Regional Rugby, NWQs, Development & The Way Forward

by thespreys Tue 09 Apr 2013, 4:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

by Allty Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:05 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Allty wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And being beaten week in, week out, how would that help these young Welsh players?

Maybe so but that is what pro sport is all about.

The regions have already failed with expensive NWQ's how are journey men going to change this.

If we cant win with 4 regions maybe 2 or 3 is the answer. Following the regional concept also developing our youth.

Pro sport is all about losing?

Teams and players can often learn more from defeat than from victory, but when you lose match after match, that becomes deeply demoralising and it becomes harder to turn a corner. This season the Dragons have had a few trouncings, but there have also been half-a-dozen or so games that we lost narrowly. If these four players can help us turn those narrow defeats into wins next season, then that will benefit the many young Welsh players we have.

Not at all its about surviving and if a region cant it has to go. under.

LP Its really starting to look like we cant sustain 4 regions. Now where have I heard that before
Allty, at the risk of wasting my time in asking you to write a sensible post, can you categorically state why you think the regions have 'failed'? You are clearly in the Team Wales at the expense of all else camp, so I can't get my head around you calling them failures when they have pretty well succeeded at their main purpose as you would define it, ie to provide players for Team Wales.

I'm nowhere near Team Wales

I am a life long supporter of all youth and chances for our youth and have been and will remain against the import of players at the expense of youngsters from any country.

Regarding the regions

They fail on the aspects pointed out in the recent in depth PWC reports.

They are losing money hand over fist

They are failing to keep star players.

They generally have second rate coaching set ups.

They are first and foremost businesses who need to make a profit to survive.
Right! Now you're somewhere close to the correct page. Stick with me now...

How do you propose the regions increase their revenue?

SM Its a huge job for them nay massive and its going to get even more difficult if Cardiff FC get promoted.

I'll try but all are in Catch 22

All have got to start winning and 2 out of 4 have to get further in the HC/Amlin or their new equivalent than round 1

Newport firstly need to hold out an Olive Branch to everyone they have upset in Gwent and invest in quality coaching staff before players

Cardiff new coaching staff before new players. Again serious Olive branch stuff with the valleys

Ospreys need to fight for the fans lost to footy but aint going to succeed unless they do better in Europe

The Scarlets have the biggest problem as the support base is thin and spread out

Both the WRU and regions need to look up the word Nepotism

The regions need to look afresh at Central Contracts

The Ego's need to be put to sleep Axes buried and meaningful discussions take place between both parties

European rugby needs a complete season restructure

Until pretty much all of the above is in place the game in Wales will slowly but surely decline

by thebluesmancometh Wed 10 Apr 2013, 4:47 pm

Allty

What on the good lords earth are you on about mun!!!

According to you to work well the Blues have to...

Win the HC or at least get to the knockouts, while reducing the wage bill!!!

They should hold out an olive branch to their historical rivals, whilst making friends with the WRU who put both rivals in this position!!!

They need to sign welsh only players such as Roberts, Gill, and Phillips to ensure young players like Hobbs, Allen and Williams get game time... while trimming the wage bill!!!

They have to convince the ERB to overhaul the euro comp!!!

Sack their owner!!!

Change the coaching staff!!!

Then look up the word nepotism!!

What will they do after lunch... Laugh

by wales606 Wed 10 Apr 2013, 4:56 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:

What will they do after lunch...

Set up a very profitable consultance firm?

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 4:58 pm

Allty, thanks for the response. I'm afraid though, it's fair to say you haven't got a blydi clue.

Allty wrote:
SM Its a huge job for them nay massive and its going to get even more difficult if Cardiff FC get promoted.

It's even more difficult whilst Roger Lewis and Team Wales are the be-all and end-all

Allty wrote:

All have got to start winning and 2 out of 4 have to get further in the HC/Amlin or their new equivalent than round 1

How do you propose the regions manage this feat whilst they cannot realistically prepare in any meaningful way for specific rounds of the group stages due to the fourth international of the autumn series and the lead-in time demanded by the WRU for the six nations?

Allty wrote:
Newport firstly need to hold out an Olive Branch to everyone they have upset in Gwent and invest in quality coaching staff before players

Leaving aside the default and wholly nonsensical demonisation of Newport and the fact that, say Bedwas have rocketed up the Premiership largely because they've been packed with fringe Dragons players, who do you think had the final say in appointing (you'll like this) home-grown, young Welsh coach Darren Edwards?

Please list the Welsh alternatives we should look at. This is before we start on about the WRU's insistence that the regions stay well clear of forging greater links with their Premiership sides (unless Andrew Hore is a liar), and the other fact that not one club in the British Isles, not one, built a significant support base out of nothing. It requires significant private sector investment. Greater support from Gwent is peanuts compared to what investment the board could put in were the 50% WRU ownership, given up by the part of Gwent that reneged on the whole shebang, resolved. It is lack of success, directly attributable to the WRU, that keeps supporters away from the Dragons. If they were winning the Heineken Cup they could be called the Clart Murrenger Black and Amber Chartist Dave Paraders, and from across 'Gwent' would be down there on match day in their droves.

Allty wrote:
Cardiff new coaching staff before new players. Again serious Olive branch stuff with the valleys

On we go to the second mantra of te disenfranchised. Are we still talking Welsh coaches only here as per your player policy? Refresh my memory, what did Ponty tell them when offered the 'olive branch' of a Blues fixture at Sardis?

Allty wrote:
Ospreys need to fight for the fans lost to footy but aint going to succeed unless they do better in Europe

Again, nonsense given the over-riding demands of Team Wales. International success here in Walesspecifically precludes this from becoming a reality. Winning in Europe at club level is harder than winning an increasingly turgid six nations.

Allty wrote:
The Scarlets have the biggest problem as the support base is thin and spread out

Irrelevant, TV and competition money drives the finances of pro rugby and the Scarlets tend to have bigger crowds than the denser regions to the east.

Allty wrote:
Both the WRU and regions need to look up the word Nepotism

Presumably this is in reference to coaching appointments, so again, please list realistic home grown alternativs for all four regions.

Allty wrote:
The regions need to look afresh at Central Contracts

You just said we need to do better in Europe, so don't be absurd. WRU refuse to discuss this with an independent arbitrator and they are offering no more money, so a non-starter. Pro Team Rogerists trot this out as some sort of panacea, until the WRU put some meat on the bones they are just two meaningless words.

Allty wrote:
The Ego's need to be put to sleep Axes buried and meaningful discussions take place between both parties

Regions have offered to do this at the PRGB, over to you Rog

Allty wrote:
European rugby needs a complete season restructure

actually a sensible suggestion but wholly beyond the remit of the regions to solve, particularly given the WRU stranglehold.

Allty wrote:
Until pretty much all of the above is in place the game in Wales will slowly but surely decline

Thanks a bunch, WRU. Still, at least we beat the English eh?

by thebluesmancometh Wed 10 Apr 2013, 5:03 pm

Stone

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Apr 2013, 5:54 pm

With the recent news of the WRU/RRW issues, George North's sale, Lydiate and Roberts move to france & four NWQ signings being announced, I thought a thread was due for the subject of the Regions, NWQs etc.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Apr 2013, 6:25 pm

Jhamer25 wrote:
If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

Yes but allty not all young developing players will play for the welsh iternational team mind.
Our system is great and as I said before these signings are NOT going to prevent players coming through, they are just going to help us whilst they do

by LordDowlais Wed 10 Apr 2013, 7:07 pm

I have tried to give this thread a wide birth as I have very strong feelings on the issue and I know 99% of the people on this thread will not agree with me and get truly peeved with what I am going to say, but hear goes anyway.

I think that the regions are taking the urine with the substandard NWQ players they are signing with the money they are having off the WRU, and before you all jump down my throat, I know it is money firstly earned by the regions, but what the feck is going on when the Cardiff Blues are signing somebody like Campese Ma'fu when they have just as good forwards playing in the academies and in the Welsh prem. I look across the Irish sea and see them only having three or four non qualified players in their teams, but they seem to do better. Each region must have at least six to eight NWQ players in their squads when in reality there should only be about three or four, if the NWQ players we were bringing here were any good, they would either be picked up by the richer clubs in Europe or being given incentives to stay where they are.

Look it is not as if we are bringing in quality, we are bringing in players either we have not heard anything about or are not wanted by their clubs in the first place, Tuilagi at the Dragons, Stowers at the Ospreys, now Tibaldi, Timani at the Scarlets, that Moldovan forward at the Blues, this is just not right, I understand the need to beef up the squad for when internationals are away but don't just take on the first polynesian that is available when there are just as good players in the academies, what the Dragons have just done is unforgivable, Burton has not offered anything firstly to Australia so he went to Italy, then as it seems he is not worth keeping there and now he is at the Dragons keeping out Robling or Steffan Jones. Anyway, I could go on and on about this for ages so I am just going to leave it there for now.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Apr 2013, 7:29 pm

Lord to be honest I agree to a point about the grab an islander habbit, I can not think of a time when the Scarlets haven't had one (Finau, Havili'i, Afaeki, Manu, Fa'amatuinu, Iongi, Timani), it is almost a must have for our squad somehow, so seeing as Timani is leaving, what are the odds we get in a big hard wing/centre islander in.

by LordDowlais Wed 10 Apr 2013, 7:39 pm

I do not mind to many NWQ Scarlet, but they must be quality, and they must have something to offer, not just squad fillers and unknown players we have never heard of.

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 8:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I have tried to give this thread a wide birth as I have very strong feelings on the issue and I know 99% of the people on this thread will not agree with me and get truly peeved with what I am going to say, but hear goes anyway.

I think that the regions are taking the urine with the substandard NWQ players they are signing with the money they are having off the WRU, and before you all jump down my throat, I know it is money firstly earned by the regions, but what the feck is going on when the Cardiff Blues are signing somebody like Campese Ma'fu when they have just as good forwards playing in the academies and in the Welsh prem.

By all means, name them. Have you seen how our Academy players and semi-pros go even against the English CHampionship and Irish A Teams?

Lord Dowlais wrote: I look across the Irish sea and see them only having three or four non qualified players in their teams, but they seem to do better. Each region must have at least six to eight NWQ players in their squads when in reality there should only be about three or four, if the NWQ players we were bringing here were any good, they would either be picked up by the richer clubs in Europe or being given incentives to stay where they are.

This is why people get peeved, Lord D. You've taken this entirely out of context when you aren't comparing like for like. The Irish get far greater core funding from their union (as a pose to the basically zilch our regions get), and that's before we start talking about the 'richer clubs in Europe'. They also get the tax break which helps retain their best players. So, basically, your moan is what, that tems funded up to three times as well as our regions tend to sing all the best players? Quelle surprise as they say in Toulon.

Lord Dowlais wrote:Look it is not as if we are bringing in quality, we are bringing in players either we have not heard anything about or are not wanted by their clubs in the first place, Tuilagi at the Dragons, Stowers at the Ospreys, now Tibaldi, Timani at the Scarlets, that Moldovan forward at the Blues, this is just not right, I understand the need to beef up the squad for when internationals are away but don't just take on the first polynesian that is available when there are just as good players in the academies,

Again, it should be no problem to name these players then? I'm all ears.

Lord Dowlais wrote: what the Dragons have just done is unforgivable, Burton has not offered anything firstly to Australia so he went to Italy, then as it seems he is not worth keeping there and now he is at the Dragons keeping out Robling or Steffan Jones. Anyway, I could go on and on about this for ages so I am just going to leave it there for now.

Burton may not be everyone's cup of tea but he has certainly achieved more in the Rabo than either of the young fly halves you mention. Both of whom, incidently, are barely out of the Academy and prone to bad, bad games. One of these players is also a centre, probably! So apart from the squad reasoning, you think it's unforgiveable that the Dragons have signed an experienced No 10 to help them along? Jesus wept, given the funding constraints above who should they have signed?

Regions can't do right for doing wrong, honestly. Give me strength.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:05 pm

Stone, going by the accademy thing that Lord mentioned, I think the Scarlets have a few kids in the accademy like Sion Bennett or Dan Thomas who could have had a go in the backrow instead if Timani, or the Jones brothers who could have filled in at lock. I am actually a fan of Sione Timani and believe he is a good strong hard working player, but he has really ended up as a bench option, so I can understand calls for accademy lads instead.

Likewise Morgan Allen is a better option than Stowers. And possibly Webb, Grabham, Habberfield and maybe Isaacs are better choices than Tito Tibaldi.

by Allty Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:11 pm

Now we are starting to talk sense.

Firstly not all guys coming out of the Academies will make the Welsh team but a number will become very good squad members or solid journey men.

Again some will fall by the wayside and not make regional grade.

But all deserve their chance and whilst the regions keep on bringing in second rate SH players our youth will not have its chance

by Allty Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:19 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:
If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

Yes but allty not all young developing players will play for the welsh iternational team mind.
Our system is great and as I said before these signings are NOT going to prevent players coming through, they are just going to help us whilst they do

SS They are certainly not going to stop potential internationals coming through but they will block the guys who are not going to be stars but will, given game time become honest regional players.

Maybe I should have made this point sooner

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:21 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stone, going by the accademy thing that Lord mentioned, I think the Scarlets have a few kids in the accademy like Sion Bennett or Dan Thomas who could have had a go in the backrow instead if Timani, or the Jones brothers who could have filled in at lock. I am actually a fan of Sione Timani and believe he is a good strong hard working player, but he has really ended up as a bench option, so I can understand calls for accademy lads instead.

Likewise Morgan Allen is a better option than Stowers. And possibly Webb, Grabham, Habberfield and maybe Isaacs are better choices than Tito Tibaldi.

Spidey all the O's mentioned feature regularly for their region. It is a squad game, and with the LV and Premiership please don't try to tell me these guys are scratching their arses all weekend and not playing any rugby.

If they are featuring in the Premiership regularly, why are the O's region clubs all languishing at the bottom of the league with this raft of full pro-league ready kids and semi-pros ready to step up?

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:25 pm

Allty wrote:Now we are starting to talk sense.

Firstly not all guys coming out of the Academies will make the Welsh team but a number will become very good squad members or solid journey men.

Again some will fall by the wayside and not make regional grade.

But all deserve their chance and whilst the regions keep on bringing in second rate SH players our youth will not have its chance

Utter nonsense. In a squad game over the season there is ample opportunity for young players to play. The regions have an excellent record of giving youth its chance. It this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be watching Wales winning games in the six nations.

by Jhamer25 Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:26 pm

Yes but Lord Dowlais and Allty you are missing the point. Here is an example of mine right
The Ospreys are leading in the devlopment of props witht the likes of nicky smith, nicky thomas, dan suter, marc thomas right. So they bring in Dimitri arhip who has impressed me so far when he has come of the bench and really how much moeny is he costing the spreys (really good move by them) he will be here for another season or 2 at most as the spreys already have so much depth at prop with jarvis and duncan. Also can see stowers leaving them next seaoson know allen and baker are coming through with bearmen and thomas to help them along. Stowers has helped them and now he will be jetted of somewhere else.
Cambell Johnson will be gone as he was only signed to help them out through a few rounds of the heineken (fair does to him he did a good job mind).
So next season that will leave Arhip and Tibaldi as Dirksen and will be welsh qualified.
At scarlets we dropeed 2 welsh locks and pawned them off and brought in 2 foreigners. Day and reed were good at best ok and it is as far as they were going to develop. Bringing in Snyman and Earle was a great move as they are much better and cheaper, also with Jake Ball who is a great prospect for wales from australia in my eyes was one of the best sigings we could have made, better than siging someone like Paul O'Connell becuase he is qualified for Wales, costs no money and was a rising star in Australia (know thats a signing). Earle and Snyman can do a job know that Ball, Galley and Carwyn Jones are comeing through.
Same with Adriannse who hasn't impressed me much yet and hasn't lived up to my expectations because I watched him last year for the lions and he was such a dominent scrummager. Although he did destroy the munster srum in that great win away.
But he will do for know as samson is coming along well and adrainnse is a good back of for him becasue sadly we can't develop 3 great tighhead props like Adam Jones. So what do we do bring in a decent foreigner to help us out.

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:27 pm

Allty wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:
If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

Yes but allty not all young developing players will play for the welsh iternational team mind.
Our system is great and as I said before these signings are NOT going to prevent players coming through, they are just going to help us whilst they do

SS They are certainly not going to stop potential internationals coming through but they will block the guys who are not going to be stars but will, given game time become honest regional players.

Maybe I should have made this point sooner

We've established you don't get the financial aspects, I guess we can add the development of rugby professionals to the list too Rolling Eyes

by Guest Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:29 pm

If the welsh players are as good as you say then they'll oust the foreign imports. But they need that competition, otherwise they just get first team games regardless of how good they are. They would then become complacent. Also, without competition for places (if we kept it 'all welsh') we'd drive up the price/cost of welsh players. If we had to select only welsh players then rubbish ones would suddenly become desirable in an attempt to fill the squads and they'd be able to name their price. It's sort of what we've got at the Dragons - no decent welsh player wants to come here so we're full of not quite good enough young Welsh players, and then we're criticised for being down the bottom of the league, and we're told we should be disbanded.

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:37 pm

Griff wrote:If the welsh players are as good as you say then they'll oust the foreign imports. But they need that competition, otherwise they just get first team games regardless of how good they are. They would then become complacent. Also, without competition for places (if we kept it 'all welsh') we'd drive up the price/cost of welsh players. If we had to select only welsh players then rubbish ones would suddenly become desirable in an attempt to fill the squads and they'd be able to name their price. It's sort of what we've got at the Dragons - no decent welsh player wants to come here so we're full of not quite good enough young Welsh players, and then we're criticised for being down the bottom of the league, and we're told we should be disbanded.

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:44 pm

Another thing - the WRU, who would clearly rather the regions look to develop as many Team Wales candidates as possible at the expense of their own success - set the limit to 6 NWQ players a season.

That's the governing body, the ones who don't give a tuppeny toss over the state of the regional game as long as they've got something for the big lasses in the cowboy hats to fawn over, who link part of the little funding they actually deign to provide the regions to their agreement to this union-set restriction WRU, ladies and germs. They're as happy with foreign players plying their trade in Wales as Nick Griffin is. If it' good enough for them, it's good enough for anybody surely?

by Guest Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:49 pm

I agree stone. Also, as 50% owners of the Dragons then surely they would have to agree the Dragons 4 signings in some way. If they didn't like it then it probably wouldn't have happened (although that then suggests that they have some sort of active role in the Dragons, which we know is not true so I may be wrong!).

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 10 Apr 2013, 9:54 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stone, going by the accademy thing that Lord mentioned, I think the Scarlets have a few kids in the accademy like Sion Bennett or Dan Thomas who could have had a go in the backrow instead if Timani, or the Jones brothers who could have filled in at lock. I am actually a fan of Sione Timani and believe he is a good strong hard working player, but he has really ended up as a bench option, so I can understand calls for accademy lads instead.

Likewise Morgan Allen is a better option than Stowers. And possibly Webb, Grabham, Habberfield and maybe Isaacs are better choices than Tito Tibaldi.

Spidey all the O's mentioned feature regularly for their region. It is a squad game, and with the LV and Premiership please don't try to tell me these guys are scratching their arses all weekend and not playing any rugby.

If they are featuring in the Premiership regularly, why are the O's region clubs all languishing at the bottom of the league with this raft of full pro-league ready kids and semi-pros ready to step up?

All those Ospreys lads are getting game time now, but with Beck and Bish fit I cannot see Isaacs being selected as a centre, and when Walker and Dirkson return I doubt Grabham or Habberfield will get on the wing much. Meaning they will most likely be bench warming at best, providing Tito Tibaldi doesn't get that scrum half bench space (assuming nipper and spratt/john get the other bench space). So imo Tibaldi is an unnecessary luxury that may slow progress of others without offering too much in return.

by Stone Motif Wed 10 Apr 2013, 10:45 pm

So your essentially saying that the problem isn't the NWQs then it's that the O's are developing too many scrum halves. Be sure to let Andrew Hore know, he's been mentioning the cost of the Academy a lot recently. Anyway, sticking to the point, Griff hit the nail on the head. If these players can displace the more experienced guy above them, then they earn the place on merit. If they can't, they're not good enough. With time, they might be, but unfortunately the business of pro sport is not that forgiving that such things can be left to chance. As old Allty went to pains to point out, the Welsh public expect a region to lift the Euro Cup yesterday. The whole argument that the regions are failing in their duty to develop players is absurd, whichever way you look at it. They're not failing to develop young players.

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 7:11 am

Stone Motif wrote:So your essentially saying that the problem isn't the NWQs then it's that the O's are developing too many scrum halves. Be sure to let Andrew Hore know, he's been mentioning the cost of the Academy a lot recently. Anyway, sticking to the point, Griff hit the nail on the head. If these players can displace the more experienced guy above them, then they earn the place on merit. If they can't, they're not good enough. With time, they might be, but unfortunately the business of pro sport is not that forgiving that such things can be left to chance. As old Allty went to pains to point out, the Welsh public expect a region to lift the Euro Cup yesterday. The whole argument that the regions are failing in their duty to develop players is absurd, whichever way you look at it. They're not failing to develop young players.

You have completely misread or misunderstood my posts. If you read again you will see that my comment was at least 2 regions should get out of the HC pool stage.

Your reply earlier misrepresents the points I make.

Back to your recent post

How on earth can an academy develop too many scrum halve or players in other positions.

Every year there will be a different range of talent coming through.

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 7:14 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:Now we are starting to talk sense.

Firstly not all guys coming out of the Academies will make the Welsh team but a number will become very good squad members or solid journey men.

Again some will fall by the wayside and not make regional grade.

But all deserve their chance and whilst the regions keep on bringing in second rate SH players our youth will not have its chance

Utter nonsense. In a squad game over the season there is ample opportunity for young players to play. The regions have an excellent record of giving youth its chance. It this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be watching Wales winning games in the six nations.

Thats why Mike Phillips sat on the bench at the O's week after week me years back.

by Stone Motif Thu 11 Apr 2013, 8:26 am

Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:So your essentially saying that the problem isn't the NWQs then it's that the O's are developing too many scrum halves. Be sure to let Andrew Hore know, he's been mentioning the cost of the Academy a lot recently. Anyway, sticking to the point, Griff hit the nail on the head. If these players can displace the more experienced guy above them, then they earn the place on merit. If they can't, they're not good enough. With time, they might be, but unfortunately the business of pro sport is not that forgiving that such things can be left to chance. As old Allty went to pains to point out, the Welsh public expect a region to lift the Euro Cup yesterday. The whole argument that the regions are failing in their duty to develop players is absurd, whichever way you look at it. They're not failing to develop young players.

You have completely misread or misunderstood my posts. If you read again you will see that my comment was at least 2 regions should get out of the HC pool stage.

Your reply earlier misrepresents the points I make.

Back to your recent post

How on earth can an academy develop too many scrum halve or players in other positions.

Every year there will be a different range of talent coming through.

It's you missing the point me old chum. The plethora of young scrum halves at the O's were held up as an example of the regions not developing players for some crazy reason. This at a region where the first choice nine was a NWQ player Doh

I'll ask again though won't expect an answer, how do the two regions you've arbitrarily decided should be getting out of the group stages do so given the monopolisation of their players in the midst of the competition, by a competitor organisation that doesn't contribute anything meaningful to their development, or adequately recompense the region for the time they're away? Let me guess, chuck a load of kids in off the bench, because Wales won a GS so we must be the best at everything...

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 8:53 am

Please dont answer your own questions with wild guesses.

My interest is the youth of Welsh sport not the ambitions of wealthy men.

Where you get the rubbish about my views on Slams from beats me.

I have not decided anything I have made suggestions about the way forward.

The first being that all sides act like grown up professional organisations not kids in a playground.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 11 Apr 2013, 8:56 am

Right, I'm trying to make sense of this: Allty (and Dowlais), am I right in summarising that you want the regions to be successful, but only if they're full of Welsh players? Is that right?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:01 am

Stone, I think you miss read my post regarding the Ospreys scrum halves, at no point did I say that it was their regional system failing to develope, or even over-developing (and anyhow Isaacs is a ringer really, and you should know that), I was saying that their was no need to bring in Tito Tibaldi as the Ospreys already have better options there. Also just thinking Tibaldi may still feature in the Italina international squad over the AIs and 6Ns, so may not be available for 8-10 weeks of the season either.

I'll quote the posts, in the order that I was responding to see if that clears it up for you

Lord Dowlais wrote:Look it is not as if we are bringing in quality, we are bringing in players either we have not heard anything about or are not wanted by their clubs in the first place, Tuilagi at the Dragons, Stowers at the Ospreys, now Tibaldi, Timani at the Scarlets, that Moldovan forward at the Blues, this is just not right, I understand the need to beef up the squad for when internationals are away but don't just take on the first polynesian that is available when there are just as good players in the academies,

Stone Motif wrote:Again, it should be no problem to name these players then? I'm all ears.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stone, going by the accademy thing that Lord mentioned, I think the Scarlets have a few kids in the accademy like Sion Bennett or Dan Thomas who could have had a go in the backrow instead if Timani, or the Jones brothers who could have filled in at lock. I am actually a fan of Sione Timani and believe he is a good strong hard working player, but he has really ended up as a bench option, so I can understand calls for accademy lads instead.

Likewise Morgan Allen is a better option than Stowers. And possibly Webb, Grabham, Habberfield and maybe Isaacs are better choices than Tito Tibaldi.

Stone Motif wrote:Spidey all the O's mentioned feature regularly for their region. It is a squad game, and with the LV and Premiership please don't try to tell me these guys are scratching their arses all weekend and not playing any rugby.

If they are featuring in the Premiership regularly, why are the O's region clubs all languishing at the bottom of the league with this raft of full pro-league ready kids and semi-pros ready to step up?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:All those Ospreys lads are getting game time now, but with Beck and Bish fit I cannot see Isaacs being selected as a centre, and when Walker and Dirkson return I doubt Grabham or Habberfield will get on the wing much. Meaning they will most likely be bench warming at best, providing Tito Tibaldi doesn't get that scrum half bench space (assuming nipper and spratt/john get the other bench space). So imo Tibaldi is an unnecessary luxury that may slow progress of others without offering too much in return.

The whole thing was that NWQs have a real use at the regions, however it is all about signing them wisely, and in areas that you need them. If you have 4 good scrum halves that ware welsh qualified, 1 capped, 2 recent under 20s RWC semi-fianlists, and 1 a 7s RWC cahmpion, then why do you need to sign a second/third choice from Zebre? I would be saying exactly the same if the scarlets were to announce they had signed Paddy Wallace in the centre (as we are overloaded with centres) etc.

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:04 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Right, I'm trying to make sense of this: Allty (and Dowlais), am I right in summarising that you want the regions to be successful, but only if they're full of Welsh players? Is that right?

I would love that to be the case. It works in the SH why not in Wales

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:07 am

Okay then. The Dragons this season have often fielded all-Welsh or Wales-qualified players, but have been unsuccessful (to put it mildly). Should season-ticket holders like me be happy with seeing our side lose because we're being noble and fielding Welsh players?

by Kingshu Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:11 am

Oh man, I normally like the , how the regions could be improved stuff, but at 2 pages, I won't catch up, but I think I got the jest.

For me NWQ players are important, Ulster are the best example of the improvement quality NI/WQ players can add. they bring in a winning mindset and add experience to teams when the internationals are missing. Has Gilroy learned more playing in a team that reached advances in tournaments, and playing in pressure games against quality teams, and regularally winning, or would he have learned more sitting mid-table if Ulster had no NIQ players? Its simple quality NWQ players add to a team, and bring players on, they may take th eplace that a young Welsh lad could be getting gametime from, but this is more than offset by helping the others develop and the team playing to a better standard.
If a NWQ does not add enough to the team, then they should be removed.

There is no reason for the regions to have more NWQ players than the Provinces NIQ players, the IRFU is reducing it to 3/4 per team (Connacht allowed more).

WRU should set limit and impose it, not anything like only 4 in matchday squad meaning you can have loads and rotate them, just an out and out limit say 5/6.

The WRU want to add central contracts, and it does make sense that the WRU pay the wages of the players they call up and use most. However they cannot do this by cutting the money they grant the regions as the PWC report says.

They have to add central contracts on top of what they already issue to the regions, I think the WRU will say they will continue to fund 3 of the teams to the same level, and one at a lower level and introduce central contracts and have the internationals spread over the 3 regions.

Basically if this happen it would mean that say next year Cardiff Blues would not have to pay for;
Matthew Rees
Gethin Jenkins
Sam Warburton
Alex Cuthbert
Leigh Halfpenny
(maybe a few others, depending on number of central contracts issued by WRU)

Depending if they have to contribute a portion or nothing at all to the central contract, this would free up these players wages (or most off) to add to the squad depth of the team, but they would have to reduce thier NWQ players as well, and could recuit better ones.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:19 am

Kingshu - the WRU have set a limit, we are allowed up to 8 NWQs in total (although a max of 6 capped), in the full regional squad. I believe the general attitude now is to try and sign uncapped NWQs as if they are any good, by the time their contract is renewed they will be welsh qualified and no longer count against the cap, bit like the project players at the provinces.

by Kingshu Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:24 am

Cheers ScarletSpiderman,
I though it was to do with matchday squad.

Up to 6 + 2 projects does seam like alot to me though, I'd say the WRU would want this reduced.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:30 am

Kingshu - I think it will be reduced slowly as NWQs become WQ, I think Paterson and Petorious at the Blues are now WQ, Dirkson at the Ospreys is rapidly heading to being WQ (some visa issue meant he serves 5 yrs??) as is Jamie Smith at the Dragons, and the likes of Earle and Snyman will be WQ pre RWC2015. So i think maybe by that heading towards the RWC it will be reduced.

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:36 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kingshu - I think it will be reduced slowly as NWQs become WQ, I think Paterson and Petorious at the Blues are now WQ, Dirkson at the Ospreys is rapidly heading to being WQ (some visa issue meant he serves 5 yrs??) as is Jamie Smith at the Dragons, and the likes of Earle and Snyman will be WQ pre RWC2015. So i think maybe by that heading towards the RWC it will be reduced.

Why dont we just import the AB Oz and Bok under 18's and wait until they become WQ. I think the qualification rules need changing big time

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:45 am

Allty so you just want pure bred 100% welshmen involved in the regions and nothing else at all?

Where do you stand on Jake Ball (or Jason Jones Hughes before him)? Welsh qualified through blood, but not really spent much time living here? Are they prure enough for you?

by Cardiff Dave Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:51 am

Kingshu wrote:Cheers ScarletSpiderman,
I though it was to do with matchday squad.

Up to 6 + 2 projects does seam like alot to me though, I'd say the WRU would want this reduced.

Here you go Kingshu. The following is from the participation agreement.

"Match squads for all Regional games are intended to contain on average at least 17 players qualified to play for Wales out of the 22 or 23 named from now on.
There is a commitment to reduce the number of non-Welsh qualified players in each Region (excluding those in the course of qualifying to play for Wales) down to no more than six with the ambition for that ratio to reduce further.

* agreement that every Regional match squad is intended to contain an average of at least 17 Welsh qualified players from now on, increasing to at least 19 over the term of the agreement

* agreement that a six non Welsh qualified player plus two 'time serving player' limit in Regional squads will be honoured. This is intended to fall to a minimum total of six including 'time serving players' by season 2013/14

* agreed release of Regional squad players for Welsh international Sevens duty.

The Regions will release up to two players each to a core Wales Sevens squad which could be made up to 10 players with some included from other leagues or structures."

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

Also, anyone know why Ireland doesn't appear to have a 7s squad?

by Cardiff Dave Thu 11 Apr 2013, 9:57 am

Allty wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:
If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

Yes but allty not all young developing players will play for the welsh iternational team mind.
Our system is great and as I said before these signings are NOT going to prevent players coming through, they are just going to help us whilst they do

SS They are certainly not going to stop potential internationals coming through but they will block the guys who are not going to be stars but will, given game time become honest regional players.

Maybe I should have made this point sooner

What about WQ "squad fillers" doing the bed blocking?

by Kingshu Thu 11 Apr 2013, 10:10 am

Cheers Cardiff Dave

a mix of both match day squad and max numbers, fair enough of WRU

IRFU decided that 7's wasn't a viaable option.

IRFU put money into wolfhounds team for development, WRU decided not to have an 'A' team but do have a 7's team.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 11 Apr 2013, 10:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:I do not mind to many NWQ Scarlet, but they must be quality, and they must have something to offer, not just squad fillers and unknown players we have never heard of.

Agreed and I suppose the same criteria should apply when signing Welsh players or are the regions bringing in personnel, not because of their ability, but simply because they are Welsh? I'm guessing they probably are to some extent.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 10:24 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I do not mind to many NWQ Scarlet, but they must be quality, and they must have something to offer, not just squad fillers and unknown players we have never heard of.

Agreed and I suppose the same criteria should apply when signing Welsh players or are the regions bringing in personnel, not because of their ability, but simply because they are Welsh? I'm guessing they probably are to some extent.

With the current cash situation at the regions it seems to be a case of getting together the best possible 23 man squad, and then signing a handfull of quality utility players (likes of Tovey at the Blues, Maule/S Shingler at the Scarlets, Isaacs at the Ospreys etc) and finally just padding outt he rest of hte squad with the best you can pick up on a penuts contract. I guess that is one of the problems as these penuts players tend to either be of a rather low quality or just kids with no experience whatsoever.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 11 Apr 2013, 10:32 am

Dowlais, perhaps you'll answer my question: should I be happy with the Dragons losing more games than they win as long as we're fielding an almost totally Welsh or Wales-qualified team?

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:25 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Allty wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:
If we have 6 OP's in each squad its 24 places unavailable to our developing players. That is one starting squad in my humble opinion.

The argument about these guys developing our talent whilst having some credence is not really the case. It might have held some water when the likes of Marshal etc were around but these second rate mercenaries have little to offer.

Yes but allty not all young developing players will play for the welsh iternational team mind.
Our system is great and as I said before these signings are NOT going to prevent players coming through, they are just going to help us whilst they do

SS They are certainly not going to stop potential internationals coming through but they will block the guys who are not going to be stars but will, given game time become honest regional players.

Maybe I should have made this point sooner
What about WQ "squad fillers" doing the bed blocking?

Who are these bed blockers?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:33 am

Alty welsh squad filler that are blocking the way include the likes of-:

Jon Edwards (blocking Dan Thomas),
Aled Thomas (blocking Jordan Williams, and until recently Owen Williams),
Joe Bearman (blocking Morgan Allen)
Johnathan Thomas (blocking Morgan Allen, James King, Lloyd Peers)
Gavin Evans (blocking Corey Allen)
Daf Hewittt (blocking Owen Williams, playing in the right place)

by Allty Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:40 am

Not in my opinion these players are there by right and it is up to the younger players to become better than them.

This is very different to fighting for a place against imports

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:47 am

I wish I could agree with you, but look at that list of players again, not all of them have been with their region since the start of their career.

Joe Bearman was imported to the Ospreys from the Dragons, and Cornish Pirates before that, so even though he is WQ he is what you classed as unacceptable earlier (something about why not just sign up a bunch of NZ kids, and the residency thing is all wrong?).

Gavin Evans ended up at the Blues via the Scarlets, and has been squad filler right up until this season, even though he was internationally capped back in '07.

Aled Thomas was ditched once before by the Scarlets for not being good enough, and was also ditched by the Dragons after that too, and was only brought in to cover the fly half berth during the RWC and internationals.

So seeing as all of these players have been imported to the regions, I can not see how you can judge them any differently than if they were NWQ. If I were to adjust that list to read Jerry Collins (instead of Bearman), Casey Lualala (instead of Evans), and Regan King (instead of Thomas), as they were all recent NWQs in those teams, would that be any different?

by LordDowlais Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:55 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, perhaps you'll answer my question: should I be happy with the Dragons losing more games than they win as long as we're fielding an almost totally Welsh or Wales-qualified team?

FFS, you and StoneMotif really need to take that bag of spuds off your shoulders, I am not against bringing in NWQ players, I am against bring NWQ players who offer bugger all to to Welsh rugby. StoneMotif made a comment about Burton and what he has achieved and can offer, well lets take a look at it shall we, the man is 33yrs of age, if he was any good he would not have left Australia to play in Italy, and what exactly has he achieved ? Then at the Blues, we have players like Campese Ma'Fu and Kyrichou(spelling) what in the name of good can these pair offer ? At the Ospreys we have a young Moldovan, why ? Stowers, why ? At the Scarlets we have Adriaanse who has only made 13 apperieances all season come on we can do better than this surely.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 11 Apr 2013, 12:00 pm

So we should either continue with all-Welsh players or spend money we don't have on NWQ players who really wouldn't want to come to us anyway.

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