot buy team spirit."

This is the type of knowledge that gets floated around...£80-£100k? The guy was playing semi pro rugby in Oz before joining the blues, seems like the appropriate pay rise to professional

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Allty wrote:

If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

The way sportsmen develop is by playing their sport against the best not with the best.

Alun Wyn Jones would disagree with you;

“All I can say is we need to find the best fit for Welsh rugby and we can’t dwell on our successes. The best fit not only for the players who are here but also the ones who are coming through, because players don’t just develop through experience.

“Who they are playing alongside matters as well.

“I was very fortunate with the calibre of players who were at the Ospreys when I was coming through.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-alun-wyn-jones-2575587

I would be surprised if he said anything else.

Anyway I feel this thread is being hijacked by myself and one or two others.

Its possible my views are influenced by my age (70) and a lifetime in amateur and pro sport.

Our regions are now far down the footy route and all I can envisage is tears, and 2 pro sides called Swansea Ospreys and Cardiff.

If youth is not nurtured and developed there is no future.

Youth are being given a chance but I do think people underestimate the importance if have quality experience to bring players on.

The Dragons will still be fielding alot of young welsh talent. Sadly players like Effion Robberts, Gill etc wont come here so we have to look abroad.

- today's paper.. "Toby not for sale" and we are after two more players.

Hughes and Lewis Evans miss the rest of the season.
Really feel for Hughes, this season should of been gis year to get capped.. Instead with injurys it's been a write off.

And when he has played, it's been on the wing.

Allty, youth is being both nurtured and developed. The idea that we can compete by fielding all-Welsh sides is just plain unrealistic, I'm afraid.

gcBlues wrote:While we're here dealing with a seemingly 'anti-outsider' opinion here, check this gem from the ponty board about Cardiff RFC

"Always amazes me how Cardiff do so badly in the league when you see their team on paper. Ma'afu must be on at least £80 - £100k a year. I guess you cannot buy team spirit."

This is the type of knowledge that gets floated around...£80-£100k? The guy was playing semi pro rugby in Oz before joining the blues, seems like the appropriate pay rise to professional

100k

Allty wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Allty wrote:

If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

The way sportsmen develop is by playing their sport against the best not with the best.

Alun Wyn Jones would disagree with you;

“All I can say is we need to find the best fit for Welsh rugby and we can’t dwell on our successes. The best fit not only for the players who are here but also the ones who are coming through, because players don’t just develop through experience.

“Who they are playing alongside matters as well.

“I was very fortunate with the calibre of players who were at the Ospreys when I was coming through.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-alun-wyn-jones-2575587

I would be surprised if he said anything else.

Anyway I feel this thread is being hijacked by myself and one or two others.

Its possible my views are influenced by my age (70) and a lifetime in amateur and pro sport.

Our regions are now far down the footy route and all I can envisage is tears, and 2 pro sides called Swansea Ospreys and Cardiff.

If youth is not nurtured and developed there is no future.

Why would you be surprised because you claimed the complete opposite was true?
You're not hijacking the thread either and your views have nothing to do with age. Peter Thomas is about 70 I believe.
We're are not far down the footy route as we have an agreed limit on NWQ players which IIRC, under the PA, is to be cut further.
Youth IS being nutured and developed and always has been. Some make the grade, but many don't.

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If we went to three regions there'd be even fewer places for the young Welsh players you profess to care about so much.

I dont see it like that at all. There will be no place for outsiders as the squads will be made up of Welsh players.

However if you wish to go down the Footy route I have no problem and teams made up of NWQ's can be the norm.

We have to look at pro sport for what it is i.e a business and to survive businesses have to return a profit.

Regions start money gets invested

Regions struggle The Bank of WRU helps

Regions continue to struggle Bank of WRU says have a bit more

Regions are in big debt go back to bank for more hand outs

Bank of WRU says OK but only if you do this this and this.

Regions either agree to Bank conditions or sink.

Allty, Andrew Hore has a point or two, don't you think?

Ospreys slate Welsh Rugby Union over club links
"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Ospreys disappointed as WRU block match with Tonga
"The money that we would have generated from that game we were going to put back into that team to take it down to Exeter… for some extra player development."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20200617

Allty wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:But...but...Team Wales! Failing businesses! Welsh youngsters won the Grand Slams!

Returning to the Dragons, interesting that Chris Kirwan's piece in the Argus this morning says the new recruits leave us with two NWQ spots and we are still hopeful on more recruits, if this is true I guess it means the likes of Tuilagi, Chavanga, and Jamie Smith are off.

SM maybe coaching has a huge influence on this.

You're right. We could do with a nice influx of SH coaching talent at the regions too, instead of the thankless business of trying to develop the next Welsh coach of Team Wales.

Allty wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Allty wrote:

If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

The way sportsmen develop is by playing their sport against the best not with the best.

Alun Wyn Jones would disagree with you;

“All I can say is we need to find the best fit for Welsh rugby and we can’t dwell on our successes. The best fit not only for the players who are here but also the ones who are coming through, because players don’t just develop through experience.

“Who they are playing alongside matters as well.

“I was very fortunate with the calibre of players who were at the Ospreys when I was coming through.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-alun-wyn-jones-2575587

I would be surprised if he said anything else.

Anyway I feel this thread is being hijacked by myself and one or two others.

Its possible my views are influenced by my age (70) and a lifetime in amateur and pro sport.

Our regions are now far down the footy route and all I can envisage is tears, and 2 pro sides called Swansea Ospreys and Cardiff.

If youth is not nurtured and developed there is no future.

Do you pay attention to U20 rugby? Our teams haven't been world beaters but every year rugby graduates make the step-up to pro rugby. If you watched our youngsters play this season you would have also seen that we have a lot more promising players coming through, not only in the backs but in places we used to struggle in. IE front row. I think you need to relax as you are being overly pessimistic.

George Carlin wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22086537

Good find, Dodger.

So next season, Racing Metro's backline could be:

9. Sebastien Descons
10. Jonny Sexton
11. Juan Imhoff
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Olly Barkley
14. Julien Jane
15. Juan Martin Hernandez

Nice.

Machaneud at 9?
Mujati and Tonga'iuha are also going there apparently. Welcome to Racing Metro, Toulon no2.

Here's a left field way of looking at things: Could it be that some of our young players are leaving Wales not just for the money, but because those around them are not up to scratch. We nurture them into a team surrounded by inexperienced players in the same shoes as them (I'm thinking mostly about the Dragons now). Young players want to play but they also want to learn from the best. We've only got around 25 top players in Wales (Welsh Squad) so the gaps to fill in the regions are too big, especially when the Welsh players are away. I bet young players look to England and France and see the chance to play with players from all over the world, not just academy boys they've been with since they were 10.

That's why, for me, brining overseas players in is a good thing - it gives the players that outside influence, makes them feel like part of a club, a group of players recruited for their talents, rather than part of a production line which our regions are becoming.

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Not at all its about surviving and if a region cant it has to go. under.

LP Its really starting to look like we cant sustain 4 regions. Now where have I heard that before

Allty, at the risk of wasting my time in asking you to write a sensible post, can you categorically state why you think the regions have 'failed'? You are clearly in the Team Wales at the expense of all else camp, so I can't get my head around you calling them failures when they have pretty well succeeded at their main purpose as you would define it, ie to provide players for Team Wales.

Do you pay attention to U20 rugby? Our teams haven't been world beaters but every year rugby graduates make the step-up to pro rugby. If you watched our youngsters play this season you would have also seen that we have a lot more promising players coming through, not only in the backs but in places we used to struggle in. IE front row. I think you need to relax as you are being overly pessimistic. [/quote]

Yes I watch and I see the talent year after year Where do many of these guys have to go to get important game time.

Stone Motif wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Not at all its about surviving and if a region cant it has to go. under.

LP Its really starting to look like we cant sustain 4 regions. Now where have I heard that before

Allty, at the risk of wasting my time in asking you to write a sensible post, can you categorically state why you think the regions have 'failed'? You are clearly in the Team Wales at the expense of all else camp, so I can't get my head around you calling them failures when they have pretty well succeeded at their main purpose as you would define it, ie to provide players for Team Wales.

I'm nowhere near Team Wales

I am a life long supporter of all youth and chances for our youth and have been and will remain against the import of players at the expense of youngsters from any country.

Regarding the regions

They fail on the aspects pointed out in the recent in depth PWC reports.

They are losing money hand over fist

They are failing to keep star players.

They generally have second rate coaching set ups.

They are first and foremost businesses who need to make a profit to survive.

Allty, you say the regions are failing to keep star players; if all our internationals stayed in Wales and all the ones playing abroad came back, wouldn't that mean even fewer opportunites for young Welsh players coming through?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Allty, you say the regions are failing to keep star players; if all our internationals stayed in Wales and all the ones playing abroad came back, wouldn't that mean even fewer opportunites for young Welsh players coming through?

No it would mean far more game time when the stars are with the Welsh set up.

Allty wrote:They are losing money hand over fist

They are failing to keep star players.

I believe the blues & ospreys are looking to break even this year, making profits out of rugby teams is very rare...even in england there's only a few who do.

With regard to the second point, How are they 'failing to keep star players'? You accuse them of losing money 'hand over fist' yet say they're failing to keep star players. Guys like Jamie, George and Phillips do not come cheap so to keep them on board would mean increased wages and more 'hand over fist' losses. You also seem to forget/ignore that players themselves make the decision, the blues offered a contract to jamie roberts which would have been big big bucks...but he turned it down, is that the blues fault?

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Allty, you say the regions are failing to keep star players; if all our internationals stayed in Wales and all the ones playing abroad came back, wouldn't that mean even fewer opportunites for young Welsh players coming through?

No it would mean far more game time when the stars are with the Welsh set up.

What happens when the welsh players come back? They're back warming the bench, or if they've performed you have a big time welsh player on a hefty wage warming the bench and keeping the place from another potential up and coming player.

Allty wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Allty wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Not at all its about surviving and if a region cant it has to go. under.

LP Its really starting to look like we cant sustain 4 regions. Now where have I heard that before

Allty, at the risk of wasting my time in asking you to write a sensible post, can you categorically state why you think the regions have 'failed'? You are clearly in the Team Wales at the expense of all else camp, so I can't get my head around you calling them failures when they have pretty well succeeded at their main purpose as you would define it, ie to provide players for Team Wales.

I'm nowhere near Team Wales

I am a life long supporter of all youth and chances for our youth and have been and will remain against the import of players at the expense of youngsters from any country.

Regarding the regions

They fail on the aspects pointed out in the recent in depth PWC reports.

They are losing money hand over fist

They are failing to keep star players.

They generally have second rate coaching set ups.

They are first and foremost businesses who need to make a profit to survive.

Right! Now you're somewhere close to the correct page. Stick with me now...

How do you propose the regions increase their revenue?

Allty wrote:


Do you pay attention to U20 rugby? Our teams haven't been world beaters but every year rugby graduates make the step-up to pro rugby. If you watched our youngsters play this season you would have also seen that we have a lot more promising players coming through, not only in the backs but in places we used to struggle in. IE front row. I think you need to relax as you are being overly pessimistic.

Yes I watch and I see the talent year after year Where do many of these guys have to go to get important game time. [/quote]

At their regions? LV= games?
Of the top of my head, I seem to remember that last season Cardiff Blues fielded predominantly Welsh youngsters in this competition initially and got smashed.