Regional Rugby, NWQs, Development & The Way Forward

First topic message reminder :

Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Scrumdown wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Bluesman

It is the OWNERS of the regions

Who owns Cardiff Blues?

Cardiff rfc

Agreed.

Scrumdown wrote:Participation agreement signed in 2009 was for 5 years and comprised of:

£9million per year sponsorship and tv money from competitions that regions participate in: total of £45million over 5 years.

£6million per year for player release, nwq player limits: total of £30 million over 5 years.

£3million per year direct funding into wru academies. Total of £15 million over 5 years. So this is in addition!

total funding over 5 years per participation agreement is nearly £80million!!

That is a staggering amount of money and the regioms are still begging for more financial support and your saying YES lets give them more....no questions asked, no conditions!! MUG!!!

Are you off your head?

80m / 5 years = £16m per season / 4 regions = £4m..

The sums are off the regions get £3.5m.

The Scottish teams get £4.5m each, the English get £5.5m each and the Irish big 3 get £6m each. How the hell can the Regions be expected to compete when they get so little compared to the other teams?

The regions get £4million per year but work on a self imposed budget of £3.5million. They also get financial support for their academies worth £750k each per year so £4.75million per year in total.

So dragons get more than glasgow yet are hammered by 50 points at home due to poor management.

Funding in total is similar to irish provinces, just that connacht and ulster get less than leinster and munster.

Personally I'm for the most part on the side of the WRU over this.

Wales is not a rich country and yes the WRU did actually generate a few million extra this year.

However what do the WRU do with that money?
They have RGC1404 screaming to be made a professional team, and for much needed investment up in the North.
Union is on the front foot, with RGC getting 1,000-1,500 fans for each home game in division 1 East. While rugby Leagues Wrexham based Celtic Crusaders have dropped to 600-700 fans per game.

Do they try and set up a new region in Pontypridd, Valleys rugby? they are making noises.

Do they invest in grass roots rugby?

Or do they simply give the regions a bit extra so instead of some Welsh internationals earning £250k a year, they will now get £300k a year?
But still some way off the £400-£500k a year they can get in France!

For me it's simple, the regions sign a legally binding agreement for several years. THEY agreed to those terms.

Then after 1 season they moan and complain about the terms of it, the WRU often compramise and do their best to help out. Last time they renegotiated the deal early, and told the regions "we can only generate money if Wales play more games", the regions accepted this so the 4th November international was added.

Now that's played we have the coaches complaining that's it's not fair because they have less preperation time for the Heinaken Cup after the November series finishes.

Then when their knocked out they complain that they have less money than everyone else. Well the WRU can only generate more money from playing more games, so maybe we should add a 5th game in November, because it's the only way the WRU can generate money, while the regions are incapable of doing it themselves.

The truth is no one gives a damn about club or regional rugby in Wales. Even pre-regional rugby only had crowds of 2,000-3,000 or so, and the legendary 10,000+ crowds only happened in big Christmas, or new year derbies, or in the Cardiff and Swansea rebel season in the 90's.

The Welsh rugby season starts and ends with the 6 Nations, and the sooner people realise this the better. We will never compete with France or England for money.
Neither can we simply magic money out of thin air, join the English premiership if we can, if not then just accept the situation.

Scrumdown wrote:Participation agreement signed in 2009 was for 5 years and comprised of:

£9million per year sponsorship and tv money from competitions that regions participate in: total of £45million over 5 years.

£6million per year for player release, nwq player limits: total of £30 million over 5 years.

£3million per year direct funding into wru academies. Total of £15 million over 5 years. So this is in addition!

total funding over 5 years per participation agreement is nearly £80million!!

That is a staggering amount of money and the regioms are still begging for more financial support and your saying YES lets give them more....no questions asked, no conditions!! MUG!!!

I would say that the WRU should show some bellhooks and meet with RRW through PRGB and so they can all start bloody talking to each other.

Roger the Dodgerer, 5 December 2012.

"The formation of the new Professional Regional Game Board is a landmark moment in the history of Welsh rugby," added Lewis.
"By working together, we will create a unity of purpose for Welsh professional rugby which will be underpinned by collective management, enhanced with greater central resources and structured to ensure effective decision-making.
"The PRGB will play a significant role in helping regional rugby make real progress, both on and off the field, in the years ahead."

Scrumdown wrote:The regions get £4million per year but work on a self imposed budget of £3.5million. They also get financial support for their academies worth £750k each per year so £4.75million per year in total.

So dragons get more than glasgow yet are hammered by 50 points at home due to poor management.

Funding in total is similar to irish provinces, just that connacht and ulster get less than leinster and munster.

The Union only gives the Ospreys £150k a season for their academy, while the Ospreys actually spend £700k on community rugby.
Though it's believed this figure could include money given the the Welsh Premiership clubs.

Shifty wrote:Personally I'm for the most part on the side of the WRU over this.

Wales is not a rich country and yes the WRU did actually generate a few million extra this year.

However what do the WRU do with that money?
They have RGC1404 screaming to be made a professional team, and for much needed investment up in the North.
Union is on the front foot, with RGC getting 1,000-1,500 fans for each home game in division 1 East. While rugby Leagues Wrexham based Celtic Crusaders have dropped to 600-700 fans per game.

Do they try and set up a new region in Pontypridd, Valleys rugby? they are making noises.

Do they invest in grass roots rugby?

Or do they simply give the regions a bit extra so instead of some Welsh internationals earning £250k a year, they will now get £300k a year?
But still some way off the £400-£500k a year they can get in France!

For me it's simple, the regions sign a legally binding agreement for several years. THEY agreed to those terms.

Then after 1 season they moan and complain about the terms of it, the WRU often compramise and do their best to help out. Last time they renegotiated the deal early, and told the regions "we can only generate money if Wales play more games", the regions accepted this so the 4th November international was added.

Now that's played we have the coaches complaining that's it's not fair because they have less preperation time for the Heinaken Cup after the November series finishes.

Then when their knocked out they complain that they have less money than everyone else. Well the WRU can only generate more money from playing more games, so maybe we should add a 5th game in November, because it's the only way the WRU can generate money, while the regions are incapable of doing it themselves.

The truth is no one gives a damn about club or regional rugby in Wales. Even pre-regional rugby only had crowds of 2,000-3,000 or so, and the legendary 10,000+ crowds only happened in big Christmas, or new year derbies, or in the Cardiff and Swansea rebel season in the 90's.

The Welsh rugby season starts and ends with the 6 Nations, and the sooner people realise this the better. We will never compete with France or England for money.
Neither can we simply magic money out of thin air, join the English premiership if we can, if not then just accept the situation.

Agreed.

Trying to compete with france and england in terms of salaries is a waste of time but this is the only solution that RRW are offering.

We have to accept that we may have to be the holland of rugby i.e. successfull at international level because our structures and systems produce talented rugby players but struggle at club level due to population and commercial challenges. And what is wrong with that?

After all, international rugby is still and will always remain he biggest game in rugby.

Scrumdown wrote:Participation agreement signed in 2009 was for 5 years and comprised of:

£9million per year sponsorship and tv money from competitions that regions participate in: total of £45million over 5 years.

A shat deal that basically gives away the region's product for free and restricts kick off times to those the fans don't want.

Scrumdown wrote:£6million per year for player release, nwq player limits: total of £30 million over 5 years.

Note how the largest part of this chunk relates to the nwq limit, which restricts player recruitment by the regions to a tiny, over-inflated in value pool of Welsh players. Only a small fraction directly relates to player release.

Scrumdown wrote:
£3million per year direct funding into wru academies.

Wrong.

Scrumdown wrote: Total of £15 million over 5 years. So this is in addition!

total funding over 5 years per participation agreement is nearly £80million!!

That is a staggering amount of money and the regioms are still begging for more financial support and your saying YES lets give them more....no questions asked, no conditions!! MUG!!!

You either can't read of you're ffwcin simple. Even if we were to follow the Scrumdown method and totally remove fact from reality, it could be 800 million and it still wouldn't mean sweet bugger all if all your competitors are getting a third on top plus and you have no means of generating extra revenue! Cue meaningless rant about superclubs or some bullshite, why not just save everyone reading that drivel and go and beat some sense into yourself with a spade?

Scrumdown wrote:The regions get £4million per year but work on a self imposed budget of £3.5million. They also get financial support for their academies worth £750k each per year so £4.75million per year in total.

So dragons get more than glasgow yet are hammered by 50 points at home due to poor management.

Funding in total is similar to irish provinces, just that connacht and ulster get less than leinster and munster.

The thing is though some academy players/youngsters, whilst not being paid that much tend to suddenly burst onto the scene seemingly out of nowhere and end up commanding huge salaries almost overnight ie Roberts and 1/2. I remember watching these 2 slogging it for the Rags, then what seemed like a blink of an eye, they were on telly, in the shop window and working wonders for the bloos. Who provides the £ cushion? I suspect the benefactors must do. Cuthbert?

Stone motif,

If it you had a brain you'd be dangerous! Luckily you are one of those dragons supporters who has been brainwashed by hazell and co into believing that a 50 point thrashing at home to glasgow is all roger lewis fault and nothing to do with a lack of competence at board level.

Who in the hell said the regions can't generate extra revenue? Only the Bar Steward WRU! How did the money maker the O's had planned against Tonga go after? More than one senior figure in England has expressed support for more meaningful Anglo-Welsh fixtures recently and a portion of the BT money specifically relates to cross-border competition.

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

If it you had a brain you'd be dangerous! Luckily you are one of those dragons supporters who has been brainwashed by hazell and co into believing that a 50 point thrashing at home to glasgow is all roger lewis fault and nothing to do with a lack of competence at board level.

It's called reading the facts and making an informed decision. Answer the points or stop clogging up the board with your biased regurgitated Western Fail drivel.

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

If it you had a brain you'd be dangerous! Luckily you are one of those dragons supporters who has been brainwashed by hazell and co into believing that a 50 point thrashing at home to glasgow is all roger lewis fault and nothing to do with a lack of competence at board level.

It's called reading the facts and making an informed decision. Answer the points or stop clogging up the board with your biased regurgitated Western Fail drivel.

Shifty wrote:

The truth is no one gives a damn about club or regional rugby in Wales. Even pre-regional rugby only had crowds of 2,000-3,000 or so, and the legendary 10,000+ crowds only happened in big Christmas, or new year derbies, or in the Cardiff and Swansea rebel season in the 90's.

Not quite true.
Cardiff v Newport at CAP, circa 2000-ish, 17,000 in attendance on a Friday night and it wasn't even Xmas, but it was very, very cold. Everybody on the terracing was crammed in shoulder to shoulder with no room to lift a pint even if you had one and the Police were called to persuade fans to shift from the steps of the North terrace but they ultimately failed. I know all this because I was there and remember it well. Jinx was OH by the way.
Compare this to a Bloos (Cardiff) versus Dregs (Newport) game these days.

Stone Motif wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

If it you had a brain you'd be dangerous! Luckily you are one of those dragons supporters who has been brainwashed by hazell and co into believing that a 50 point thrashing at home to glasgow is all roger lewis fault and nothing to do with a lack of competence at board level.

It's called reading the facts and making an informed decision. Answer the points or stop clogging up the board with your biased regurgitated Western Fail drivel.

One of the reasons that the regions don't make money is that they are poorly run businesses as evidenced by the pwc report. But, to be fair, rugby clubs in general do not make money. They rely on benefactors to survive.

Even harlequins and saracens in leafy london make losses each year.

So the regions need to find other ways of making money so that they can finance their loss making rugby activities. Instead of wasting the transefer fee received from george north on a foreign signing, the scarlets should consider investing the £250k in land or property that generates rental income that can be used to subsidise salary costs in the long term etc

Scrumdown wrote:

One of the reasons that the regions don't make money is that they are poorly run businesses as evidenced by the pwc report. But, to be fair, rugby clubs in general do not make money. They rely on benefactors to survive.

Even harlequins and saracens in leafy london make losses each year.

So the regions need to find other ways of making money so that they can finance their loss making rugby activities. Instead of wasting the transefer fee received from george north on a foreign signing, the scarlets should consider investing the £250k in land or property that generates rental income that can be used to subsidise salary costs in the long term etc

One has done by moving back home and is now beginning to make the place work which they should have done many moons ago and just as a reminder......

"Mr Nott said that in the shorter to medium term, the new stadium offered potential for increased income streams.
This will allow us to well overtake the rental we have taken on."

LOL. Mr Nott methinks spoke with a very big fork tongue.

Scrumdown wrote:
Funding in total is similar to irish provinces, just that connacht and ulster get less than leinster and munster.

Ulster were getting the most for a few years and maybe still are. The IRFU wanted them to catch up with Munster and Leinster. Connacht still get the least funding which is a joke IMO.

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

If it you had a brain you'd be dangerous! Luckily you are one of those dragons supporters who has been brainwashed by hazell and co into believing that a 50 point thrashing at home to glasgow is all roger lewis fault and nothing to do with a lack of competence at board level.

Only half the blame shewerly?

Scrumdown,
I've tried to explain politely as have others, you have even been given actuall quotes to facts attributable to both sides of he argument, yet you continue to spout figures with no bearing and have yet to back anything up with hard fact unless I have missed something in this shambles of a thread, yet you still have the audacity to criticise other peoples intelligence!!!
Kettle and pot anybody?


The real issue here though guys incase you haven't noticed, is not so much about the purse strings and what funds get spent on what, its about who gets control of the professional game in Wales.
At the moment I trust the private backers before the WRU as far as the pro game is concerned, primarily as I believe my own region the Scarlets would be downgraded into one of 2 feeder clubs initially and eventually forcibly merged with the O's when the powers at the WRU decide it suits them, this is just my personal opinion but with no hard facts to go on its all I have.
If the WRU concentrated on the grass roots game as is one of its main remits then it would not be running scared from RRW and would already have called the meeting of the full board as requested by RRW. Grass roots rugby in Wales is struggling and that is not the fault of the regions it is down to falling intrest, that intrest will not rekindle itself nor will it be generated by crowdsof 75,000 mainly socialites attending games in the millenium stadium, if the WRU bothered to tackle this problem then it would have the backing of the member clubs IMHO wthout all the public mudslinging in an attempt to drum up common support.
Do I believe the regions are seeking to gain control of the WRU?
No I do not as I do not believe for 1 minute that the IRB would ever sanction anything along those lines.
However the WRU hve publicly stated they want full control of the regions but then wonder why the current regional owners do not trust them. go figure!!

2ndtimeround wrote:Scrumdown,
I've tried to explain politely as have others, you have even been given actuall quotes to facts attributable to both sides of he argument, yet you continue to spout figures with no bearing and have yet to back anything up with hard fact unless I have missed something in this shambles of a thread, yet you still have the audacity to criticise other peoples intelligence!!!
Kettle and pot anybody?


The real issue here though guys incase you haven't noticed, is not so much about the purse strings and what funds get spent on what, its about who gets control of the professional game in Wales.
At the moment I trust the private backers before the WRU as far as the pro game is concerned, primarily as I believe my own region the Scarlets would be downgraded into one of 2 feeder clubs initially and eventually forcibly merged with the O's when the powers at the WRU decide it suits them, this is just my personal opinion but with no hard facts to go on its all I have.
If the WRU concentrated on the grass roots game as is one of its main remits then it would not be running scared from RRW and would already have called the meeting of the full board as requested by RRW. Grass roots rugby in Wales is struggling and that is not the fault of the regions it is down to falling intrest, that intrest will not rekindle itself nor will it be generated by crowdsof 75,000 mainly socialites attending games in the millenium stadium, if the WRU bothered to tackle this problem then it would have the backing of the member clubs IMHO wthout all the public mudslinging in an attempt to drum up common support.
Do I believe the regions are seeking to gain control of the WRU?
No I do not as I do not believe for 1 minute that the IRB would ever sanction anything along those lines.
However the WRU hve publicly stated they want full control of the regions but then wonder why the current regional owners do not trust them. go figure!!

If wru are expected to provide the majority of funding, then why should they not have more control of the professional game? If regions want more control than they must become more financially independent of the WRU. They are becoming less independent because the benefactors are no longer willing to fund them to the same extent as they used to.

So, you are right it is all about control.

But you do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of risk and reward. i.e. if the wru take more financial risks by investing more heavily in the regions then they need more in return, not less!

But you are obviously not from a legal or financial background and therefore like other supporters it is probably best if you stick to discussing purely rugby matters.

Scrumdown wrote:
One of the reasons that the regions don't make money is that they are poorly run businesses as evidenced by the pwc report. But, to be fair, rugby clubs in general do not make money. They rely on benefactors to survive.

Even harlequins and saracens in leafy london make losses each year.

So the regions need to find other ways of making money so that they can finance their loss making rugby activities. Instead of wasting the transefer fee received from george north on a foreign signing, the scarlets should consider investing the £250k in land or property that generates rental income that can be used to subsidise salary costs in the long term etc

Contradicting yourself again my old chum? Funny how last I heard two of the regions are forecast to break even at least this year. They also agreed to submit to quarterly reviews of their practice by the PRGB, as recommended by the PwC report you pro Rog types throw about as if it wasn't as damning of the WRU. If the businesses are as poorly run as you claim, why didn't PwC recommend a change in their senior management outright? You really don't get this at all, do you?

Scrumdown wrote:If wru are expected to provide the majority of funding, then why should they not have more control of the professional game? If regions want more control than they must become more financially independent of the WRU. They are becoming less independent because the benefactors are no longer willing to fund them to the same extent as they used to.

So, you are right it is all about control.

But you do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of risk and reward. i.e. if the wru take more financial risks by investing more heavily in the regions then they need more in return, not less!

But you are obviously not from a legal or financial background and therefore like other supporters it is probably best if you stick to discussing purely rugby matters.

So the same doesn't apply to the regional owners who are actually the ones taking all the risks but recieving nothing in return then? You are obviously not from a financial or legal background so It's probably best if you stuck to discussions around spangly cowboy hats. 2ndtime has a much better understanding of it all than you've demonstrated by far you arrogant fool.

Stone motif,

WRU did not ask the regional owners to take those financial risks. So why should the wru compensate them for their financial losses?

Because 1. without them, the whole pro tier will collapse and despite their attempts to muddy the waters, the WRU can't afford to replace them. They're strangling the golden goose. Team Wales would not have won the championships of the last decade without the regional players. The financial losses have in the main been made for the good of the Welsh national team not the regions. 2. The WRU are paying off their banking covenants over and above the agreed amount and are therefore placing their own self interest before that of rugby below national level. 3. You seem to keep going off on a tangent about the regional indebtedness to their benefactors. If the regions fold, the debt (if any, if the benefactors were in this to make money that would be absurd) would be lost too. The salary cap was introduced to demonstrate to the WRU what the pro tier would look like without the private money, not to cream off the extras to service loan repayments as you've clumsily tried to insinuate. The regions have quite clearly stated this is only about money due to the shackles they operate under and the fact that the WRU provides far less central funding for the game than it's competitor unions.

Scrumdown, no your right I'm not from a legal background. I'm a Lead manager, working in Retail, responsible for an operation with a turn over a little over 60,000k pa.
So obviously I know nothing of finance.

The WRU do not fund the regional game, they merely re-distibute the income earned by the regions through TV revenue and competition money.
The part of the money payed over and above this is conditional on the regions doing what the WRU want in terms of developing players for the national team.
The bulk of the money earnt by the WRU is from the international fixtures which is earnt using players contracted to the regions.
The big problem with the WRU having control of anything at the moment is it is not achieving its own remit of growing the game in Wales,the grass roots game is dying and that is what the WRU should be worried about, the WRU executive is not the open commitee at the head of all the Welsh clubs as it is meant to be, it is just another little group of men trying to sieze power for themselves.

Thats me finished trying to explain to a teenager with relatives in the WRU.

2ndtimeround wrote:Scrumdown, no your right I'm not from a legal background. I'm a Lead manager, working in Retail, responsible for an operation with a turn over a little over 60,000k pa.
So obviously I know nothing of finance.

The WRU do not fund the regional game, they merely re-distibute the income earned by the regions through TV revenue and competition money.
The part of the money payed over and above this is conditional on the regions doing what the WRU want in terms of developing players for the national team.
The bulk of the money earnt by the WRU is from the international fixtures which is earnt using players contracted to the regions.
The big problem with the WRU having control of anything at the moment is it is not achieving its own remit of growing the game in Wales,the grass roots game is dying and that is what the WRU should be worried about, the WRU executive is not the open commitee at the head of all the Welsh clubs as it is meant to be, it is just another little group of men trying to sieze power for themselves.

Thats me finished trying to explain to a teenager with relatives in the WRU.

But the tv money and competition revenue would be available to the regions whomever owned them. I.e. the bbc does not pay for tv rights because it has a high regard for individuals such as peter thomas or martyn hazell. It would want the tv rights, whether it is p thomas, wru or you or I that owns the regions.

So as far as I am concerned, the benefactors who no longer wish to invest in regional rugby are just an unnecessary middle man who do not add value to regional rugby. In fact, as the pwc report revealed under their leadership poor management has been the norm.

I'm not necessarily in favour of wru ownership of the regions, but you have to accept, if there is to be even more funding coming from the wru, then in return, they are right to expect more control.

I would not object to more control of the Regional game by the WRU if they where an open an honest organisation that could be trusted, unfotunately they clearly are not and are run by Roger Lewis who has no Rugby background at all.

Once the WRU gets its own house in order then it will get a far more welcome reaction from the majority of rugby fans not just Team Wales fans.

I dont actually mind who owns the Scarlets as long as they have the best intrest of the Scarlets at heart. At the moment I believe the private backers that own the majority of the clubs shares care far more about the future of the club than the WRU executive board.
One proved that quite clearly when he gifted every season ticket holder £100 of free shares with a season ticket in 2011.

As for the supposed finding of the PWC report, has anyone actually found a copy?
I think you wll find that it was quoted as poor management been evident at some clubs also, not stated as been the norm!
And yes the TV money would be there regardles of who owned the regions but how does that translate as the WRU are funding the regions.


The regions are not asking for extra funding to repay benefactors, they are seeking support for players wages, or at least that is the way I have understood the current situation. Central contracts have been rejected as the WRU then want to pick who plays where. I dont have the answer to how things can be made to work for the benefit of Welsh rugby as a whole but I do know that as long as Roger Lewis cant have his own way then we will not get an agreement. A full meeting of the WRU seems to be the only option that will clear up this mess.

Scrumdown's whole argument is based on a snippet he's cherry picked from a report he's never even seen. What made it into the press is what the BBC Wales Wru Pravda want people to see. You can counter it quite easily by doing the same and pointing out that the same report also concluded that the WRU cannot currently afford to take over the regions or centrally contract players.

What was actually revealed also mentioned 'historically' poor management. All of the regions have had new execs appointed in the last two years and significant changes at board level. Do we just assume this is still the case? For what it's worth the worst collective bit of decision making I've seen from the regions in ten years was accepting the crumbs the WRU chose to throw them in the form of the participation agreement. Who knows, perhaps that's what the report referred to as poor management.

Yes it's irrelevant to an extent who owns the regions but where are the alternatives? Are there oil sheiks and far eastern billionaires waiting in the wings desperate to get their hands on a top flight Welsh rugby club? Maybe in Scrumdown's world.

There is far and away sufficient acumen and resources, financial and otherwise, on the boards of our regions for them all to be successful if the WRU take off the shackles. Certainly as good as is on the current board of the WRU. But no, these multi-millionaires must all be idiots who throw their money away for the chance to be involved in a minority sport at the back end of Europe, all for the Poopie and giggles.

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

WRU did not ask the regional owners to take those financial risks. So why should the wru compensate them for their financial losses?

They sort of did though. They forced the pro clubs in Wales into regional rugby. Forced them to merge or change into the 4 regions that we have today. Yet the WRU didn't have the backbone/balls/resources/desire to take over the whole lot and run the thing that they put in place. What were these benefactors meant to do when the WRU forced through their changes? Just walk away from the clubs that they'd been involved with for years? No, they stayed and put their money in, again, to a system/structure that was thrust upon them and which the overlords forcing the change could not and did not support them in.

Just to add, I can't imagine it happening like this in any other area of business. Just imagine: you own a business and the governing body comes along and says they want a change for the better of the sector so you have to merge with the business up the road and create a new business. You still have to run the original businesses, which will now be downgraded to a semi-professional business, but then you have to run the new merged business too. You'll do as we say or we'll shut you down. No arguments. But we won't get involved, apart from looking over your shoulder and making all of the rules. We'll collect the money that you earn and distribute it when we like. Them's the rules!

Griff wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Stone motif,

WRU did not ask the regional owners to take those financial risks. So why should the wru compensate them for their financial losses?

They sort of did though. They forced the pro clubs in Wales into regional rugby. Forced them to merge or change into the 4 regions that we have today. Yet the WRU didn't have the backbone/balls/resources/desire to take over the whole lot and run the thing that they put in place. What were these benefactors meant to do when the WRU forced through their changes? Just walk away from the clubs that they'd been involved with for years? No, they stayed and put their money in, again, to a system/structure that was thrust upon them and which the overlords forcing the change could not and did not support them in.

Griff wrote:Just to add, I can't imagine it happening like this in any other area of business. Just imagine: you own a business and the governing body comes along and says they want a change for the better of the sector so you have to merge with the business up the road and create a new business. You still have to run the original businesses, which will now be downgraded to a semi-professional business, but then you have to run the new merged business too. You'll do as we say or we'll shut you down. No arguments. But we won't get involved, apart from looking over your shoulder and making all of the rules. We'll collect the money that you earn and distribute it when we like. Them's the rules!

Your analogy is a rather ludicrous one as in the real world, it is accepted that the aim of every business is to maximise the wealth of its shareholders. This is not the aim of rugby or its govening bodies.

Scrumdown wrote:

Griff wrote:Just to add, I can't imagine it happening like this in any other area of business. Just imagine: you own a business and the governing body comes along and says they want a change for the better of the sector so you have to merge with the business up the road and create a new business. You still have to run the original businesses, which will now be downgraded to a semi-professional business, but then you have to run the new merged business too. You'll do as we say or we'll shut you down. No arguments. But we won't get involved, apart from looking over your shoulder and making all of the rules. We'll collect the money that you earn and distribute it when we like. Them's the rules!

Your analogy is a rather ludicrous one as in the real world, it is accepted that the aim of every business is to maximise the wealth of its shareholders. This is not the aim of rugby or its govening bodies.

Scrum mate, Ive been reading through and every one of your arguments falls down, it's backed up by so called facts leaked by the WRU themselves.

Little advice, don't swallow everything someone puts in your mouth, think about it

Oh so now we're back to it being about rugby are we? You could give Chairman Rog lessons in goalpost shifting

Bluesman,

Facts are regions are poorly run entities. Just look at the cardiff arms park pitch for a start. It's a disgrace. Or is that RLewis too?

Why can't the cardiff blues build any kind of relationship with pontypridd? Or is that ponty's fault?

It's always someone else's fault with the regions and their only answers seem to be that they need more money to pay higher salaries for better players. This is not the long term solution. Need a change.

Scrumdown wrote:Bluesman,

Facts are regions are poorly run entities. Just look at the cardiff arms park pitch for a start. It's a disgrace. Or is that RLewis too?

Why can't the cardiff blues build any kind of relationship with pontypridd? Or is that ponty's fault?

It's always someone else's fault with the regions and their only answers seem to be that they need more money to pay higher salaries for better players. This is not the long term solution. Need a change.

So the Warriors going under, and the 2 bitter rivals of Cardiff and Ponty being told to merge is the blues fault??? Or did the WRU sell the Warriors down the river and attemot a quick fix that was never going to work. Ponty have no intention of supporting the blues, and fair play to them for sticking to their guns!!

Is the pitch the be all and end all for you, in which case the WRU must be a joke because the MS pitch is one of the worst int pitches around?!

Scrumdown wrote:Bluesman,

Facts are regions are poorly run entities. Just look at the cardiff arms park pitch for a start. It's a disgrace. Or is that RLewis too?

Why can't the cardiff blues build any kind of relationship with pontypridd? Or is that ponty's fault?

It's always someone else's fault with the regions and their only answers seem to be that they need more money to pay higher salaries for better players. This is not the long term solution. Need a change.

That would be the same Ponty that are perfectly happy to play Blues Academy players yeah? The ones who told the Blues to do one when they wanted to play a fixture at Sardis Road?

And speaking of Ponty, I'll post this again in the hope the message gets through:

http://www.cardiffblues.com/community/regional_clubs_clubs_in_the_blues_region.php

Dozens of clubs in RCT on that list, dozens. The notable absentee is Pontypridd RFC, who are choosing not to be there. More fool them - and more fool you, Scrumdown, for concluding that the Blues are ignoring RCT just because Pontypridd RFC don't want to know.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And speaking of Ponty, I'll post this again in the hope the message gets through:

http://www.cardiffblues.com/community/regional_clubs_clubs_in_the_blues_region.php

Dozens of clubs in RCT on that list, dozens. The notable absentee is Pontypridd RFC, who are choosing not to be there. More fool them - and more fool you, Scrumdown, for concluding that the Blues are ignoring RCT just because Pontypridd RFC don't want to know.

They've reappeared. Have another look.

So they have. The Blues are doing a crap job of ignoring Ponty, aren't they?

Does anyone know any more about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22147523

The regions are due to meet the board of the WRU, but there are no further details. Not a dickie bird about it on the WRU website, funnily enough.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Does anyone know any more about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22147523

The regions are due to meet the board of the WRU, but there are no further details. Not a dickie bird about it on the WRU website, funnily enough.

No details anywhere that I can find other than the two sides have finally agreed to talk. It's a start to finding a way forward I suppose.

Latest from the Fail;
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/delme-parfitt-wru-not-solely-2592739

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So they have. The Blues are doing a crap job of ignoring Ponty, aren't they?

I wonder if their reappearance on that list has anything to do with the recent apparent collapse of the VR initiative, which Ponty openly supported?

Scrumdown wrote:Bluesman,

Facts are regions are poorly run entities. Just look at the cardiff arms park pitch for a start. It's a disgrace. Or is that RLewis too?

Why can't the cardiff blues build any kind of relationship with pontypridd? Or is that ponty's fault?

It's always someone else's fault with the regions and their only answers seem to be that they need more money to pay higher salaries for better players. This is not the long term solution. Need a change.

Cardiff Blues were an omnishambles for a long time well before anybody had thought of the word. But at least now we are seeing improvements with the appointment of Holland and the end of the hugely divisive and costly CCS property gamble. This season it is predicted that they will generate a small profit. The last time this happened was I believe around about 10 years ago.
The CAP pitch is a mess and the wettest winter on record hasn't helped. However the problem it seems is being addressed with suggestions of installing a plastic pitch although this may be delayed or hinge on whether the WRU purchase CAP or not.
Cardiff Blues do have a kind of relationship with Ponty, but as they are two completely separate entities ie different clubs, it's never going to be a sharing/caring/we're all in it together regional type love-in. Remember, neither the clubs or their supporters wanted to merge in 2003 and as a result they didn't. Then the Warriors happened and the rest is history.
Agreed, changes are needed.

I don't know how much support Valleys Rugby ever had beyond Pontypridd. Then again, I didn't pay too much attention.

It's interesting that it's the board of the WRU the regions will be meeting. It looks to me like they know they're getting nowhere with the executive so they're bypassing them.

Allty wrote:All to do with money and little to do with anything else. This is one huge indictment on the pro game in Wales.

What would you like it to be about? Nationalism?

Its just one more nail in Welsh regional rugby's coffin.

The original regional concept is no more

Allty wrote:Its just one more nail in Welsh regional rugby's coffin.

The original regional concept is no more

The regional concept is incompatable with running pro rugby as a business.

Allty wrote:Its just one more nail in Welsh regional rugby's coffin.

The original regional concept is no more

Not sure where you are coming from, surely the worse nail in the coffin would be keeping hold of players and over stocking your squad in one position at the cost of the rest of the squad?

mikey_philVIII wrote:

Allty wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Right back at you Lord D, only thing worse than ignorance is wilful ignorance

What am I ignorant about then Stone ? Or can it be said that the Dragons are being ignorant of the NWQ player limit that the regions agreed to. How many NWQ players are there at the Dragons these days ? With the few you are signing for next season and with the half a dozen you have now, you could field a first 15 with almost no Welsh players.

Doubtful. The majority of the team would still be welsh, plus you don't know whether any of the signings will be starters. Furthermore I don't see how welsh youth players have been failed. The English have more youth than everyone yet still find the requirement for overseas players.

Doesnt make it right though. If you want to look at a system try NZ and SA as models

Both exceptional models for rugby development however each have their share of overseas players.

I said English teams find a requirement for different players, as have welsh teams and now the dragons. Doesn't really matter if its right or wrong and who are you to decide that anyway? Needs must and moving forward.

I've just been in touch with a number of Kiwi's and hey tell me there are very few non NZ players in any of their leagues.